Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault

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dly64:
I am glad for your thoughtful response. It is nice to discuss this great film with someone who is as passionate about it as I am!

BTW ... I had spent over an hour responding to this note and my computer shut down on me!  So I lost everything I had written. :'( I am going to start over again, but I am not sure I will be as detailed as I was previously. C'est la vie! Stuff happens!


--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 28, 2006, 05:35:11 pm ---... So today I'd have to say I'm not an Ennis or a Jack, I'm both.
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I agree ...  I do the same thing. I mostly understand Jack's point of reference, however. Each person's life experiences influence how s/he interprets this beautiful film.



--- Quote ---I can see vulnerability here.  But taking a guy's hand and putting it "you know where"      ;)     is overt.
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Okay, okay .... I can give that to you. Even when I was writing it I was trying to be delicate in the description. I guess there is no way to make the word "cock" delicate. (I just thought it sounded better than penis).  ::)



--- Quote ---I think we see something similar here... but here, really well-defined terminology is important.   I can go with "they each fell in love" here.  But that's different from "they each knew they had fallen in love" and it's different from "each boy knew that the other guy loved him."

You've given (in a couple of places in your post) some examples of loving behaviors between them (as I have done in my post(s)).  Each of them displaying loving behaviors is consistent with "they each fell in love" but it is not necessarily consistent with "they each knew they had fallen in love" or with "each boy knew that the other guy loved him."  I don’t believe it’s correct to say that Ennis knew he loved Jack and then also to say that Ennis could not admit it.  It seems more consistent with the character developed in the film that Ennis did not understand what it was that was between the two of them.  To Ennis, love was a man and a woman getting married.  He didn’t understand that's it's not what one does on the surface, it's what one feels under the surface (example – the three options he gave to Jack at the final lake scene, contrasted with Cassie picking up on that and explaining it to him in the bus depot).  This was his big internal conflict -- always wanting to see Jack and do for Jack, but being unable to understand why.
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I think I expressed what I was trying to say poorly. Both Ennis and Jack loved each other. Ennis did not know  he loved Jack. Jack did not know he loved Ennis. Certainly, Jack came to this realization way before Ennis.  It was the lake scene when Ennis understood the depth of his feelings for Jack. Ultimately, it was too late.



--- Quote ---Ummmmm... yes, they have the freedom to do this, and they do explore and develop their relationship (which is friendship and sexual)... but I can't tack on "their love for each other" because they don't understand their relationship this way.  WE, the viewers, understand it this way.  But the film does not portray them as understanding it this way.  That's one of the key plots of the film -- Ennis' inability to understand and process his feelings for Jack, his inability to correctly name those feelings.
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I agree with you completely on this point.



--- Quote ---Yes and no.  The reason they parted as they did is because of a failure to communicate, a failure to seek closure.  Had they done that, things could have been different.  As I said before, it's not that Ennis would have agreed to live together, but he was at his most vulnerable and he was at his most needy at that time.  In his position, at that time, he could have made a different choice and that different choice is not limited to only one option, them living together, it could be as simple as deciding not to marry Alma.
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We are both in agreement that Ennis would not have lived with Jack. Despite the communication (or lack thereof), IMO, Ennis would have still married Alma. Societal constraints and expectations dictated what Ennis would/ would not do. He was already engaged to Alma. He would have been unable to break it off with her to spend time or to be around Jack.  He was so worried about what others perceived that he tried everything in his power to make himself invisible. So, although Ennis was "available" at that time, nothing would have changed.



--- Quote ---But these are two different scenes.  In the first, Ennis is at his most vulnerable and without the excuses of marriage, children and job.  In the second, Ennis is not at his most vulnerable because he has the excuses of his children and his job (and just before this, he had the excuse of his marriage).


And yet they did have a kind of life together outside of the realms of the mountain.  They saw each other 2-3 times a year for many years.  That is one kind of life (a pretty sucky one, but Ennis sure seemed comfortable with it for quite a while – in fact, so did Jack until the post-divorce truck scene).  Also, note that I did not say that Ennis' fears would have been dealt with on that one day at the truck, in fact, I said the opposite.  I said that had Jack taken the lead to help Ennis to not make the choice to marry Alma, the kind of life that they had post-mountain (and they did have a kind of life post-mountain) could have been different and they could have dealt with Ennis' fear... day after day... year after year...  I think we do agree that Ennis came to some kind of escape from his fear by the very end trailer scene... he certainly was able to deal with OMT... and so he could have come to that same point, but without the whole Alma, marriage, kids life that he chose to live because he was confused about what Jack felt for him, and he was confused because Jack failed to take the lead.
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Note that even though they get together 2 - 3 times per year, it is still in the mountains where they are isolated and away from societal morality and constraints. They have the freedom to be themselves. Off of the mountain, however, Ennis is fearful and paranoid. Even if Jack and Ennis would have had openly discussed their relationship expectations post mountain, I still think Ennis would have married Alma. He was trying hard to convince himself and society that he was "normal" That means marriage. That means kids.



