Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
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serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on July 09, 2006, 01:05:49 pm --- But that points to both the typicality of the situation in the period and location, and also that a ranch is no place for toddlers with no one to look after them.
--- End quote ---
Right. I'm not saying the general culture of the time and place wasn't sexist, nor that a ranch doesn't present childcare difficulties (though countless children have survived them).
--- Quote --- As for Ennis calling his family, remember, his parents are dead, his sister is in Casper (am I confused or remembering that correctly?), and I think we don't really know where his married brother is living. It never occurred to me to question that Alma's "people," including her sister, were the ones close by, so that Ennis calling his own sister wouldn't even have entered into the calculation.
--- End quote ---
Hunh? I must have misworded -- I wasn't suggesting Ennis call his own relatives. I was saying it would be easier for Alma to call her sister than it would be for Ennis to call Alma's sister.
--- Quote --- He is jeopardizing her ability to make needed extra money--but that look on his face says to me that he clearly devalues her job compared to his own (one male ego speaking to another, I guess. ;) )
--- End quote ---
Well, again, I don't read the look that way -- I read it as suggesting that it's easier for her to take the kids under the circumstances than it would be for him. He's putting on pressure, yes. And it's quite possible he does value his job over hers. But here, his motivation seems to be to be less about male domination than expedience.
ZouBEini, the expression of Ennis' that might convey that kind of threatening look, in my view, is the one he gives Jack when he says "all them things that I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them." Here he looks less threatening than imploring.
--- Quote ---We will really have to agree to disagree yet again, because I do not believe that the filmmakers "go out of their way elsewhere to show Ennis is NOT that sexist." I see virtually all of his behavior toward Alma as sexist.
--- End quote ---
Hunh? Outside of the ash-can scene -- and of course the grocery store scene we're debating -- where do you see this?
--- Quote --- I see his behavior as sexist though typical of a man raised when and where and with the value system that he was raised ... I see those bits of business where Ennis displays caring behavior toward his daughters as only intending only to convey that he loves them, nothing more, nothing about his ideas or role in their care.
--- End quote ---
I agree that the value system in which he was raised is undoubtedly sexist -- we know that because we know something about the culture of rural uneducated America. But I see his behavior as distinctly atypical of that. As I said, he doesn't come home from work and crack a beer and turn on the TV and put his feet up and yell, "Hey Alma, I think I hear the girls crying -- better go check on em!" as the cultural sterotype would suggest.
No, just the opposite. He goes to sooth the babies, wipe their noses, later puts them to bed. I have to ask again, how often do you see men in movies doing that? It's not unheard of, but it's not common, either, and especially not when the intention is to portray a character as the sexist product of a sexist culture. To me, what Ennis is doing here IS distinctly different from just showing love. Love is promising to go to the church picnic if he doesn't have to sing. Here he's performing actual childcare -- and not the fun part, either. I don't see the "three hands" remark as venting annoyance at Alma for slaving away at her kitchen drudgery rather than rushing in to attend to her motherly duties. Not at all. I see it as the bewilderment of a man trying to sooth two screaming kids, one in each arm, a situation that can feel overwhelming to anyone, man or woman.
Look, I don't mean to portray Ennis as the Alan Alda of Riverton. I'm sure if he and I got to talking about feminism, there'd be some areas of disagreement. It's just that if Ennis were meant to seem sexist, given that there would be plenty of easy ways to suggest that, and given that men in movies aren't often shown doing domestic chores at all, then why would the fillmmakers bother showing Ennis performing childcare and clearing dishes in the first place? (It was Monroe, remember, who relaxed in front of the TV during Thanksgiving's after-dinner cleanup.)
--- Quote ---And somebody, somewhere, on some thread--it wasn't me, honest it wasn't--has wondered why Alma left the baby cry and kept on with that scrubbing rather than dry her hands, let the laundry wait, and go see to the baby.
--- End quote ---
No, I don't blame Alma, either. She had a lot of work to do and sick kids spend a lot of time crying. The reality of parenting is, sometimes you have to let kids cry for a few minutes, knowing they'll survive the experience. She was keeping close enough tabs, however, to know that a nose needed wiping.
BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.
Penthesilea:
Time and again it's fascinating, how different one and the same scene can bee seen.
Jeff sees Ennis behaving sexist in the grocery scene, because he values his job over Alma's and he leaves it to Alma to find a babysitter for the girls.
