Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on June 26, 2006, 10:23:27 pm --- And, this long enigmatic opening meeting just must be significant. Lee dwells on this interaction for so long... you know every nuance must be important.
--- End quote ---
Good point. If only because this scene is about five times as long as scenes you'd think would be far more significant, there must be more going on here than two guys waiting to get hired for a job.
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 24, 2006, 04:24:18 pm ---We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.
But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?
Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?
As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?
When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?
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This, my friend, is a good thread (figures I would find you behind this, latjoreme ;))
The whole, "You may be a sinner ...." speech has about a million different interpretations. This is how I see it (okay, guys! Whip me upside of the head if you think I am too far off base) ... I think Ennis is a virgin at that point. Could be wrong, that is just my gut feeling. What I do believe is that neither one of them had sex with another man before that night. (another point of discentiion between Brokies).
I think there was a lot of subtle flirting before that night. IMO, however, neither of them would have acted on it had they not been drinking ... which, of course, lowered their inhabitions.
Now, don't get me started on the whole Randall thing .... I'll save that for a later conversation. :)
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: dly64 on June 27, 2006, 11:15:12 am ---The whole, "You may be a sinner ...." speech has about a million different interpretations. This is how I see it (okay, guys! Whip me upside of the head if you think I am too far off base) ... I think Ennis is a virgin at that point. Could be wrong, that is just my gut feeling. What I do believe is that neither one of them had sex with another man before that night. (another point of discentiion between Brokies).
--- End quote ---
I agree with you that Ennis is a virgin at that point. And I think we are to understand that he's a virgin. I think that's why a change was made from the 2004 screenplay. In "2004," Ennis says that Alma hasn't yet given him the opportunity. That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.
I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer. ...
dly64:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on June 27, 2006, 01:11:34 pm ---I agree with you that Ennis is a virgin at that point. And I think we are to understand that he's a virgin. I think that's why a change was made from the 2004 screenplay. In "2004," Ennis says that Alma hasn't yet given him the opportunity. That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.
I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer....
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That's true, and I've thought about that. However, I think he was just as shocked about it as Ennis (IMO). However, by the end of his life, he obviously accepted that he was gay. Ennis never did.
Ellemeno:
I feel confused by the thoughts in my head.
Jack was not direct - he reached around behind himself to a drunk, sleeping Ennis to pull Ennis's hand to his own penis. That doesn't show as much confidence as if he had, say, arrived into camp one morning and walked up to Ennis and kissed him on the lips in sober daylight.
But then, when Ennis feels his hand on Jack's penis, even though he first jumps back within a few moments, he (Ennis) takes it much further. I think most of us would agree that on the spectrum of sexual activity, a penis in an @$$hole trumps a hand on a penis.
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