--- Quote ---I may have worded this part poorly.  I don’t believe that either of them was IN it FOR fun and sex.  I believe that that's how Ennis compartmentalized his relationship with Jack.  He didn’t file it under “love.”  He filed it under “fun” and “sex.”  But WE know that he misfiled it because WE know that what they had between the two of them was love.  But had Ennis known that, he wouldn’t have misfiled it.  He was a stickler for detail.  He just wasn’t at a point in his emotional development to understand the details he was a part of.


First part, yes.  Second part, no.  I agree that on a spiritual level, each was the completion for the other; but, in their actual interactions with each other, neither completed the other at all.  In fact, because of their failures to communicate properly all along, they disassociated each other.  Remember them eating the elk?  The elk is a symbol of their relationship, a poor substitute for what Jack really wanted -- soup, that is, a life together.  And what did they do with the elk?  They ate it up, bit by bit until it was all gone.  The scene of them shooting the elk was significant for us to see Ennis providing for Jack (the text) and for us to see the poor substitute it was for Jack (the metaphor).  Now that we know that they shot the elk, we have no need to see them eat it.  But we do.  Why?  Because they're hungry (the text) and because they're eating away at their relationship (the metaphor).

(It's also interesting to note exactly where in the film we see evidence of the elk meat.  In the eating scene we see elk meat hanging on a rack they built for it.  And we see this same rack later on.  But when has all the elk meat disappeared?  And what happens right after that?)
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I think we have divergent ideas here. Both Jack and Ennis had opposite personality traits. Yet, they understood each other in a way no one else could or ever would. They did not pull each other apart until they left BBM ... when the world around them dictated what they "should" or "should not" do. Ennis' inability to give himself freely to Jack and Jack's frustration and need tore them apart. However, they could not break from each other. They were in each other's blood (so to speak). Their need for each other could not be shaken no matter what happened.



--- Quote ---Yep, yep and yep.  But we have to ask why Ennis always said "no."  The text is because of his marriage, his daughters and his job (and they are valid reasons), but the subtext is his fear of his homosexuality and its consequences.  Similarly, we have to ask why it's OK to have sex with women, but not with men.  And again, the subtext is his fear of his homosexuality and it consequences.  If Jack is queer, that makes Ennis queer, and that's his fear.  Fear is what controls Ennis.  His sexual needs and desires are not his controlling factors.  For Jack, they are big factors in what drives Jack.  Jack said they're different.  Ennis could make it, but Jack could not, on a couple of high altitude fs every year.
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I agree with you on this point. But I also think that Jack could separate sex from love. He did have needs that were not being met by Ennis. Ennis gave his body and soul to Jack (again, not knowing that it was love) and felt completely betrayed when he found out Jack had sex with another man. Yet it was Jack who kept working on the relationship. He was the one who kept it going. He could not "quit" Ennis.



--- Quote ---Exactly!  And I'm not sure if by "fault" you’re referring to my comment about Jack failing Ennis at the truck, but if you are, I'm not saying that Jack's failure at that moment was the whole fault behind all of their problems over the years.  I'm saying that Ennis' fears are behind their problems, as the most significant factor, and that Jack had the opportunity to catch Ennis at his most vulnerable and to ameliorate those fears... or at least to begin the process... but he failed to recognize the opportunity.

When Ennis said that he hadn't yet had the opportunity, the text is that he hadn't yet had the opportunity to be a sinner, the subtext is that he was a virgin, and the symbolism is that of the (missed) opportunity that lay ahead for them, for their future.
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I still believe that nothing would have changed. The romantic in me hopes that things would have been different. I just think that Ennis wasn't even close to the point where he would have considered breaking off his engagement to Alma.



