Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 29, 2006, 04:13:56 pm ---(Just thought of something. Since you’re a self-described romantic, wouldn’t it be even better if Ennis was saving his first, true “I love you” for when he meets up with Jack again, in spirit? That’s kinda precious, if you ask me. And people call me ruthlessly unsentimental… geez!)
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:laugh:
Guess I'm a romantic with a need for immediate gratification and little faith in the afterlife.
You're right that he "almost" says it those other two times. Not only that, but I'm one of those -- and I know this is highly contested -- who believe that he actually says "I love you" in the closet, to the empty shirts.
As for the other issues, I don't have time to write anything; I was supposed to be on the road half an hour ago and yet I'm still here, unable to tear myself away from my computer. But for now, let me just say ditto, ditto, ditto to Mikaela's post. All of what she says pretty much exactly match my views.
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 29, 2006, 03:55:07 pm ---In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against: Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change…. I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback. That must be truly frightening and lonely places to be.
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Beautifully expressed, Mikaela! :-*
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 29, 2006, 03:55:07 pm ---With that, Hi ruthlesslyunsentimental - good to make your acquaintance!
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Pleased to meet you, ma’am.
--- Quote ---I completely agree with you that Ennis's anger and later break-down in the lake scene is not about jealousy. I think it’s only partly about fear, though. And *not* fear of being queer / being found out as queer,-but fear of losing Jack. I don't see the fear of being outed as the only overriding fear throughout Ennis's life – there’s a development as the years pass; his fear of being abandoned by Jack increasing over time. And at the Lake, Jack is standing there saying all this out loud: I've been going with others - you're too much for me – I’m not like you - I wish I knew how to quit you.
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Yep. No problem here. Just another subtext that works for me. As we’ve said above, rejection is a major force in Ennis’ life, too.
--- Quote ---I agree with you concerning when Ennis falls in love. I agree concerning when he realized that Jack loved him. There’s a gap of nearly 20 years between the two events. I cannot pinpoint when, exactly, Ennis realizes that he loves Jack, but IMO it was early in the relationship. This is important to me because the knowledge of love intensifies Ennis’s fear of losing Jack, and his despair and desperation at being unable to do anything but what his homophobia dictates: Cut the connection, get married, stay married, pretend to being “normal”, meet way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, send Jack packing when he comes to Riverton, find a girlfriend, make himself about as accessible as the pope….. I believe as I do because I, like Katherine, cannot envisaging Ennis behaving the way he did, feeling like he did, responding physically and emotionally the way he did, and yet never reflecting about his emotions for Jack, never admitting to himself that the thing that grabs hold of him is love (or whichever word he’d care to use for that).
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I agree with everything except just one tiny thing – the word “love.” That’s a tiny thing isn’t it? ;) I think it’s his inability to make the connection between his physical and emotional responses to Jack with the word “love” that intensifies his fear of losing Jack AND of being “queer.” The intensity is his non-understanding. It would seem to me to be logical that if he understands his feelings and his relationship with Jack and the word “love,” that he would be able to address these issues and work through them and not be so conflicted. But he only does this over a long twenty year period. He is working toward an understanding, but it’s taking a lot of time, it’s taking a lot of experiences, it’s taking a lot of denials and rejections on his part, it’s taking a lot of conversations (not just with Jack). It seems to me that the whole film from the reunion river scene until the end amounts mainly to people, events, actions, and inactions working on Ennis to bring him to an understanding of the disconnected dots in his life (his physical and emotional responses to Jack, the word “queer,” his feelings, the word “love,” his relationships with others such as Alma (both Sr. and Jr.) and Cassie).
--- Quote ---… I don’t think Ennis is in denial about himself – but he’s a master at repressing and shutting that part down in a deep dark recess of his mind, having been shown the need for doing so for his very own survival. I think he believes he could force it into submission, make it go away even, an effort that demanded a lot of his energy. Which is one reason (though not the only one) why he comes across almost as an emotionally clenched fist.
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To me, everything you wrote after the dash adds up “denial.” I’m not sure how you’re distinguishing the two.
--- Quote ---For admitting to himself that he’s queer doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near accepting it, or making his personal internal peace with it, though – not until the very end after he’s completely and utterly worn out. Ennis is a homophobe and is filled with self-loathing.
That being so, I completely agree Ennis deeply fears being found out and outed. Oh, how he fears that, and not mainly because of the threat of physical violence, but because of the horrible shame it would entail. He is prepared to watch Jack drive out of his life in -63 for good because of it.
