Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
nakymaton:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 11, 2006, 05:46:17 am ---Another of those bridging scenes double meanings: LaShawn says "....boy, were we behind the times". And the film cuts directly to someone else who's behind the times - Alma Jr., waiting for her daddy and apparently behind the times when it comes to recent developments (ie. Ennis having hooked up with Cassie).
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Really? You think Alma Jr. didn't know Ennis was seeing Cassie? I thought that Jr's expression said "oh, god, not HER again." Whether it's normal teenaged child-of-divorce jealousy, or whether Jr had a particular insight into her father, I don't know. (She seems like a really perceptive kid, doesn't she? I wonder how she would have interacted with Jack, if Ennis had ever given them more than two seconds to interact. I mean, she seems very perceptive, very caring, and very very fond of her father. And yet she's very much a product of her world... marrying a roughneck at age nineteen (!). (I'm a year or two younger than Jr, and grew up in a rural area, and marrying young versus going to college was a huge dividing line between my peers and me.) And, well... the kids I grew up with would not have been accepting of Ennis and Jack. :( I'm not proud of that; I'm ashamed to have grown up surrounded by that. But there it is.)
--- Quote ---"Two guys living together - no way" doesn't only apply to what society at large would think about it, but to what Ennis himself truly believes as well, and the shame he can't manage to shake or alter even when the love of his life is at stake - till it's too late.
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That's how I read Ennis, as well. "Tied up in knots" is a really great way to describe him -- to acknowledge the contradictions between loving Jack (which he certainly does) and all the complicated shame and self-loathing that's there in Ennis as well.
Meryl:
--- Quote ---From Mikaela
I know Ennis uses the tire iron and risk of being killed as his reason for keeping Jack at a distance, but that's not the only or even main reason, IMO. He'd not be that afraid of physical violence and standing up to the threat of physical violence if he'd known himself to be in the right. But he doesn't - some significant part of him thinks they'd be right for coming after him with tire irons, if he should decide to have a go at the "sweet life" that Jack wants. "Two guys living together - no way" doesn't only apply to what society at large would think about it, but to what Ennis himself truly believes as well, and the shame he can't manage to shake or alter even when the love of his life is at stake - till it's too late.
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Too true. I think Ennis suffered from low self-esteem from childhood on (his habit of keeping to himself was a product of it). His marriage helped heal that, gave him an accepted place in society and a wife and children who looked up to him. When he made the decision to continue his homosexual relationship with Jack, he put that in danger.
To preserve his tenuous hold on self-esteem, he had to look down on Jack as one of "those boys" and think of his passion for Jack only as "this thing." If he were to set up housekeeping with Jack, then of course his family and friends would know he was one of "those boys," too. Being the object of their contempt (and by association, his father's) was an insurmountable horror to him, a betrayal of his deepest wish to be accepted and respected in his life.
The fact that he continued to take the risk of meeting Jack over the years was a testimony to how much Jack meant to him. But I do think he blinded himself for a long time to the fact that what he felt for Jack was more than physical passion and friendship. He was forced to acknowledge this by two things: Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis. After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to. He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on June 11, 2006, 09:51:36 am ---That's how I read Ennis, as well. "Tied up in knots" is a really great way to describe him -- to acknowledge the contradictions between loving Jack (which he certainly does) and all the complicated shame and self-loathing that's there in Ennis as well.
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Hey there Nakymaton, Meryl and Mikaela,
Wow, you've all made great points. This topic leads in some pretty depressing directions. :'( The one common denominator I think is just how tormented Ennis is. The knots metaphor seems just right.
--- Quote ---Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis. After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to. He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.
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Meryl, I think this is also very good. I wonder if there was a moment earlier in the film though when Ennis first got a taste of worrying about possibly losing Jack. I've always wondered about the way Ennis says "Jack" so emphatically in the post-divorce fiasco scene. When Jack turns to go Ennis says 'Jack' and has a really concerned look on his face. I mean he's been concerned during this whole encounter, but it seems pretty clear to me that he shifts his worry (appropriately) away from the passing truck to worrying about what he's doing to Jack.
