Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 04, 2006, 04:58:44 am --- But the film so far surpasses the very thin story and gives such an enormous amount of weight to it, that while I can read the short story and put the film into it, I cannot watch the film and put the short story into the film. There are a few instances where something in the short story has made me look at motivations in the film a little differently, but there are so many times that the film gives a completely different spin that I think it's just best to put the book aside and go with what Lee gave us.
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I agree with this completely. The film takes the skeleton of the story and adds flesh and dimension and meaning and detail. As Annie Proulx herself has said, it delves deeper into characters -- we've seen that Jack, to some extent, and Ennis, to a huge extent, are like two different people in the story and film. Most importantly, the transition from story to film turns BBM from a tale about how society's prejudices can warp people's lives (by making Ennis afraid to live with Jack) to one about how society's prejudices can warp people's souls (by making Ennis afraid to love Jack, and himself).
That's why, like you, I normally don't like using the story as a text for deciphering the film. (Though sometimes, if there's something I like better in the story, I pretend it exists in the film. For example, I prefer to think that "one thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings," to the subdued tone of that final tent scene.
--- Quote --- But, it is precisely because Jack loved Ennis so much that Jack had to let Ennis go. ... Jack said he wished he knew how to quit Ennis. In the most poignant irony of the entire film, Ennis showed him how.
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Now, this makes sense, and I can't necessarily argue against it, but I find it ... well, sort of ruthlessly unsentimental. Or at least ruthlessly poignant. Anyway, for me, that possibility is hard to face.
BUT this ...
--- Quote ---Because Ennis sent the final postcard, I believe that Jack had not yet gotten around to closing things up with Ennis, and I’m not sure how he would have done it. ... Jack would have had to have gotten a final, definite answer from Ennis one way or the other. And if Ennis' answer was the same as always
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... softens the harshness. Because I think that, in view of Ennis' breaking up with Cassie and his epiphany in the pie scene, Ennis' answer might NOT have been the same as always.
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--- Quote ---If it's the latter, then she's a pretty good comparison to Ennis ... neither might use the label they despise to describe their own behavior, yet at some level they realize their behavior is not "normal."
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I think this is the entire key point. Very well stated (summed up).
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Well, if you agree on that, maybe we're not so diametrically opposed on the issue of Ennis' acknowledgment. Maybe it's not so much a black-or-white matter of, he fully acknowledges vs. he doesn't acknowledge. Maybe it's more a matter of degree.
I'm willing to believe that Ennis doesn't use the dreaded Q-word to describe himself, just as he doesn't use the L-word to describe his relationship with Jack. But I do think he notices that his own inclinations and behavior are the kind of thing his father taught him was a no-no, just as I think he notices that he has all the intense feelings toward Jack that most of us would describe with the word "love."
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 04, 2006, 11:01:26 am ---Most importantly, the transition from story to film turns BBM from a tale about how society's prejudices can warp people's lives (by making Ennis afraid to live with Jack) to one about how society's prejudices can warp people's souls (by making Ennis afraid to love Jack, and himself).
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I like this! Well, no, I don't like this... it's sad and heartbreaking... but I like how you stated it.
--- Quote ---Now, this makes sense, and I can't necessarily argue against it, but I find it ... well, sort of ruthlessly unsentimental. Or at least ruthlessly poignant. Anyway, for me, that possibility is hard to face.
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To me, it's all about what is love? Which is love -- tending to the pain in your loved one, or ignoring it and continuing as if it's not there? Jack had to tend to it. Just what the result of that would be would be Ennis' decision. If he would choose to live with Jack (slight chance), OK; but, if not (bigger probability), then Jack would have to let Ennis go. Anything else would be unforgivable.
--- Quote ---in view of Ennis' breaking up with Cassie and his epiphany in the pie scene, Ennis' answer might NOT have been the same as always.
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I can go with this. But, his epiphany, if ever complete, was not completed until at least the "love" conversation with Jr. -- too late.
--- Quote ---Well, if you agree on that, maybe we're not so diametrically opposed on the issue of Ennis' acknowledgment. Maybe it's not so much a black-or-white matter of, he fully acknowledges vs. he doesn't acknowledge. Maybe it's more a matter of degree.
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It's all in how one cooks one's beans.
--- Quote ---I'm willing to believe that Ennis doesn't use the dreaded Q-word to describe himself, just as he doesn't use the L-word to describe his relationship with Jack. But I do think he notices that his own inclinations and behavior are the kind of thing his father taught him was a no-no, just as I think he notices that he has all the intense feelings toward Jack that most of us would describe with the word "love."
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Absolutely. This is exactly how I see it.