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While I see Ennis as being terribly fearful of being outed by others and to others, I guess I see Ennis as being even more afraid of being outed by himself, to himself.
--- Quote ---Full paranoia strikes as Alma cons him into believing that she’s deduced it from an innocent error on his part – if she could figure it out, others can, too. (I’ve always held that Alma got her revenge and then some when she didn’t admit to Ennis just how she found out about him and Jack.)
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This is excellent! You get the Best-New-Brokeback-Idea-I’ve-Heard-in-a-Long-Time Award. Someone! Get this woman a can of beans!
--- Quote ---So here is Ennis; on a day-to-day basis he’s dealt with his fear of being outed and his shame of actually being queer through some sort of balancing act: The more the fear and shame and paranoia press on his mind, the more he behaves in counterpoint. Making himself continually (and apparently increasingly) inaccessible to Jack. Not opening up to let Jack in on his emotions, not letting Jack see that it’s in fact nearly killing him to have to make it on those few meetings a year. Not responding when Jack talks of missing him. As they reach the breaking point he hurls threats and accusations. He’s constantly acting in his own worst interest, and he knows that. Is he punishing himself for being queer, thinking he deserves the misery he’s meting out? Is he distancing himself from the most loathed part of him (the queerness), and the most beloved (Jack), tangled up all in one as they are? Is he following his usual way of forcing those who care for him to quit him through his abandoning them first, emotionally and/or physically.
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Again, excellent. The only thing I’d do is change “his shame of actually being queer” to “his fear of outing himself, to himself.” Then it really works for me.
(Oh, and I guess I’d also change “tangled up all in one as they are” to “all tied up in knots.” But that’s because I love the metaphorical level.)
--- Quote ---Is this just so much psycho-babble?
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NO! And this is an answer I won’t budge from.
--- Quote ---I’m getting to my conclusion of this far-too-meandering and too-incoherent post: In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against: Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change….
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I disagree with “far-too-meandering and too-incoherent post.” Otherwise, nicely said.
--- Quote ---I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback.
--- End quote ---
He’s probably thinking “Boy, that was harder than untanglin’ them Chilean sheep!” – just to end on a lighter note.
Great discussion! Thanks!
dly64:
First, Ruth - I have to respond to your ..... ummmm .... discussion of what I should have called the "you know what..."
--- Quote ---Jack took Ennis’ hand and put it on his…
… manhood … little Jack … 21st digit … bean stalk (get it? Jack’s bean stalk…) … Jack in the box … pride and joy … should I start a new thread?
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OMG!!! I just laughed so hard I could hardly breath!!! Yes, there could be many other names I could have used. You win on that one!!! :laugh:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 29, 2006, 03:55:07 pm ---I guess there's a lot I'd like to comment on, but there is the old, cold issue of time…….never enough. :( Katherine’s latest post says much that I intended to say – very well put! (I apologise that some of my post may seem to be repeating Katerine’s points – I wrote part of my response late last night but then didn’t have time to finish it till now. And of course………interesting things have happened here in the meantime!)
I know all too well how realistic it is that a person may have come to some hard-won and difficult self-realizations, and yet prove nearly unable to change, develop or take action based on the self-realization. To me it is entirely real, and more poignantly tragic, that Ennis *would* be conscious of the facts that he is queer, and that he loves Jack, - and yet based on his childhood conditioning and society’s general strictures be unable to take the consequences and make the changes that would award him that sweet life Jack talks of.
I'd like to mention up-front, though, that I don't think it's possible to reach a consensus on the topics under discussion here - they cut too deep and touch too personal places - and we all come at them from slightly different angles and with differing interpretations and emotions in tow. So rather than "counterarguments and refutations" I consider any comments I give to be explanations of my personal views, nothing more. I don't try to convince anyone to change their minds, and I am not insisting - ever - that my views are the "right ones".
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Ditto. I enjoy hearing all points of view, however. It makes the experience of BBM more enjoyable!
--- Quote ---I completely agree with you that Ennis's anger and later break-down in the lake scene is not about jealousy. I think it’s only partly about fear, though. And *not* fear of being queer / being found out as queer,-but fear of losing Jack. I don't see the fear of being outed as the only overriding fear throughout Ennis's life – there’s a development as the years pass; his fear of being abandoned by Jack increasing over time. And at the Lake, Jack is standing there saying all this out loud: I've been going with others - you're too much for me – I’m not like you - I wish I knew how to quit you.
