Wow! This is a whopper of a post!
Regarding his homosexuality, would/ did Jack:
-- Describe himself that way to others?
Diane – no
Jane - no.
Amanda- no
Mark-no
Katherine -- no.
Ruthlessly – No.
Mikaela -- No
-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?
Diane – yes, most likely.
Jane - yes.
Amanda- yes.
Mark-no, most definitely not queer, that would be considerd effeminate.
Katherine -- he might not have liked those terms, though he'd understand the meanings fit.
Ruthlessly – Yes, but I think it’s a connection he made between his actions and his feelings over time.
Mikaela -- Yes, he'd use the available / commonly used word for what he knew himself to be
-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?
Diane – As stated above …. Yes. I think he was certainly more accepting of this fact then was Ennis.
Jane - yes, and not reluctantly either. I think Jake accepted himself for what he was, he just did not advertise it.
Amanda- Yes, I agree. Jack was much more self-aware and comfortable in his own skin.
Mark-homosexual but not queer.
Katherine -- yes, and not reluctantly.
Ruthlessly – Yes.
Mikaela -- Yes, though not reluctantly
-- Notice he's attracted to men? If so, how early in his life is he aware of this?
Diane – Definitely. Unsure how old he would have been, but I would guess when he was quite young. Possibly preteen.
Jane - yes. Probably since he was a young boy, as young as six or seven.
Amanda- I know this is a wierd question in regards to Jack. But, it was in the Ennis questionnaire, so I kept it. Yes of course Jack notices. I think it all goes back to boyhood cowboy fantasies... that little cowboy toy in his room, for instance. I think early cowboy fantasies were probably important for Ennis too... of course I have no evidence for this. Just a hunch.
Mark-yes, as a teenager. In the book there is that picture of the moviesta rin his room.
Katherine -- what everybody else said.
Ruthlessly – Yes. Very early on.
Mikaela -- Yes, and from early on. No way to say how early.
-- Wish he weren't?
Diane – Hmmm … this one is a little harder for me to answer. I would guess yes, he wishes he wasn’t … primarily because it made his life more difficult and complicated.
Jane - not as concerns Ennis. I don't think he would wish his love for Ennis away. Wish he were not queer so he would fit in to regular society without having something to hide? Yeah, he probably did wish that sometimes.
Amanda- Yeah, I think that especially because of Ennis he's quite happy with his sexuality. I'd guess he'd be like that anyway.
Mark-Not after Ennis
Katherine -- Before Ennis, he might not have been thrilled, but he could live with it. After Ennis, like you all said, he's happy.
Ruthlessly – No. Ennis or not. I think he wishes he hadn’t gotten married.
Mikaela -- No,....... not after Ennis. I found this more difficult to answer than I thought - I can't imagine that Jack wouldn't also at times have wished he weren't, at least because he'd been meeting societal expectations and might have had an easier life -, not having to hide his true self to those around him. But still, - not after Ennis.
-- Lie when he says "me neither"?
Diane – I am going to be opposite of a few of you, I know. I am saying that, no, he believes that he is “not queer” (this answer depends on the day. As for today, I am saying that he is being honest).
Jane - not sure.
Amanda- I think definitely yes. I think he's trying to calm Ennis down and tell him anything that might encourage Ennis to want to continue the relationship.
Mark-no,I think they both associate queer with effeminate.
Katherine -- He might distance himself from the word itself, but he knows it applies.
Ruthlessly – **If** Jack associates queer with being effeminate, then No. If he just understands the word as “prefers men,” then Yes.
Mikaela -- Yes.
-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?
Diane – you are putting in some difficult questions!! I would say no. I think, especially by the end, he knows he is inescapably gay.
Jane - no, he knows he is queer.
Amanda- Again, this was an Ennis question... so I kept it. I agree, he knows he's gay. It amazes me how much more confident, I feel at least, in answering some of these questions about Jack. Why is his character so much easier to understand? His life with Lureen, for instance, really feels like just a show, while Ennis's marriage with Alma feels more complicated.
Mark-no as others have stated
Katherine -- No, he's convinced 100% that he is.
Ruthlessly – No.
Mikaela -- No way
-- Recognize that his relationship with Ennis constitutes a gay relationship?
Diane – Initially … I don’t know. Certainly by the time he suggests the “sweet life,” he is acknowledging that it is a gay relationship.
Jane - yes.
Amanda- yes.
Mark-the term gay was not used in those days.
Katherine -- wouldn't use the term, of course, but recognizes what it is.
Ruthlessly – I’ll go with “a homosexual relationship.” But there is a distinction in using the word “gay” in the early ‘60s. But, by the mid-‘70s, Yes.
Mikaela -- Yes. (Though I understand he wouldn't use that exact term.)