--- Quote ---I don’t want to quibble over this interpretation because I think it's valid.  I do take it a little differently, though.  If we're going to pick out "vows" I’d have to go with the "We ain't queer" scene.  Here they set up the parameters for their relationship and define themselves (albeit incorrectly, as Jack later determines at the post-divorce truck scene).  I think that the "I swear" scene (after Junior leaves) is more of an indication to us that Ennis has now, after twenty years, come to the same realization about their vows that Jack did, that they were based on a lie.  And so, "I swear" certainly could be a new and more honest affirmation of their vows from Ennis.


No one will ever accuse me of being short-winded.  Personally, I'd rather have one long, detailed, well-articulated response than 100 short one-liners (such as "I disagree," or "In your opinion," or "Whatever!")  Thanks and cheers to you my BBB!      :)
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You are right ... the "Jack, I swear .... "  has about a million different interpretations and I doubt that any one person could have the same conclusion. Maybe that's a good thing.

Well, I hope this wasn't too spare. I had originally more thought provoking answers. But since everything go erased and I started getting a bit sleepy .... oh well!!

Let's keep up the conversation. I love it! (It may be that I forget what I wrote tonight and have a different perception altogether tomorrow.  ::))

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: dly64 on June 28, 2006, 09:54:25 pm ---I am glad for your thoughtful response. It is nice to discuss this great film with someone who is as passionate about it as I am!
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Amen!



--- Quote ---I had spent over an hour responding to this note and my computer shut down on me!  … I am going to start over again, …
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This is what makes you a true BBB!



--- Quote --- … I was trying to be delicate in the description. I guess there is no way to make the word "cock" delicate. (I just thought it sounded better than penis).
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Jack took Ennis’ hand and put it on his…

… manhood … little Jack … 21st digit … bean stalk  (get it?  Jack’s bean stalk…) … Jack in the box … pride and joy … should I start a new thread?



--- Quote ---We are both in agreement that Ennis would not have lived with Jack. Despite the communication (or lack thereof), IMO, Ennis would have still married Alma. Societal constraints and expectations dictated what Ennis would/ would not do. He was already engaged to Alma. He would have been unable to break it off with her to spend time or to be around Jack.  He was so worried about what others perceived that he tried everything in his power to make himself invisible. So, although Ennis was "available" at that time, nothing would have changed.
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Yes, I agree.  But, he was at his most vulnerable.  I still think Jack could have tried something with him.  These guys were not great communicators and they were both confused at the truck.  I think a majority of people look at the screen here and yell “Say something!” to both of them (people seem to do this too when Jack later says “Sometimes I miss you so much…”).  Jack was supposed to be good with a can opener, but he didn’t use it here.  I still think they could have come to some better ending/beginning for themselves at this point and that it had to start with Jack.



--- Quote ---I think we have divergent ideas here. Both Jack and Ennis had opposite personality traits. Yet, they understood each other in a way no one else could or ever would. They did not pull each other apart until they left BBM ... when the world around them dictated what they "should" or "should not" do. Ennis' inability to give himself freely to Jack and Jack's frustration and need tore them apart. However, they could not break from each other. They were in each other's blood (so to speak). Their need for each other could not be shaken no matter what happened.
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Agreed.



--- Quote ---I agree with you on this point. But I also think that Jack could separate sex from love. He did have needs that were not being met by Ennis. Ennis gave his body and soul to Jack (again, not knowing that it was love) and felt completely betrayed when he found out Jack had sex with another man. Yet it was Jack who kept working on the relationship. He was the one who kept it going. He could not "quit" Ennis.
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I agree with everything except the last sentence.  But before I get into that, I need to hear how you define “quit.”



--- Quote ---I still believe that nothing would have changed. The romantic in me hopes that things would have been different. I just think that Ennis wasn't even close to the point where he would have considered breaking off his engagement to Alma.
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This is where I’ve earned my user name.  I look at it very analytically and I think, again, that Ennis was at his most vulnerable, and I still think something could have changed.  For example, when Ennis said that that was the most he had spoken in a year, remember, the previous year for him was, presumably, with Alma in the picture.  His relationship with her could not have been that strong.  The way he strings his sentences together in the ‘yee-haw’ scene, I get the sense that it was very recently that his brother got married and probably told Ennis to go out into the world and find his way.  He concludes by saying “that’s why me end up here.”  I think his engagement to Alma was probably his brother’s or sister’s idea rather than his own – it’s just the sense I get.  He was a follower and his brother and sister were his leaders before Brokeback.  I really think that at the truck Ennis was begging (inside) for Jack to take the lead and say the right thing that would somehow make it all all right for Ennis.