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I think this is an interesting point that I had not really considered. I don't think the whole "Mexico" discussion was a revelation to Ennis. He knew .... I believe he knew or suspected something. However, I still think Ennis felt betrayed and hurt. I don't know that I would classify that as jealousy.
--- Quote ---I agree with you concerning when Ennis falls in love. I agree concerning when he realized that Jack loved him. There’s a gap of nearly 20 years between the two events. I cannot pinpoint when, exactly, Ennis realizes that he loves Jack, but IMO it was early in the relationship. This is important to me because the knowledge of love intensifies Ennis’s fear of losing Jack, and his despair and desperation at being unable to do anything but what his homophobia dictates: Cut the connection, get married, stay married, pretend to being “normal”, meet way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, send Jack packing when he comes to Riverton, find a girlfriend, make himself about as accessible as the pope….. I believe as I do because I, like Katherine, cannot envisaging Ennis behaving the way he did, feeling like he did, responding physically and emotionally the way he did, and yet never reflecting about his emotions for Jack, never admitting to himself that the thing that grabs hold of him is love (or whichever word he’d care to use for that).
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This is where I have a divergent opinion ... I do believe Ennis loved Jack very early on. I don't believe, however, that he understood what he was feeling was love. When they departed BBM, Ennis broke down. He was angry at himself for having any intensity of feeling (for Jack). IMO, it wasn't until he breaks down at the lake that he realized the intensity of his feelings were "love" ... which, ultimately, was too late .... after Jack was gone. Ennis had to live the rest of his life dealing with regret and disillusionment.
--- Quote ---As for my opinion about whether Ennis thinks of himself as queer or not: I believe he does, and survives through compartmentalizing his life – the everyday “straight” one, and the “queer one” with Jack. After all, he was given a strong reason to be agonizingly sensitive to the issue, to worry over it and reflect on it, and to be on guard for any signs of “queerness” in himself – through his father’s callous and inhumane action towards his sons. I don’t think Ennis is in denial about himself – but he’s a master at repressing and shutting that part down in a deep dark recess of his mind, having been shown the need for doing so for his very own survival. I think he believes he could force it into submission, make it go away even, an effort that demanded a lot of his energy. Which is one reason (though not the only one) why he comes across almost as an emotionally clenched fist.
For admitting to himself that he’s queer doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near accepting it, or making his personal internal peace with it, though – not until the very end after he’s completely and utterly worn out. Ennis is a homophobe and is filled with self-loathing.
That being so, I completely agree Ennis deeply fears being found out and outed. Oh, how he fears that, and not mainly because of the threat of physical violence, but because of the horrible shame it would entail. He is prepared to watch Jack drive out of his life in -63 for good because of it.
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I agree with much of what you say. The one thing I disgree on, however, is Ennis' knowledge that he is homosexual. He is in denial. I think the sentence (although other Brokies disagree on this) ... "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothin' ... I'm nowhere ..." indicates that he blames Jack for all of his feelings. (i.e. that he loves a man). So, being the dork that I am ... I just want to quote the dictionary for the word, "denial":
a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality
That explains Ennis. Even after Jack has died, I don't think Ennis considered himself gay. He did, however, know he loved Jack and that he has lost the one person who understood him completely.
--- Quote ---I also agree his paranoia increases over time. As he has to admit to himself that he is not only queer, but unable to contain and repress his inclinations even after having returned back to “real life” from Brokeback, the risk of being found out, in his view, increases correspondingly and steadily. Full paranoia strikes as Alma cons him into believing that she’s deduced it from an innocent error on his part – if she could figure it out, others can, too. (I’ve always held that Alma got her revenge and then some when she didn’t admit to Ennis just how she found out about him and Jack.)
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I think this is a very good point. IMO, it was not that he was worried other people would find out he was gay .... it was that they would find out he was having relations with a man (which may seem like splitting hairs, but it isn't. He did not see himself as "queer").
