Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: BBM_victim on June 19, 2017, 08:32:09 pm ---I just thought yesterday that Ennis would need a presence of a real person to talk because he is not used to talking at all. He spends at least 2 weeks with - living!! - Jack before he can speak something like 10 sentences, so i imagined how it must be like for him if there is nobody around at all - would he be able to utter such important revelations as "i love you" under those circumstances?...
Additionally, his hushed "i love you" (if it is one) is sooo quick - why would he hurry up like this?...
--- End quote ---
Well, the main reason that comes to mind is that if he said it loud and clear and in some passionate actory way, the scene would be ruined by sentimentality.
But also, just because he's not chatty with a guy he basically just met doesn't mean he never lets words go through his head, and sometimes in a really important moment -- like this one in the closet -- might even mouth them to himself.
--- Quote ---Oh, i am SO sure that Jr. knew! And she definitely knew for sure since the divorce meeting. Considering Alma as Ennis' lost love? - No. Considering Cassie as Ennis' lost love? - Again, no. Jr knew it was neither her mom nor Cassie when she said that her daddy is maybe not the marrying type. Consider this - from the SS:
"...Ennis’s fishing trips once or twice a year with Jack Twist and never a vacation with her and the girls, his disinclination to step out and have any fun, his yearning for low paid, long-houred ranch work, his propensity to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed,..."
This basically means that he worked till late, almost no holidays (so, 7 days a week), got home and went to bed right away, no going out, no beers with friends or colleagues, probably no friends at all, no holidays with the family. BUT - regular fishing trips with his *only* friend JT. Just observing this she should understand that this friend was a special one. Then, after the divorce Jr sees how this special friend drives up to daddys place, how glad Ennis is to see him, how they hug (i bet she had not seen him hugging anyone else beside this!!)... Well, i wont say that this is like the ultimate proof, but i am sure Jr had known... That's why she looked so sad when Ennis came to pick her up and there was some woman in his truck. Jr knew that Ennis is just pretending again, but not actually happy. She was sad for him that he was still running away. That he was in a way betraying his own heart.
--- End quote ---
I'm not saying there's no signs she could have noticed. And a 2017 teenager, even in rural Wyoming, would probably pick up on them. But a teenager from the 80s, in small-town WY (still a very homophobic place) no college or apparent experience living in other places, discerning signs and concluding that her dad is gay and not only having no problem with it, being so in favor of it that she's sad when he doesn't act on it? Uh ... maybe.
But consider this. My aunt lived with a woman all her life -- somewhere around 50 years. When the family gathered for Christmas or something, Doris always came with Sara, just like all the straight siblings brought their spouses, and everybody got along great and had a wonderful time. My dad's family grew up in Iowa, but they're fairly worldly; all of them went to college, most of them lived in a big city at some point, most of them are adamantly liberal.
When I was 18 or 19 -- about Jr.'s age! -- it dawned on me that Sara and Doris were most likely gay. So I asked my mom. My mom worked in a department store advertising department. Most of her male coworkers were gay, as were many of the women copywriters and artists. She was close friends at work with one or two lesbians. Everyone was completely out, my mom was absolutely fine with it. So she wasn't naive.
But when I asked her about Sara and Doris she paused and then said, completely sincerely (but again, nonjudgmentally), "You know, I never even thought about that."
Jr.'s behavior is ambiguous. For sure, she does seems to pick up on enough to know her dad is not typical in his romantic involvements and apparently decides to let be, let be.
BBM_victim:
Hey, serious crayons!
Thank you very much for your story - quite interesting :).
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 21, 2017, 11:15:33 am ---I'm not saying there's no signs she could have noticed. And a 2017 teenager, even in rural Wyoming, would probably pick up on them. But a teenager from the 80s, in small-town WY (still a very homophobic place) no college or apparent experience living in other places, discerning signs and concluding that her dad is gay and not only having no problem with it, being so in favor of it that she's sad when he doesn't act on it? Uh ... maybe.
--- End quote ---
Uhm... I agree you might have a point there... :D Maybe i'm thinking too much into it, but my version just makes me feel good, i guess. It warms my heart to know that there was indeed somebody around for Ennis who actually understood him and somehow guessed his "love issues" (for lack of a better word) and pain without Ennis ever needing to talk about it. I guess i really wish his solitude is not complete to that extent... It breaks my heart to know that he will never be able to talk about neither Jack as his love nor even Jack as his friend to anybody. How much more pain had Ennis deserved and for what in the first place?? Poor baby, he had been tortured by life his whole existence... :'( :'( :'(
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: BBM_victim on June 21, 2017, 08:16:27 pm ---Uhm... I agree you might have a point there... :D Maybe i'm thinking too much into it, but my version just makes me feel good, i guess.