--- Quote ---Let's keep up the conversation. I love it! (It may be that I forget what I wrote tonight and have a different perception altogether tomorrow.
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Absolutely!  Now don’t let me catch you sleepin’ on your feet like a horse!  Nighty-night.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 28, 2006, 04:20:10 am ---(Have I earned my user name yet?)      ;)
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Gettin close!  ;)


--- Quote ---
--- Quote --- he can finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances anyway, face the prospect that people "know."
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I agree.  But you'd better watch out there.  With all of those qualifications (finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances) you're sounding like me.      ;D

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 :laugh: ... Not exactly, though. I see Ennis as struggling with what other people know; you (as I understand it) see Ennis as struggling with what he himself knows.

I think we're confronting what may be the biggest and maybe most immutable divide among Brokies -- more so than whether we empathize with Jack or Ennis (though there's probably some overlap). It's about when we think is the point in the movie -- early on or at the end? -- Ennis knows he loves Jack and and/or knows he is gay. Whether he believes the "I'm not queer" or is just posing. Whether the Mexico threat is about homophobia or jealousy and whether his lakeside collapse is about facing his sexuality or the fear he's losing Jack. I'm in the early/posing/jealousy/fear of losing school.

I believe Ennis knew he was gay long before he met Jack. He'd felt attracted to men for years, maybe since around the Earl time -- which is why the nightmare of growing up with a father who hates homosexuality enough to torture somebody to death for it made Ennis so pathologically shy and socially awkward. He's had to constantly hide a part of himself, to repress his thoughts whenever they come up, literally out of fear for his life. And he has become very practiced at it, as the crow-hopping scene illustrates. But hiding it isn't just a practical safety precaution; that horrific upbringing also colored Ennis' attitude. He hates his sexuality, he thinks his dad was right. So he doesn't like to admit it to himself (unlike Jack, shows little inner conflict about it). But at some level, Ennis knows how he feels about men. Just as later, he knows how he feels about Jack.


--- Quote ---All of this goes back to the pact they made on the mountain.  "I'm not queer."  "Me neither."  This is a pact between them that these behaviors of theirs can continue, but it can't be called "queer."  Ennis' greatest fear is being queer ... being found out to be queer ... and all that that would mean (for example, deserving of death in some people's minds, including his father's – and he once said he thought his father was right.  This was not a throw-away line.  Nor was it relegated to its simple text.  It had a subtext that would carry through to the Earl/Rich story.  His father’s hatred was taught to Ennis, Ennis learned it, and he thought it was right, his father was right).
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I agree with most of what you say here -- he is terrified of being queer, and of being found out -- but not with your contention that he's so terrified he won't admit it to himself. Ennis may have attached all kinds of negative attributes to "queerness." But he also knows what it basically means -- a man who has sex with men. And he knows what he and Jack did last night, and that he wanted to do it then and to continue doing it. He realizes what that means. He doesn't want to slap the "queer" label on it, so he tries for a while to put those two ideas in separate compartments -- queerness is bad, being with Jack is good -- and manages to keep them tenuously separate (though not completely, hence his reluctance to party with the fire-and-brimstone crowd). But the dividers between these ideas gradually break down, increasing his fear that people -- on the pavement, in the white pickup -- "know."


--- Quote ---But when we get to "whatever name they choose to give it," that's where we need to look at the name Ennis chose to give it.  He called it a "thing."  He didn't say "love."  I believe that this is because Ennis just is not capable of understanding just what it is ... or better put, that he is just not in a place in his life, in his development, to understand just what it is.
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It's almost impossible to imagine Ennis under any circumstances saying, "If this deep love I have for you, Jack, grabs hold of me at the wrong place, wrong time ..." That's just not in his character, as evidenced by all the other scenes where Jack says some nice endearment and Ennis clams up. He can express love physically, but rarely verbally -- the closest he comes is the "sending up a prayer of thanks" scene. (Which does come awfully close; he tells Jack he is so happy to be with him again that he is thanking God for it -- yes, he follows with a harmonica joke ((because, again, he's not a verbally affectionate guy)), but the slight pause Ennis gives after Jack says "For what?" is like Ennis saying, "Well, duh!") Anyway, there are plenty of stoic taciturn men who, though not conflicted about their sexuality, never use the word "love" to their partners -- yet nevertheless know they feel it. IMO, Ennis is one of those guys.