--- Quote ---So here is Ennis; on a day-to-day basis he’s dealt with his fear of being outed and his shame of actually being queer through some sort of balancing act: The more the fear and shame and paranoia press on his mind, the more he behaves in counterpoint. Making himself continually (and apparently increasingly) inaccessible to Jack. Not opening up to let Jack in on his emotions, not letting Jack see that it’s in fact nearly killing him to have to make it on those few meetings a year. Not responding when Jack talks of missing him. As they reach the breaking point he hurls threats and accusations. He’s constantly acting in his own worst interest, and he knows that. Is he punishing himself for being queer, thinking he deserves the misery he’s meting out? Is he distancing himself from the most loathed part of him (the queerness), and the most beloved (Jack), tangled up all in one as they are? Is he following his usual way of forcing those who care for him to quit him through his abandoning them first, emotionally and/or physically. (Is this just so much psycho-babble? :-\ ::) )
In any case, he’s pushing himself towards actively engineering the eventual loss of Jack, the man he IMO is aware of loving and doesn’t want to lose for the world.
That he manages to carry on for 15 years with this sort of constant internal tug-of-war is simply amazing – what strength! And what a tragedy, the way his strength is employed……
I’m getting to my conclusion of this far-too-meandering and too-incoherent post: In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against: Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change…. I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback. That must be truly frightening and lonely places to be.
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You have a lot of compelling arguements here and there are some things I agree with. However, the crux of what you say has to do with Ennis' knowledge that he is homosexual and that he loves Jack. That is where I have a divergent opinion. I don't think Ennis acknowledges that he is gay, ever. He doesn't see himself in those terms. As for loving Jack .... he realized it, IMO, at the lake scene after he broke down. You know I have used quotes before from the screenwriters and Ang on another post, so I won't repeat it here. It's okay to disregard what Diana, Larry and Ang have said. But, IMO, everything reinforces my opinion that Ennis did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. Therein lies the tragedy.
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: dly64 on June 29, 2006, 08:19:13 pm ---First, Ruth - I have to respond to your ..... ummmm .... discussion of what I should have called the "you know what..."
OMG!!! I just laughed so hard I could hardly breath!!! Yes, there could be many other names I could have used. You win on that one!!! :laugh:
--- End quote ---
Well, as usual, I tried to avoid the obvious…
I know the rest of your responses were to mikaela’s post, but I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here with my two cents worth.
--- Quote ---IMO, it wasn't until he breaks down at the lake that he realized the intensity of his feelings were "love" ... which, ultimately, was too late .... after Jack was gone. Ennis had to live the rest of his life dealing with regret and disillusionment.
--- End quote ---
I’m not sure. I think this is where all of his worlds, all of his truths, lies and secrets, all came together and crashed head-on. So I think that his lakeside breakdown coalesces all of these things for him so that from this point on, he has to start thinking of everything in a new way. It seems to me that here is where the word “love” is struggling to make itself known to Ennis. After this he talks with Cassie who explains that it’s not about fun – a clue to Ennis that Jack did not compartmentalize their relationship as fun. Then he talks with Lureen… here, the two people who could claim Jack as their “husband” (if you will) come together and talk. Here, Lureen gives Ennis another clue that Jack did not compartmentalize their relationship in the same way that Ennis did. Then he pays a call on the Twists and sets a spell. Old Man Twist gives Ennis another two clues about how Jack viewed their relationship. And here is where Ennis gets to see two people who were significant in Jack's life and how differently they viewed him. He can feel the contempt oozing out of Old Man Twist; but, Mrs. Twist shows Ennis that she is someone who loved Jack and, with her hand of compassion, nudges Ennis to go and find that love -- all of this building up in Ennis and culminating in finding the shirts. Here, to me, is where Ennis realizes it was “love.” This is what makes his reaction to Jr.’s affirmation of Kurt’s love for her so poignant. She’s 19, the same age as he was when he met Jack, and he’s making sure that she knows that Kurt loves her so that she won’t have to go through the next twenty years without understanding, as he did.
--- Quote --- So, being the dork that I am ... I just want to quote the dictionary for the word, "denial":
a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality
That explains Ennis. Even after Jack has died, I don't think Ennis considered himself gay. He did, however, know he loved Jack and that he has lost the one person who understood him completely.
--- End quote ---
I agree. This is certainly my take on it. He’s just a big old bundle of “psychological defense mechanisms,” ain’t he? :laugh:
--- Quote ---I think this is a very good point. IMO, it was not that he was worried other people would find out he was gay .... it was that they would find out he was having relations with a man (which may seem like splitting hairs, but it isn't. He did not see himself as "queer").
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Or, that he was worried that he, himself, would find out that he, himself, is “queer.” No more denying it.
--- Quote ---IMO, everything reinforces my opinion that Ennis did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. Therein lies the tragedy.