-- Recognize that his relationship with Ennis constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
Diane – no. By the time of their reunion, Jack understands.
Jane - no, it is Ennis who looks at it as this "thing", Jack in his heart knows that it is love. Even as far back as "that's the most words you've spoken in two weeks" Jack gives Ennis a look of pure love.
Amanda- I agree that Jack could name it as love. I think he's wanting to tell Ennis that he loves him during the "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" speech. I think he's too afraid of Ennis's possible reaction if he were to actually use the word love.
Mark-he knows how he feels
Katherine -- Agreed, he'd know it is love.
Ruthlessly – No. Jack can understand it and he can name it correctly - Love.
Mikaela -- No. He understands it and can name it.
-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?
Diane – No … especially by the end of his life. He knows completely that he is gay and has sexual needs that only a man can fulfill.
Jane - no, he knows he is gay all the way. He is not even attracted to women all that much, on the dance floor with Lureen, she is enraptured, and then we see Jack, so sad, you just know he's thinking of Ennis.
Amanda- No. We're given a lot more evidence about Jack's sexuality in general (Jimbo, Randall, Mexico). We don't see him ever try to have an affair with a woman. Other than the marriage of convenience with Lureen.
Mark-he knows he wants Ennis.
Katherine -- Never for a moment thinks he is attracted to women, including Lureen.
Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane, Jane, Amanda, and Katherine.
Mikaela -- No.
-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Ennis?
Diane – Yes, I think he would have been involved with another man. In love with another man? That’s a completely different question.
Jane - yes, he would have been and he already had been involved with another man.
Amanda- Yes, again this was from Ennis's questionnaire and I flipped it. Just for fun. We see Jack really try to pick up at least one guy (Jimbo). So, it seems clear that he'd have found another guy if Ennis had never come into the picture.
Mark-yes if not for Ennis
Katherine -- Yes, and it might have been Randall! (Because his life could have gone the same way sans Ennis, so he still could have met Randall.)
Ruthlessly – Yes. I’m going to get a hell of a backlash for this one… but I also believe that while he would always have love in his heart for Ennis, if he did in fact decide to go with Randall, he would have had love for Randall, too. Maybe not at first. At first, it could have been just sex. But if Jack had lived and if Jack had made a decision to divorce his wife and leave his family and move Randall up to Lightning Flat, then I think Jack would have found love for Randall. I don’t think Jack could be in that kind of committed relationship without having love for the other. I also believe he loved Lureen – just not “in love” with her.
Mikaela -- Yes. (If Jack seriously thought of living with Randall he must have thought he could learn to care for him, or had more likely already learned it. Though a dreamer, I think Jack at the same time was realist enough to realize that Ennis was a once-in-a-lifetime, and if he couldn't have him, then other aspects of love/a committed and affectionate relationship with another man might be less fulfilling, but still be some sort of *love* - and available to boot. Certainly same with Lureen. I think he had quite a lot of affection for his wife.)
-- Blame Ennis for him (Jack) being gay?
Diane – No
Jane - no f'n way!
Amanda- No, I don't think Jack thinks that way.
Mark-no
Katherine -- no.
Ruthlessly – No.
Mikaela -- No way.
-- Blame Ennis for keeping their relationship at a stand-still (i.e. "that's all we got boy, fuckin' all.")?
Diane – Definitely. If Jack had his way, they would have had a life together. (A “real good life”)
Jane - Absolutely yes, he blames Ennis.
Amanda- Yes, and we see how this wears on Jack over the years.
Mark-He understand why Ennis wont leave his family
Katherine -- Yes, he blames Ennis and is frustrated, but he also understands and for the most part forgives him
Ruthlessly – Yes. Absolutely – blame.
Mikaela -- Yes, certainly.
-- Blame Ennis for keeping him from leading the life he really wants?
Diane – Not sure I understand this question … I am going to say no. It’s not his feelings for Ennis that prevent him from leading the life he wants. It is Ennis’ fear that prevents them having a life together.
Jane - that is not a logical question, the life he really wants includes Ennis, so of course his feelings for Ennis are intertwined, not able to blame them, really.
Amanda- I fixed the question a bit... It was confusing the way I originally worded it. It's also sort of a trick question. Yes, I think he does certainly in the last argument scene. He believes that Ennis has thrown up all sorts of barriers to a perfectly excellent relationship that was worth a shot. Jack wanted a stable relationship with a partner that he loved and could build a life with. This was a sham with Lureen, and made impossible with Ennis. So, yes, I think Jack blames Ennis here. It's not fair, because it's truly not all Ennis's fault. Ennis I believe tries his best with Jack (within the context of how Ennis thinks and perceives the world before Jack's death. Everything... especially Ennis's mindset is different after Jack's death).