--- Quote --- When he speaks of people "knowing," I believe, that to Ennis it means people "knowing that WE do this stuff that we're not supposed to be doing."
 I really think that Ennis believes with all his might that his "thing" with Jack is a "thing" JUST with Jack.
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I believe he doesn't separate the two that distinctly. Yes, "knows" means knowing what the two of them do, but he realizes that has implications about both their sexuality. When he asks if everything is "normal" between Jack and Lureen, it's because he knows it sure as hell wasn't normal with Alma. (And Jack lets him down here, too, IMO, by not admitting that his relationship with Lureen actually isn't ideal. Though Jack may just be trying to stay clear of Ennis' startle point.)

So he knows all these things as he goes along. After Jack's death, he realizes that hiding them was not worth losing the love of his life. Visiting the Twists, as I suggested earlier, means coming out to them. He's willing to face the Twists "knowing" -- in the kitchen, he realizes they both know, yet stays calm about it, doesn't run out and get himself beat up --  in order to do right by Jack.


--- Quote ---yet he still acted with his standard knee-jerk reaction to Alma's desire to have him at her wedding.  He's learning, no doubt, but he's still Ennis Del Mar.
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Yeah, he reverts to his old ways, for about half a minute. His reflex is to tell her he's supposed to work -- because, in fact, he is. But since Jack's death he has been going over his mistakes, and realizing that his big one was putting other considerations ahead of love. He remembers this when he sees her disappointed look, and immediately changes his mind.

Whew! I'm sleeping in front of my computer like a horse, and I haven't even commented on the Timmy scene you referred to earlier, let alone all the them things I know (well, all them things I believe) about the lakeside argument ... but I guess there's always enough time for that, always enough.

 :)

* EDITED for lucidity the next morning (though, having stayed up so late, I'm not all that lucid now either).