Mikaela:
Amanda, Mel, Meryl: Great and insightful posts. :)
--- Quote from: nakymaton on June 11, 2006, 09:51:36 am ---Really? You think Alma Jr. didn't know Ennis was seeing Cassie? I thought that Jr's expression said "oh, god, not HER again." Whether it's normal teenaged child-of-divorce jealousy, or whether Jr had a particular insight into her father, I don't know. (She seems like a really perceptive kid, doesn't she? I wonder how she would have interacted with Jack, if Ennis had ever given them more than two seconds to interact. I mean, she seems very perceptive, very caring, and very very fond of her father. And yet she's very much a product of her world... marrying a roughneck at age nineteen (!).
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Yes, the bright Alma Jr. marrying at age ninteen is one of the events that really remind me that the world of rural Wyoming in the 1980's does not equal my own experiences and recollection of that time - I'm of an age with Junior and I don't personally know a single person of my age group that got married at that age, whether they contiued their education post high school or not. Marrying in your teens? Nope. Very rarely seen. Someone like Alma Jr. would certainly not have done so. It's one of many little reminders to me that I can't completely relate to and understand this world and this place and the character's background and reactions - however much I'd like to think so, and however much I feel I know all the characters personally. All the more do I appreciate the perspectives of all of you here on this board! :-* And then, the underlying themes are universal at any rate.
That aside, I got the feeling that Junior was happily anticipating a day alone with her dad, and that her heart fell when this woman was sitting in the car. However, Cassie picks up Ennis in 1978 and the Junior/Cassie/Ennis scene is in 1979, so you're right that Junior must have heard of Cassie before then. Perhaps she'd never actuallly *met* her though - until that point in time.
It's intrigueing to try and decipher Junior's words and actions in relation to Cassie, - how much is girlish jealousy and how much is a deeper (perhaps subconscious) understanding that Cassie is not right for Ennis, that he needs someone and something entirely else. Both the " not the marrying kind" line and her asking to be allowed to move in with Ennis could be seen as related to either such interpretation.
I think Jack would have charmed the socks off Junior, if given half the chance, and if she'd been able to look past the "queer" issue for a moment. And I think she would have been able to do that, and her sister too. When beloved family is involved, it's much more difficult to ride the principled high horse. (Doesn't even the Vice President of the USA prove that?) I think his daughters would have loved Ennis even if they'd learned the truth. I like them; - I can't bring myself to believe anything else. Rural Wyoming or no.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 12, 2006, 04:35:41 am ---I think Jack would have charmed the socks off Junior, if given half the chance, and if she'd been able to look past the "queer" issue for a moment. And I think she would have been able to do that, and her sister too. When beloved family is involved, it's much more difficult to ride the principled high horse. (Doesn't even the Vice President of the USA prove that?) I think his daughters would have loved Ennis even if they'd learned the truth. I like them; - I can't bring myself to believe anything else. Rural Wyoming or no.
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Heya,
I like to think that Jack is the type who's really good with kids in general (even though Proulx tells us he never really wanted kids of his own). His concern over Bobby's troubles in school, I'm sure, is meant to show us that Jack's trying to be a responsible parent... and the scene where he lets Bobby drive the tractor for a second certainly shows us that he was fun around kids too. I wonder if Ennis was curious about Jack's family. Jack at least had the insight of getting to meet not only Alma but also the girls... if only briefly.
Ennis's statement to Jack about kids during the second-to-last camping trip has always struck me as odd. So, I'll bring it up here... not quite a double meaning... but a meaning that I wonder about. He comes out with that sort of convoluted, sarcastic remark that goes something like... "Sure, and you could try to convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls. And money would rain down from L.D. Newsome and we could just live together herding sheep and whiskey would flow in the stream..."
When you think about it... this is a really wierd thing for Ennis to even think of... why would Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis's kids under any circumstances? It's sad that Ennis can't wrap his head around any scenario that would allow Jack and Ennis to raise their kids together (this I know would be way too progressive for Ennis to consider or even imagine as a possibility), but still... why is this idea of Jack and Lureen adopting the girls a solution he even imagines (even in his sarcastic state of mind). I truly don't know how to interpret it.
The other sad thing I think, is that even in his sarcasm he realizes that living together with Jack herding sheep was the best time of his life (and that he probably really would like to do that in an ideal world).
:'(
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