--- End quote ---
I totally get that, the wish to see at least a glimmer of happiness in it. In my early days of watching the movie, I used to start out thinking, "Maybe it will come out differently this time."
I think my years of debating every moment and line, from an emotional, dramatic and metaphorical and subtextual perspective, probably turned me more practical, more conscious of the dramatic choices as opposed to what I'd wish for in "real life." That, I guess, is how I became resigned to their fate.
--- Quote ---It warms my heart to know that there was indeed somebody around for Ennis who actually understood him and somehow guessed his "love issues" (for lack of a better word) and pain without Ennis ever needing to talk about it.
--- End quote ---
Well, I definitely think she'll always be a loving supporting daughter, whether she literally thinks "My dad is gay, but that's cool" or just knows she loves her dad and he's a little mysterious but his choices -- aside from whether to attend her wedding -- are his own business.
FWIW, because I don't really see Ennis ever going back for cherry cake, I think both Mr. and Mrs. Twist "got" Ennis -- even more accurately than Jr., probably. They both totally understand the nature of Ennis and Jack's relationship. Mr. Twist might not be the most open-minded modern guy on the planet, but he definitely was less concerned about the nature of Jack and his friend's relationship than he was about getting help at the ranch. (The problem wasn't that Jack was bringing a man, it was that like most of his plans it never come to pass.) Having (relatively) open-minded parents might at least partly explain why Jack is more carefree about pursuing the sweet life as opposed to Ennis, whose dad lynches gay people, tortures them to death in fact, and then takes his young son to see it.
One of the most fascinating aspects of this movie, I think, is that it requires the audience to bring in its own cultural knowledge. Ennis' dad is literally the only person who unequivocally expresses vicious homophobia (assuming Jack's killers are in Ennis' imagination). Yet because we all basically know the situation-- 1960s-'80s Wyoming, small towns -- we can assume that everything and everybody is at least tinged with it. So there are all these ambiguous situations you could read either way.
BBM_victim:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 21, 2017, 08:51:51 pm ---the wish to see at least a glimmer of happiness in it.
--- End quote ---
I've been thinking... what is actually Ennis' and Jack's most happy moment together? No, wrong... What's actually their best shot at pure happiness, not "marred" (to borrow AP's word) by any of the following:
- shame
- guilt
- self-loathing
- uncertainty / doubt
- fear
- time flying
- suppressed feelings
- apparent lies
- violence / anger
(..?)
Did they every had such a moment? I think best shots were the dozy embrace and "prayer and thanks" up to the harmonica joke, but both were still not perfect. Probably for Jack the DE was the perfect pure happiness moment, but we don't know about Ennis. SNIT? If we go by the short story, there was no SNIT, and even no kissing on the mountain (how horrible is that??). So, by my terms their time on the mountain was far from happy either... Unfulfilled! - is the word for this whole story! We can say they had the greatest love on earth, they were soul mates and two parts of one whole as much as we want, but in reality we have to people who are not even able to talk from their hearts to each other because of their issues. In a way they are still alone even if they are together. You know what? Fuck that! What kind of story is that?!?!... *walksinangrycircles*
.....
I'm sorry i had to swear. I had one of those moments :P Sometimes i get so angry at both of them..... Yeah, then i remember how true this story actually is and how hard it is to fight one's own demons, to break out of own patterns...
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 21, 2017, 08:51:51 pm ---because I don't really see Ennis ever going back for cherry cake
--- End quote ---
Oh, you don't? I think i need another moment... to remind myself how realistic the story is....
BBM_victim:
I'm sorry, the other post was kind of OT, but i leave it as it is - i had to let it out!
--- Quote from: serious crayons on June 21, 2017, 11:15:33 am ---Well, the main reason that comes to mind is that if he said it loud and clear and in some passionate actory way, the scene would be ruined by sentimentality.
--- End quote ---
Right, so you agree that a proper "i love you" would ruin the scene. I think so, too. It's better without it. He doesn't need to say it, Jack knew it anyway. Then if he is really saying it in such a rush that it seems almost comically, i think it's not making the scene better either, maybe even worse. Therefore, i choose to think he is just sobbing instead. ;)
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