Mikaela:
Apologies for spelling errors, inconsistencies and general lack of lucidity in the following. This got way too long and too convoluted, and I have to post now or forever let it be - I'll be off the net for some days and am in a big hurry (it's as if my boss just called to tell me all the heifers are calving at the same time!  ;D  ) So if you  feel like just skipping this - please do! I figured at least it shows yet another person has been reading the thread. Knowing there are readers out there is always a good thing, IMO.

~~~~

With that, Hi ruthlesslyunsentimental - good to make your acquaintance! What a lot of interesting and insightful posts you've provided, garnering responses equally thought-provoking - and I only became aware of this late yesterday,  :o  and then only  thanks to Katherine!  :)

I guess there's a lot I'd like to comment on, but there is the old, cold issue of time…….never enough.  :(  Katherine’s latest post says much that I intended to say – very well put!  (I apologise that some of my post may seem to be repeating Katerine’s points – I wrote part of my response late last night but then didn’t have time to finish it till now. And of course………interesting things have happened here in the meantime!)



--- Quote ---I think we're confronting what may be the biggest and maybe most immutable divide among Brokies  [Snip]  It's about when we think is the point in the movie -- early on or at the end? -- Ennis knows he loves Jack and and/or knows he is gay. Whether he believes the "I'm not queer" or is just posing. Whether the Mexico threat is about homophobia or jealousy and whether his lakeside collapse is about facing his sexuality or the fear he's losing Jack. I'm in the early/posing/jealousy/fear of losing school.
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And so am I.

I know all too well how realistic it is that a person may have come to some hard-won and difficult self-realizations, and yet prove nearly unable to change, develop or take action based on the self-realization. To me it is entirely real, and more poignantly tragic, that Ennis *would* be conscious of the facts that he is queer, and that he loves Jack, - and yet based on his childhood conditioning and society’s general strictures be unable to take the consequences and make the changes that would award him that sweet life Jack talks of.

I'd like to mention up-front, though, that I don't think it's possible to reach a consensus on the topics under discussion here - they cut too deep and touch too personal places - and we all come at them from slightly different angles and with differing interpretations and emotions in tow. So rather than "counterarguments and refutations" I consider any comments I give to be explanations of my personal views, nothing more. I don't try to convince anyone to change their minds, and I am not insisting - ever - that my views are the "right ones".


That out of the way, I'd like to latch on to this quote of Ruthlessly's and take it from there:


--- Quote ---This is why Ennis' anger at Jack in the final lake scene is not about jealousy.  It's about fear.  That's his controlling emotion.  It's not that Ennis was jealous of Jack being with another man.  It was that Ennis was mad as hell at Jack that he broke their one-shot pact, their "I ain't queer" pact.  Because by breaking it, Jack said "I'm queer."  And that would make Ennis queer.  And his fears would not allow him to accept that reality.
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I completely agree with you that Ennis's anger and later break-down in the lake scene is not about jealousy. I think it’s only partly about fear, though. And *not* fear of being queer / being found out as queer,-but fear of losing Jack. I don't see the fear of being outed as the only overriding fear throughout Ennis's life – there’s a development as the years pass;  his fear of being abandoned by Jack increasing over time. And at the Lake, Jack is standing there saying all this out loud: I've been going with others - you're too much for me – I’m not like you - I wish I knew how to quit you.

I agree with you concerning when Ennis falls in love. I agree concerning when he realized that Jack loved him. There’s a gap of nearly 20 years between the two events. I cannot pinpoint when, exactly, Ennis realizes that he loves Jack, but IMO it was early in the relationship. This is important to me because the knowledge of love intensifies Ennis’s fear of losing Jack, and his despair and desperation at being unable to do anything but what his homophobia dictates: Cut the connection, get married, stay married, pretend to being “normal”, meet way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, send Jack packing when he comes to Riverton, find a girlfriend, make himself about as accessible as the pope….. I believe as I do because I, like Katherine, cannot envisaging Ennis behaving the way he did, feeling like he did, responding physically and emotionally the way he did, and yet never reflecting about his emotions for Jack, never admitting to himself that the thing that grabs hold of him is love (or whichever word he’d care to use for that).

As for my opinion about whether Ennis thinks of himself as queer or not: I believe he does, and survives through compartmentalizing his life – the everyday “straight” one, and the “queer one” with Jack. After all, he was given a strong reason to be agonizingly sensitive to the issue, to worry over it and reflect on it, and to be on guard for any signs of “queerness” in himself – through his father’s callous and inhumane action towards his sons. I don’t think Ennis is in denial about himself – but he’s a master at repressing and shutting that part down in a deep dark recess of his mind, having been shown the need for doing so for his very own survival. I think he believes he could force it into submission, make it go away even, an effort that demanded a lot of his energy. Which is one reason (though not the only one) why he comes across almost as an emotionally clenched fist.

For admitting to himself that he’s queer doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near accepting it, or making his personal internal peace with it, though – not until the very end after he’s completely and utterly worn out. Ennis is a homophobe  and is filled with self-loathing.