I think it's natural that he values his job over hers (given the time and circumstances), because he is the main bread winner, she provides an auxiliary income.
Additionally has she an understanding boss, he not. It's her sister, not his (in my family it's the same: I deal with my relatives, my husband with his).
In contrast, I think it's a clearly non-sexist attitude of Ennis, that he is basically willing to take care of the children while Alma's working hours.I know women (and not too few) whose husbands never would do this. Today, notabene. These women have to place their children with other women: neighbours, sisters, sisters-in-law, a grandmother or whoever. Or have to take their children to work.
In preview I see Katherine's new post. Again she has already written what I wanted to add (and more). So I just leave it to this one example. The final game of the World Championship is now on and I wanted to see it anyway. I'll come back later.
ZouBEini:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 09, 2006, 02:02:04 pm ---ZouBEini, the expression of Ennis' that might convey that kind of threatening look, in my view, is the one he gives Jack when he says "all them things that I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them." Here he looks less threatening than imploring.
--- End quote ---
Hello, latjoreme. In my experience, that look is nothing close to "imploring". "Imploring doesn't cause someone to back down as quickly as Alma did. My friends' mothers and my own aunt were frightened by that look, because a beating often followed in payment for perceived insolence.
The script might provide some indication of intent during that scene. Please let me know what proof you find.
~Larz
nakymaton:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 09, 2006, 02:02:04 pm ---BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.
--- End quote ---
Well, all I've got to go by is a couple short scenes with Lureen. And where Jack is concerned, I tend to separate pre-divorce Jack from post-divorce Jack, because something dies in Jack when he heads for Mexico, and it seems to affect him in all his relationships. (Or maybe it's just the mustache.)
Anyway. Not much to go on. Jack plays chivalrous when he first meets Lureen, but other than the moment picking up her hat, Jack doesn't play the old-time traditional man very much. We see Lureen working, even quite early in the 70's, and it doesn't seem to bother Jack that she's got the money, and she's the one who seems to be the next boss (after LD) in the family business. (And the whole exchange about Bobby's tutor -- though it seems a bit premature, given how young Bobby is at that time ;D -- suggests a much more egalitarian relationship. There's no sense that Jack thinks Lureen ought to be the one talking to the teacher; in fact, Jack's already tried and been ineffective. "I complain too much, teacher don't like me, now it's your turn.")
Jack is more willing to ditch tradition than Ennis is, plus Jack is more tuned in to other people. (You could see this as a positive or a negative thing; Jack is also a bit of a chameleon, acting like a different person in different situations, responding to what other people want or expect him to be. A good characteristic in a salesman, but can be a bit annoying in a real person.)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: ZouBEini on July 09, 2006, 02:32:08 pm ---Hello, latjoreme. In my experience, that look is nothing close to "imploring". "Imploring doesn't cause someone to back down as quickly as Alma did. My friends' mothers and my own aunt were frightened by that look, because a beating often followed in payment for perceived insolence.
The script might provide some indication of intent during that scene. Please let me know what proof you find.
~Larz
--- End quote ---
Hi Larz! Well, "imploring" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, and open to debate. But yeah, that's how I see it: imploring, beseeching, even pressuring or attempting to emotionally manipulate.
But do you see Ennis' look as suggesting that he might beat Alma for her perceived insolence?! I find no evidence to suggest he's a wife beater (aside from, as Jeff quipped, the tank top). Yeah, years later, when they're divorced and he feels embittered toward her, when she insults the love of his life and publicly accuses him -- daughters in the next room -- of doing something he's spent his entire life trying to hide, then he does grab her wrist roughly and threaten her. (And don't get me wrong -- whatever the provocation, that is not admirable behavior on Ennis' part.) But even then he doesn't actually hurt her. So it's really hard to imagine him posing a physical threat over a childcare disagreement.
He's not even really frowning! He just looks impatient and exasperated.
As to why Alma backs down so abruptly -- I don't know, it seems odd, and I've always seen that as a flaw in the scene. Maybe she suddenly decides he's right. Maybe she knows he's stubborn and won't back down, so she might as well give up now.
But surely it can't be fear of a beating -- in the ash-can scene she's not the least bit intimidated by his anger, and he's much angrier there.
Mel, your post came in while I was writing. I agree. I don't see Jack as sexist, either.
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