--- End quote ---
Very well put, dly64. You should have been up on that mountain. :)
dly64:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 30, 2006, 02:40:45 am ---I know the rest of your responses were to mikaela’s post, but I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here with my two cents worth.
--- End quote ---
I was hoping to hear your opinion!
--- Quote ---I’m not sure. think this is where all of his worlds, all of his truths, lies and secrets, all came together and crashed head-on. So I think that his lakeside breakdown coalesces all of these things for him so that from this point on, he has to start thinking of everything in a new way. It seems to me that here is where the word “love” is struggling to make itself known to Ennis. After this he talks with Cassie who explains that it’s not about fun – a clue to Ennis that Jack did not compartmentalize their relationship as fun. Then he talks with Lureen… here, the two people who could claim Jack as their “husband” (if you will) come together and talk. Here, Lureen gives Ennis another clue that Jack did not compartmentalize their relationship in the same way that Ennis did. Then he pays a call on the Twists and sets a spell. Old Man Twist gives Ennis another two clues about how Jack viewed their relationship. And here is where Ennis gets to see two people who were significant in Jack's life and how differently they viewed him. He can feel the contempt oozing out of Old Man Twist; but, Mrs. Twist shows Ennis that she is someone who loved Jack and, with her hand of compassion, nudges Ennis to go and find that love -- all of this building up in Ennis and culminating in finding the shirts. Here, to me, is where Ennis realizes it was “love.” This is what makes his reaction to Jr.’s affirmation of Kurt’s love for her so poignant. She’s 19, the same age as he was when he met Jack, and he’s making sure that she knows that Kurt loves her so that she won’t have to go through the next twenty years without understanding, as he did.
--- End quote ---
I can agree with your sentences that I highlighted in blue above. I especially like the last part of your statement. I had not thought of it in that way, but I definitely agree with it.
I already am known as the queen of quotes ... so Katherine, Mikaela et.al. ... just ignore this statement. For me it was helpful. Previously, in another thread, I quoted Ang Lee, Diana Ossana and Larry McMurty ...:
You've been quoted as saying the movie is about the impossibility of love?
Ang Lee: I think the gay factors, after a while, maybe half the movie, the circumstances are set. They can live together. Ennis has a choice to make it work. That's why Jack complains later in the movie. All they got is Brokeback? That's bullshit. They're both gays, but one chooses to be more adventurous. The other has to go through self denial and only accepts it when it's too late, when he missed him. That is true. Eventually we surpass the obstacles and it's really a search for that obscure object of love.
http://www.movieweb.com/news/28/10128.php
Here is another interview with Diana Ossana and Larry McMurty that also indicates when Ennis realized he loved Jack:
MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?
DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”
http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/
A second interview talks about Ennis' homophobia at what point he gets to by the end of the film:
McMurtry: I don’t think Ennis would kill himself.
Ossana: He’s too tough. That would be a sign of weakness, and it would leave a memory of him as being weak, and I don’t think he would want that. But I do think that Ennis knows that people probably know that he’s homosexual, and emotionally [at the end of the film] I think he makes a tiny bit of progress, because he agrees to attend Alma Jr.’s wedding. Finally he compromises—
McMurtry: And doesn’t disappoint a woman.
Ossana: It’s the first time in the film that he doesn’t disappoint someone, male or female. It’s a tiny baby step, but he does it. I just don’t know how much [more] he’s capable of changing. I think if anything, he might become even more homophobic and bitter because of what he did, what he gave up, what he lost, what he’ll never have.
http://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=2
--- Quote ---Or, that he was worried that he, himself, would find out that he, himself, is “queer.” No more denying it.
--- End quote ---
I think what you say has validity. I just have the belief, however, that he did not see himself as gay, period. He was never able to come to grips with that truth. He did come to realize that all of the feelings he had for Jack were, indeed, love. But by that time, it was too late.
What I find interesting is that when Ennis goes up to Jack's room, and he opens the window .... IMO, it symbolizes the opening of himself to Jack. Jack's closet door was open, but the shirts were (partially) hidden. I think that illustrates two things: 1) that Jack was more open to his own sexuality (i.e. that he was gay), but 2) he kept his relationship with Ennis hidden, private and cherished.
The shirts in Ennis' closet represent his love for Jack. It, too, is kept hidden, private and cherished. But he closes the closet door. IMO, he is accepting his love for Jack, but he keeps, even to himself, his sexuality "in the closet".
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