That being so, I completely agree Ennis deeply fears being found out and outed. Oh, how he fears that, and not mainly because of the threat of physical violence, but because of the horrible shame it would entail. He is prepared to watch Jack drive out of his life in -63 for good because of it.

I also agree his paranoia increases over time.  As he has to admit to himself that he is not only queer, but unable to contain and repress his inclinations even after having returned back to “real life” from Brokeback, the risk of being found out, in his view, increases correspondingly and steadily. Full paranoia strikes as Alma cons him into believing that she’s deduced it from an innocent error on his part – if she could figure it out, others can, too. (I’ve always held that Alma got her revenge and then some when she didn’t admit to Ennis just how she found out about him and Jack.)

So here is Ennis; on a day-to-day basis he’s dealt with his fear of being outed and his shame of actually being queer through some sort of balancing act: The more the fear and shame and paranoia press on his mind, the more he behaves in counterpoint. Making himself continually (and apparently increasingly) inaccessible to Jack. Not opening up to let Jack in on his emotions, not letting Jack see that it’s in fact nearly killing him to have to make it on those few meetings a year. Not responding when Jack talks of missing him. As they reach the breaking point he hurls threats and accusations. He’s constantly acting in his own worst interest, and he knows that.  Is he punishing himself for being queer, thinking he deserves the misery he’s meting out? Is he distancing himself from the most loathed part of him (the queerness), and the most beloved (Jack), tangled up all in one as they are? Is he following his usual way of forcing those who care for him to quit him through his abandoning them first, emotionally and/or physically. (Is this just so much psycho-babble?  :-\ ::) )

In any case, he’s pushing himself towards actively engineering the eventual loss of Jack, the man he IMO is aware of loving and doesn’t want to lose for the world.

That he manages to carry on for 15 years with this sort of constant internal tug-of-war is simply amazing – what strength! And what a tragedy, the way his strength is employed……

I’m getting to my conclusion of this far-too-meandering and too-incoherent post: In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against:  Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change…. I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback. That must be truly frightening and lonely places to be.

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 29, 2006, 04:18:58 am ---I think we're confronting what may be the biggest and maybe most immutable divide among Brokies -- more so than whether we empathize with Jack or Ennis (though there's probably some overlap). It's about when we think is the point in the movie -- early on or at the end? -- Ennis knows he loves Jack and and/or knows he is gay. Whether he believes the "I'm not queer" or is just posing. Whether the Mexico threat is about homophobia or jealousy and whether his lakeside collapse is about facing his sexuality or the fear he's losing Jack. I'm in the early/posing/jealousy/fear of losing school.
--- End quote ---

With me, I can be in all of the camps or schools because I always look at every scene and every line as text, subtext, and metaphor (symbolism).  We all should agree on text since that’s what right in front of our faces. 

As to subtext, that’s where we all diverge.  I think there’s almost always more than one subtext going on, so I fall into all kinds of camps.  When I say something like “Mexico is not about jealousy, it’s fear of being queer,” what I really mean is that for me, following a thread of fear of being queer throughout, it’s about fear of being queer.  Now, if someone can come up with a thread of jealousy or fear of losing Jack that follows throughout the movie, then I’d be just fine with that other subtext.  Unfortunately, no one has ever done this – to my satisfaction – and I don’t like seeing just one instance of an explanation when another explanation seems to follow consistently throughout.

As to the metaphorical/symbolic level, we all don’t seem to diverge quite as much.  On this level, as long as the metaphor runs fairly smoothly and consistently throughout, people usually go with it.



--- Quote ---I believe Ennis knew he was gay long before he met Jack. He'd felt attracted to men for years, maybe since around the Earl time -- which is why the nightmare of growing up with a father who hates homosexuality enough to torture somebody to death for it made Ennis so pathologically shy and socially awkward. He's had to constantly hide a part of himself, to repress his thoughts whenever they come up, literally out of fear for his life. And he has become very practiced at it, as the crow-hopping scene illustrates. But hiding it isn't just a practical safety precaution; that horrific upbringing also colored Ennis' attitude. He hates his sexuality, he thinks his dad was right. So he doesn't like to admit it to himself (unlike Jack, shows little inner conflict about it). But at some level, Ennis knows how he feels about men. Just as later, he knows how he feels about Jack.
--- End quote ---

I agree completely, except with the first sentence, but I think you re-worded it nicely at the end of the quote.  “Ennis KNEW he was GAY” (my emphasis) is too much for me.  But I have no problem at all with “But at some level, Ennis knows how he feels about men.”  (Better, Jack.)



--- Quote ---I agree with most of what you say here -- he is terrified of being queer, and of being found out -- but not with your contention that he's so terrified he won't admit it to himself. Ennis may have attached all kinds of negative attributes to "queerness." But he also knows what it basically means -- a man who has sex with men. And he knows what he and Jack did last night, and that he wanted to do it then and to continue doing it. He realizes what that means. He doesn't want to slap the "queer" label on it, so he tries for a while to put those two ideas in separate compartments -- queerness is bad, being with Jack is good -- and manages to keep them tenuously separate (though not completely, hence his reluctance to party with the fire-and-brimstone crowd). But the dividers between these ideas gradually break down, increasing his fear that people -- on the pavement, in the white pickup -- "know."
