Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
southendmd:
--- Quote from: 2robots4u on August 27, 2006, 07:05:57 pm ---Hi all...as I said a number of posts above, I asked a detective friend in a major police department to review certain scenes for me. I received the results a week ago, but due to time, was just able to get the response ready for posting.
His name is John and he told his partners what he was doing and 2 of them wanted to help out, so this turned out far better than I expected. None of the 3 had seen the movie, so I asked that they not view the entire movie first, but to review only specific scenes, then view it in one sweep.
For ease of identification I will use the first initial of all people involved, including characters:
Both male detectives are John; my friend is gay so he is GJ, the other is straight-SJ, and Magaret is M. Jack-J, Ennis-E, Alma-A, Alma Jr.-Jr., Randall-R, Lureen-Lu, Lashawn-La.
Each of the 3 purchased a DVD individually soas not to get 2 from the same place, ending up with 2 full screen, and 1 wide screen. Typical police investigative techniques were employeed.
TS1: a. some viewers reported J and E were holding hands. No, not in the
traditional sense. During the sex act, E places his right hand on top
of the back of J right hand, where it remains until the act ends.
b. Many viewers claim to see J place E hand on his (J) crotch. After both
E and J have sat up, and before J starts to remove his jacket, they
move their hands around a lot trying to establish a hold on each other.
In this struggle, E places his left hand on J left forearm; J begins to move
his arm down and we see some shoulder movement by J. The rest is
out of the viewer's range, below the bottom edge of the film. But by
the process of extrapolation, and the "moment of content" view on
E face, all 3 analysts agree that it is 99% possible that it did occur.
c. When the "Fuck me" line was first mentioned, a few viewers stated
they heard it, but as it got more momentum, more and more claim to
have heard it. After removing all sound from the film, except voice
prints, all 3 analysists agree that it is non-existent.
TS2: The big question is who speaks, and what is said? There is only 1 voice
print in this scene, and he says "I'M sorry" followed by "It's all right, it's
all right. Lie back, Come on". That voice belongs to J.
Reunion Kiss: This scene was analyzed from the moment E begins to descend
the stairs, until he starts back up to introduce J. Again, all
sound, except voice prints, are removed, and both voices are
heard, but only 1 statement each: J says "Son of a bitch" as
they embrace. E looks around for "spys", grabs J by the shirt,
begins to push him to the stairwell, and says "Come here".
Nothing else is there, specifically "later" by E as they separate,
as was suggeted and affirmed to by several viewers.
Closet scene: This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
what was said/not said. The scene was alalyzed from the time
E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.
A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him. It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2. With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said? How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place.
Benefit Dance Scene: This scene was the more difficult to analyze because so
much is going on at one time. M and GJ both agreed that to
understand who says what to whom, you have to pay close
attention to vocal tones (is it sultry, just plain talk, downright
nasty, sarcasism, or in a jocking manner), voice inflextions (the rise and fall
of syllables and key expressions), and eye movement. J eyes dart
around a lot from Lu to La to R, and to off in the distance, but at
the moment when he says "You want to dance?" he is looking
directly at La. SJ agrees to this, but adds that R responds as if
HE were asked. M and GJ respond that R is suprised that J asks
La to dance, the reason for the look on his face, and then the
look he give La when she accepts. After a few more runs through
the machine, SJ finally agrees that J most definitely asks La to
dance, but is still questioning the reaction of R.
So there you have it. Please remember the expression "Don't kill the messenger."
Doug
--- End quote ---
serious crayons:
--- Quote ---Closet scene: This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
what was said/not said. The scene was alalyzed from the time
E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.
A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him. It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2. With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said? How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place.
--- End quote ---
Well, 2robots4u's documentation is nothing if not thorough. But again, I'm willing to believe there's no sound -- as I recall, I lip-read it. True, I haven't watched the movie in 10 years (10 years -- damn!) so take that into account.
But to be blunt (sorry and with all due respect, 2robots4u, if you're lurking) I think his comment No. 1 is lame. Since when are we supposed to take Ennis' external words and behaviors as reflecting his innermost thoughts and feelings? The fact that they don't is practically the whole point of the movie.
Ennis communicates mostly in nonverbal subtleties: His wistful gaze into the distance in the "breaking my back" paving scene, his reaction to Jack's first postcard, his beer guzzling and chain smoking while waiting for Jack to arrive, his nervous glance at the truck going past when Jack drives up from Texas to see him, the very fact that he lets Jack's endearments go unanswered. Or he communicates in metaphorical subtleties: the bear, the cookware floating downriver, the pie in the bus station, the little carved horse, the trailer filled with knives and fans and a coffee pot. When he tells Jack his "sending up a prayer of thanks" is about Jack not bringing his harmonica, are we supposed to take that at face value? "Hunh, I would have thought it had something to do with seeing Jack again, but I guess he just really hates harmonica music."
Of course not. When Jack was alive, Ennis would never, ever say "I love you." He probably wouldn't even let that idea enter his own consciousness. But here we are at the absolute emotional climax of the whole movie -- just after Ennis has told Mr. and Mrs. Twist point blank that he and Jack was good friends, even when it's clear both parents know exactly what kind of friends they was -- and now, with Jack gone forever so it's too late, he finds what is unquestionably the most powerful metaphorical object of the whole movie. In that context, it seems quite possible that he would finally let the thought seep into his brain, that he might even allow himself to silently mumble the words. No, he's not going to shout it from the rooftops or even blurt it out clearly and audibly, or ever ever tell anyone else ever.
If he had -- if he'd said it loud enough for it to be ringingly clear-- the scene would topple into melodrama and sentimentality. It would be like a soap opera scene. It's already pushing the boundaries with the powerful shirts, but Heath mostly undercuts that with a low-key performance that still registers a terrible mixture of grief and regret. In that context, the line could only work if it remained so subtle and ambiguous as to have people still debating it more than 10 years later. ;D
I think if anything this scene should be analyzed by someone extremely skilled in lip reading.
Sason:
I've never heard the "I love you", and never really believed it was there even though people claimed to have heard it.
I have also never seen that post about the forensic examination before, it's most enlightening!
Thanks for finding it, Paul.
Seems it pretty much settles certain 10 year old disputes! :D
milomorris:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 16, 2017, 07:02:47 pm ---When I first became a believer, on about my ninth or tenth viewing, it wasn't that I heard it but felt I saw him mouth the words.
--- End quote ---
Same here. When I first read about the "I love you," I honestly thought I had missed something. So I replayed the scene over and over many times. While I could not say that I heard it, I could see that the words might be there from the motion of Heath's mouth.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: milomorris on June 18, 2017, 04:10:39 pm ---Same here. When I first read about the "I love you," I honestly thought I had missed something. So I replayed the scene over and over many times. While I could not say that I heard it, I could see that the words might be there from the motion of Heath's mouth.
--- End quote ---
Thank you, Milo!! I don't think the issue is decided just because the words are not audible on the soundtrack.
And nice to see you around these parts, by the way! :)
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