Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
BBM_victim:
--- Quote from: southendmd on June 15, 2017, 07:33:26 pm ---I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.
I hear a hint of breath. I suspect one can project onto this something more.
However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts. He knows Jack is gone. Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.
--- End quote ---
*sigh* southendmd, that's so sad.... maybe, maybe.... as i said, i chose to believe that it's not an "i love you", notwithstanding any possible reasons for why he would / could said it at that particular moment.
For me, the ultimate moment when Ennis openly admits - to himself and a third party - that he indeed loved Jack is when he asks Junior whether the Kurt fella loves her. "Openly" is, of course, totally in Ennis terms, a great exaggeration otherwise! When i watch this scene i see that Jr.'s news touch him at a certain place and stir up lots of raw emotions in him, but i strongly feel that he is not evading or hiding them (even from himself) anymore. The fact that he utters the word "love" implies so much about himself - actually much more than a simple concern about his daughter's well-being. And the way how Heath is pressing out this question out of Ennis shows me that he is aware of just how much he is revealing to Jr. in this moment. He is fully aware that by his question he is actually telling his daughter 'yes, i have loved. yes, i have lost it. yes, love IS something that must be cherished' - he is aware and he still asks it because he is not running or denying anything anymore.
At the same time it just feels to me that Ennis is also talking to himself at this point. He needs some way to express his feelings which he cannot let out otherwise. I just can't picture Ennis talking to himself when nobody is around. I think when he does, he would talk to someone - like that "Jack, i swear..." But even then he cannot properly finish the sentence - maybe for the simple fact that there is actually nobody there to hear it (surely, not the only reason). I think Ennis needs somebody to be around so that he can voice his feelings and this opportunity he has in Jr.'s visit.
So, Jr. tells him about going to be married and Ennis' mind is instantly miles away. What he can only think about are two people who are - should be! - in love. He thinks about Jack and himself, which translates into Jr. and Kurt. He asks "He loves you?" and gets the answer "Yes, daddy, he loves me". This translates back to Ennis and Jack into "Jack loves me?" "Yes, he loves me", and vice versa. It's a complex moment...
By the way, look at Jr.'s face when Ennis poses his question. She sees it all! She sees that her dad is revealing his heart including the heartbreak, that he is finally acknowledging his own love for someone, that he had come to terms with his own feelings and - she smiles. She is first surprised, then relieved and happy for him...
Sorry, this was now kind of OT, but let me say that this is why i think he is not saying "i love you" in the closet - simply because there is nobody there to hear it... ;(
That analysis by 2robots4u was extremely interesting, when i read it i was actually quite surprised that nobody commented properly on it back then. I need to remind myself quite a lot that it is a movie we are talking about. All people - actors. Fakes! But it just cannot be... Why is it all so damn perfect?? Why is there so much complexity in each scene?? So many undercurrents, layers, feelings?? This movie is crazy magical!
And i need to agree with serious crayons that sometimes not even the best police detectives can detect all of the things said / done in this movie. For example, they had not detected the two "c'mon"s Jack is saying before he says "i'm sorry" in SNIT, but they are definitely there - one a a slight lip movement and the other one exhaled into Ennis' mouth. If something is being breathed instead of said - would their instruments still detect it as those "voice prints"? That would also kind of apply to the "f* me"s of FNIT...
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: BBM_victim on June 18, 2017, 10:31:47 pm ---For me, the ultimate moment when Ennis openly admits - to himself and a third party - that he indeed loved Jack is when he asks Junior whether the Kurt fella loves her. "Openly" is, of course, totally in Ennis terms, a great exaggeration otherwise! When i watch this scene i see that Jr.'s news touch him at a certain place and stir up lots of raw emotions in him, but i strongly feel that he is not evading or hiding them (even from himself) anymore. The fact that he utters the word "love" implies so much about himself - actually much more than a simple concern about his daughter's well-being.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I bet the typical aging divorced Wyoming ranch hand wouldn't necessarily ask something so romantic and personal because it would be out of character whether they had a secret gay lover or not.
--- Quote ---And the way how Heath is pressing out this question out of Ennis shows me that he is aware of just how much he is revealing to Jr. in this moment. He is fully aware that by his question he is actually telling his daughter 'yes, i have loved. yes, i have lost it. yes, love IS something that must be cherished' - he is aware and he still asks it because he is not running or denying anything anymore.
--- End quote ---
I can see this, but I'm not sure I'd interpret it as that deliberate a reveal.
--- Quote ---At the same time it just feels to me that Ennis is also talking to himself at this point. He needs some way to express his feelings which he cannot let out otherwise. I just can't picture Ennis talking to himself when nobody is around. I think when he does, he would talk to someone - like that "Jack, i swear..." But even then he cannot properly finish the sentence - maybe for the simple fact that there is actually nobody there to hear it (surely, not the only reason). I think Ennis needs somebody to be around so that he can voice his feelings and this opportunity he has in Jr.'s visit.