--- End quote ---

Yes.  He knows that being queer is having sex with men.  But, here’s a crucial point -- I don’t think Ennis thinks of himself as queer or as having sex with men.  He has sex with Jack.  Nit picky?  Splitting hairs?  Not really.  Compartmentalizing seemingly consistent description with behavior into seemingly inconsistent compartments is what we as humans all do best.  Ennis has completely separated his understanding of his relationship with Jack apart from his internalized understanding of “queer.”  I think this a key point to the character of Ennis.  He knows what “queer” is, but he, himself, is not “queer.”  We say, “huh?”  But to Ennis it makes perfect sense.



--- Quote ---It's almost impossible to imagine Ennis under any circumstances saying, "If this deep love I have for you, Jack, grabs hold of me at the wrong place, wrong time ..."
--- End quote ---

 :laugh:     (Or to see Ennis say "C'mon, Jack, meet my girls ... girls, say "hi" ... this is Jack, he's gonna be your new mommy.")



--- Quote ---He can express love physically, but rarely verbally -- the closest he comes is the "sending up a prayer of thanks" scene. (Which does come awfully close; he tells Jack he is so happy to be with him again that he is thanking God for it -- yes, he follows with a harmonica joke ((because, again, he's not a verbally affectionate guy)), but the slight pause Ennis gives after Jack says "For what?" is like Ennis saying, "Well, duh!")
--- End quote ---

Don’t forget the “well, wrr-wrr-wrr” in the motel scene.  Or “nothing, nowhere, because of you.”



--- Quote ---Anyway, there are plenty of stoic taciturn men who, though not conflicted about their sexuality, never use the word "love" to their partners -- yet nevertheless know they feel it. IMO, Ennis is one of those guys.
--- End quote ---

Once again, I don’t deny the feelings that Ennis has, or that he knows that he has them.  It’s just what he calls them, how he processes and compartmentalizes them, has to fall in line with his character development, and his character is not one to understand love very well.



--- Quote ---I believe he doesn't separate the two that distinctly. Yes, "knows" means knowing what the two of them do, but he realizes that has implications about both their sexuality.
--- End quote ---

I still think Ennis has a disconnect here.  It’s his coping mechanism.



--- Quote ---When he asks if everything is "normal" between Jack and Lureen, it's because he knows it sure as hell wasn't normal with Alma. (And Jack lets him down here, too, IMO, by not admitting that his relationship with Lureen actually isn't ideal. Though Jack may just be trying to stay clear of Ennis' startle point.)
--- End quote ---

Could be the startle point, but it could also be that Jack does view his marriage as “normal.”  Even Lureen says MEN don’t want to dance with their wives.  That’s the norm… MEN don’t … well, you know!

But I think when he says “normal” here he’s referring (for the audience sake) to what just happened at Thanksgiving.  He then brings up whether Lureen suspects.  He could mean “It’s all OK with you two, the secret’s still safe?”  Ennis has a strange way of phrasing things.  For example he prefaces this with his comment about going out on the pavement.  Huh?  Who ever says that?  And how is that different from “in town?”  But the word is there to tie back to him getting beaten to the pavement in the previous scene and to him raking pavement early in his marriage.  He could be referring to the fact that Alma caught Ennis making mistakes (not noticing the note and taking care of it) and he could be asking Jack if he’s making mistakes that Lureen is finding out about.  (Hmmmm, this line of thought could take us straight to the argument that some people make about Jack dying by gay-bash murder because he gets careless…)



--- Quote ---So he knows all these things as he goes along. After Jack's death, he realizes that hiding them was not worth losing the love of his life. Visiting the Twists, as I suggested earlier, means coming out to them. He's willing to face the Twists "knowing" -- in the kitchen, he realizes they both know, yet stays calm about it, doesn't run out and get himself beat up --  in order to do right by Jack.
--- End quote ---

I can go with this.  Also, it’s interesting that throughout the film, the societal homophobia has no real impact on him – in terms of having his worst fear realized.  Yes, I know, it’s homophobia that placed that fear into him in the first place.  But after that, Aguirre finds out, and it has no impact on Ennis.  Alma sees them kiss, and it has no direct impact on Ennis.  She sits on it for a long time.  She outs him in the kitchen at her Thanksgiving Spectacular and, yet, still, there’s no real impact – he’s the one who starts the fight with the driver.  It’s his fears that have the impact on him.  And the Twist home scene is his first step, not in coming out, but in overcoming his fears.

(You know, I always thought that maybe the Twist ranch wouldn’t be so rundown if Old Man Twist would get off his ass and do some work instead of just sitting in the kitchen spitting tobacco in the middle of the day.  I’m sure Ennis would have appreciated his absence.  But, we all know he had to be there to work the development in Ennis.)



--- Quote ---Yeah, he reverts to his old ways, for about half a minute. His reflex is to tell her he's supposed to work -- because, in fact, he is. But since Jack's death he has been going over his mistakes, and realizing that his big one was putting other considerations ahead of love. He remembers this when he sees her disappointed look, and immediately changes his mind.
--- End quote ---

Yes.  He is changing.  But it’s very slow.  Maybe, today, in 2006, he can hold one of his little great-grandchildren and say “I love you.”  Maybe.

(Just thought of something.  Since you’re a self-described romantic, wouldn’t it be even better if Ennis was saving his first, true “I love you” for when he meets up with Jack again, in spirit?  That’s kinda precious, if you ask me.  And people call me ruthlessly unsentimental… geez!   ;))

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