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 04, 2006, 11:01:26 am ---I agree with this completely. The film takes the skeleton of the story and adds flesh and dimension and meaning and detail. As Annie Proulx herself has said, it delves deeper into characters -- we've seen that Jack, to some extent, and Ennis, to a huge extent, are like two different people in the story and film. Most importantly, the transition from story to film turns BBM from a tale about how society's prejudices can warp people's lives (by making Ennis afraid to live with Jack) to one about how society's prejudices can warp people's souls (by making Ennis afraid to love Jack, and himself).
That's why, like you, I normally don't like using the story as a text for deciphering the film. (Though sometimes, if there's something I like better in the story, I pretend it exists in the film. For example, I prefer to think that "one thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings," to the subdued tone of that final tent scene.
Well, if you agree on that, maybe we're not so diametrically opposed on the issue of Ennis' acknowledgment. Maybe it's not so much a black-or-white matter of, he fully acknowledges vs. he doesn't acknowledge. Maybe it's more a matter of degree.
I'm willing to believe that Ennis doesn't use the dreaded Q-word to describe himself, just as he doesn't use the L-word to describe his relationship with Jack. But I do think he notices that his own inclinations and behavior are the kind of thing his father taught him was a no-no, just as I think he notices that he has all the intense feelings toward Jack that most of us would describe with the word "love."
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OMG! We can’t all be agreeing, can we? That is how I see the situation with Ennis … it doesn’t mean he isn’t gay. It doesn’t mean he isn’t attracted to men. What it does mean is that Ennis did not see himself as a homosexual. He also would not be able to acknowledge the fact that he was attracted to men. IMO, he was able to give himself to Jack because of the place …. BBM …. where they had the freedom to be themselves without societal pressures and expectations. I think Ennis did become aware that he loved Jack at the lake scene. Prior to that, Ennis knew he had deep feelings for Jack, but was unable to completely accept or acknowledge that those feelings were, indeed, love.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 04, 2006, 03:45:03 pm ---I can go with this. But, his epiphany, if ever complete, was not completed until at least the "love" conversation with Jr. -- too late.
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Oh, well I see his epiphany as being complete before that. That conversation is a reflection of his epiphany, in my view.
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 04, 2006, 09:33:32 pm ---OMG! We can’t all be agreeing, can we? ... What it does mean is that Ennis did not see himself as a homosexual. He also would not be able to acknowledge the fact that he was attracted to men. IMO, he was able to give himself to Jack because of the place …. BBM …. where they had the freedom to be themselves without societal pressures and expectations. I think Ennis did become aware that he loved Jack at the lake scene. Prior to that, Ennis knew he had deep feelings for Jack, but was unable to completely accept or acknowledge that those feelings were, indeed, love.
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Don't worry, Diane, we still don't agree! :) I DO think he acknowledges that he's attracted to men. To go back to the earlier example, the Xanax addict may not label herself a quote-unquote drug addict, but she certainly acknowledges that she takes Xanax, even if she wishes she didn't!
As for Ennis' realization that he loves Jack, I think that occurs back on Brokeback. Again, he may not use that label. Maybe the Xanax addict has some other name for it than, "I am addicted to Xanax." But she knows how much she wants it. (Not to imply that either attraction to men or love are bad habits!)
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 04, 2006, 09:33:32 pm ---OMG! We can’t all be agreeing, can we? That is how I see the situation with Ennis … it doesn’t mean he isn’t gay. It doesn’t mean he isn’t attracted to men. What it does mean is that Ennis did not see himself as a homosexual. He also would not be able to acknowledge the fact that he was attracted to men. IMO, he was able to give himself to Jack because of the place …. BBM …. where they had the freedom to be themselves without societal pressures and expectations. I think Ennis did become aware that he loved Jack at the lake scene. Prior to that, Ennis knew he had deep feelings for Jack, but was unable to completely accept or acknowledge that those feelings were, indeed, love.
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I like everything you wrote. It all makes sense to me. Except, of course, for the "become aware that he loved Jack" part. I still think he just began the learning curve here. He admits that he's the way he is because of Jack. I think we all know that it's because of his love for Jack, and I think Jack would have even figured it that way. But I still think Ennis has not quite made the connection. I think he's saying it to Jack as an accusation, because of his fears. I believe that's the reason for the breakdown. If he did make that connection at that time, then he'd have sorted out the entire mess that was himself. It's his inability to make that connection that constitutes his messed-up self. And he can’t make that connection because of his fears.
That's why it took Cassie to give him his first insight that it was love. Lureen dittoed this. Mr. Twist dittoed this. And, his conversations with Lureen and the Twists gave him clues that he could step past his fear. So, finally, in the shirt scene, he has just stepped past his fears a bit AND he's armed with the clues from others that it really was love, and so, in Jack's closet he makes the final connection.
However, this is just my take and I’m willing to listen. I think that if Ennis had made the connection at the final lake scene, he would have had to have had some clues beyond just what he'd been going through before the final lake scene. Do you find any clues that would have helped him make the connection at the final lake scene? I may be missing the forest for the trees.
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