--- End quote ---
That could be, but if so you could argue that element exists in the shirt scene. Jack himself is no more literally "there" than he is in the trailer. But in the closet I think Ennis strongly senses Jack's presence, not necessarily spectrally but sort of embodied in the shirts as the symbol of Jack and everything Ennis has lost. I know this all gets very vague and ambiguous, but you know how people say they absolutely feel the presence of people they are intensely grieving? That could be going on here.
And later Ennis has, at least subliminally, created Jack's presence with the objects in his trailer.
--- Quote ---This translates back to Ennis and Jack into "Jack loves me?" "Yes, he loves me", and vice versa. It's a complex moment...
--- End quote ---
Asll set up by the "You're 19, you can do what you want, hunh?" Ennis was 19 that summer but didn't feel he could do what he wanted. Now he connects that to what he's come to understand about the importance of love and realizes he could have done what he wanted and should have gone for it.
--- Quote ---By the way, look at Jr.'s face when Ennis poses his question. She sees it all! She sees that her dad is revealing his heart including the heartbreak, that he is finally acknowledging his own love for someone, that he had come to terms with his own feelings and - she smiles. She is first surprised, then relieved and happy for him...
--- End quote ---
Maybe! I can never tell if it's "Yep, Dad's for sure had someone of his own all these years, and it wasn't Mom or Cassie" ... or it's "that's so sweet that Dad would ask me that and care about making sure."
--- Quote ---Sorry, this was now kind of OT, but let me say that this is why i think he is not saying "i love you" in the closet - simply because there is nobody there to hear it... ;(
--- End quote ---
But I think in a way, embodied in the shirts which literally form a person-like silhouette that he can hug around the "shoulders" like a person, he does feel there's somebody there to hear it.
--- Quote ---That would also kind of apply to the "f* me"s of FNIT...
--- End quote ---
Wait -- I'm not sure I even know about the "F* me"s. Whole new thread! :laugh:
BBM_victim:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 19, 2017, 09:56:01 am ---That could be, but if so you could argue that element exists in the shirt scene. Jack himself is no more literally "there" than he is in the trailer. But in the closet I think Ennis strongly senses Jack's presence, not necessarily spectrally but sort of embodied in the shirts as the symbol of Jack and everything Ennis has lost. I know this all gets very vague and ambiguous, but you know how people say they absolutely feel the presence of people they are intensely grieving? That could be going on here.
And later Ennis has, at least subliminally, created Jack's presence with the objects in his trailer.
--- End quote ---
I will not dispute this because there is indeed a possibility.
I just thought yesterday that Ennis would need a presence of a real person to talk because he is not used to talking at all. He spends at least 2 weeks with - living!! - Jack before he can speak something like 10 sentences, so i imagined how it must be like for him if there is nobody around at all - would he be able to utter such important revelations as "i love you" under those circumstances?...
Additionally, his hushed "i love you" (if it is one) is sooo quick - why would he hurry up like this?...
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 19, 2017, 09:56:01 am ---Maybe! I can never tell if it's "Yep, Dad's for sure had someone of his own all these years, and it wasn't Mom or Cassie" ... or it's "that's so sweet that Dad would ask me that and care about making sure."
--- End quote ---
Oh, i am SO sure that Jr. knew! And she definitely knew for sure since the divorce meeting. Considering Alma as Ennis' lost love? - No. Considering Cassie as Ennis' lost love? - Again, no. Jr knew it was neither her mom nor Cassie when she said that her daddy is maybe not the marrying type. Consider this - from the SS:
"...Ennis’s fishing trips once or twice a year with Jack Twist and never a vacation with her and the girls, his disinclination to step out and have any fun, his yearning for low paid, long-houred ranch work, his propensity to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed,..."
This basically means that he worked till late, almost no holidays (so, 7 days a week), got home and went to bed right away, no going out, no beers with friends or colleagues, probably no friends at all, no holidays with the family. BUT - regular fishing trips with his *only* friend JT. Just observing this she should understand that this friend was a special one. Then, after the divorce Jr sees how this special friend drives up to daddys place, how glad Ennis is to see him, how they hug (i bet she had not seen him hugging anyone else beside this!!)... Well, i wont say that this is like the ultimate proof, but i am sure Jr had known... That's why she looked so sad when Ennis came to pick her up and there was some woman in his truck. Jr knew that Ennis is just pretending again, but not actually happy. She was sad for him that he was still running away. That he was in a way betraying his own heart.
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 19, 2017, 09:56:01 am ---Wait -- I'm not sure I even know about the "F* me"s. Whole new thread! :laugh:
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure this was part of those indiscernible moments of this thread ;).
CellarDweller:
this is one of those topics that will never be settled.
BBM_victim:
Yes, but i love love love this movie for giving us these hidden treasures to discuss for decades!
I'm just in constant state of awe....
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