Mark-somewhat but again he understands his fears and comitments
Katherine -- Again, I think he blames Ennis but mostly forgives him
Ruthlessly – I think Jack blames Ennis for Ennis’ intransigence. But I think Jack blames himself for loving Ennis so much that Jack cannot seek a committed, loving relationship with another man who will not be so intransigent. Jack wants a loving, committed relationship with Ennis. And Jack knows he cannot get that. He also knows that he can’t move beyond Ennis. So, he does blame himself.
Mikaela -- Yes, because the life he really wants is the life Ennis refuses to commit to.
-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Ennis in the first place?
Diane – Absolutely, 100% no.
Jane - yes, I think sometimes when he is very sad and in the dumps thinking that Ennis will never agree to be with him more, yes, then I think he does wish he'd never met him.
Amanda- No, it was the best thing in Jack's life.
Mark-NO!!!!
Katherine -- I think there must have been moments when he wishes he'd never met Ennis (so he wouldn't have to wish he knew how to quit him!). But overall, no, Ennis is the love of his life and despite the frustrations he is much happier in the relationship than he would be without it.
Ruthlessly – I’m going to answer this the way I answered it with Ennis – at least what I meant to say with Ennis. As an on-going, life-defining feeling, NO! But, c’mon, obviously Jack has gone through moments of wishing he had never gotten involved with Ennis in the first place. It’s only natural to feel that way from time to time – especially when the one you love seems to apparently hold you back. Again, Jack does not wish he had never gotten involved with Ennis as an overarching theme of his life. But, Jack, like all of us, succumbs to disillusionment and regret from time to time – and he kept bouncing back.
Mikaela -- NO!!! (Well, OK - at times, when he was feeling the most depressed about their situation.) But still my answer is a resounding No!
Related questions:
-- Why did Jack go to Mexico? Was he punishing Ennis in some way? How did Jack feel about his trip to Mexico? Did he go more than once?
Diane – this is a loaded question! I think he went to Mexico out of frustration and need. I don’t think he was (intentionally) punishing Ennis (even though, ultimately, Ennis was hurt by it). I think Jack saw it as many men who solicit prostitutes ,,, purely a person to insert a hard dick and a way to get his nuts off. IMO, he went to Mexico once.
Jane - to have sex. No, he wasn't doing it to punish Ennis, he was going there to fill a need. I don't think he felt good about his trip(s) to Mexico, I think they satisfied him sexually but left him sad anyway. Yes, I think he went more than once in the 7 to 8 years since Ennis’ divorce.
Amanda- I think this is the first very explicit sign of Jack's desperation. And, on some - maybe even subconscious level - I think Jack is punishing Ennis a bit with this behavior. I think he realizes that he's punishing Ennis (or can use it to punish Ennis... spur his jealousy, etc.) in the argument when he doesn't back down over the Mexico topic. But, primarily, yes, I'm sure Jack thinks of it as pure physical need. Still, ultimately I think he finds it humiliating... That's how I interpret the look on his face in the alley in Mexico. I don't know if he went more than once... Maybe.
Mark-See the hollow look on his face when he is there?
Katherine -- He goes to fill a need but of course it really only fills part of a need. There might have been a bit of spite for Ennis involved the first time, after the post-divorce scene. But overall he finds the experience bleak and dehumanizing. Still, I think he went more than once, judging from his quick and vehement "Hell yes, I've been to Mexico!" as opposed to, "Well, yeah, once, a long timeago."
Ruthlessly – Punish Ennis – NO! Fulfill his sexual desires – Yes. More than once – I’ll bet he went to Mexico once or twice for every time he met up with Ennis.
Mikaela -- I think he started going there fairly regularly after the first time. Certainly he went more than once. He wasn't punishing Ennis - he was trying to fulfill the physical need that was so strongly connected with his emotional need and love for Ennis - neither of which Ennis was able or willing to fulfill. It seems clear it is quite an empty and hollow experience that wears on Jack's soul.
-- Did Jack's parents know he was gay?
Diane – Yes. But I don’t think it was anything he said. I think it was deduced. I also think his mother found the shirts.
Jane - yes, they both knew.
Amanda- yes.
yes Mark
Katherine -- Yes, deduced long ago.
Ruthlessly – Yes. I agree with Diane’s line.
Mikaela -- Yes.
-- Was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis?
Diane – No. However, I don’t think he had ever had sex with another man. Not that he didn’t desire it. I just don’t think it occurred.
Jane - no, he been with a man before, IMO.
Amanda- I go back and forth on this one. Maybe.
Mark-The book says he was
Katherine -- I lean toward no, and it was with a man.
Ruthlessly – The film doesn’t tell us one way or the other, but the film gives evidence that he was sexually experienced. And I believe it would have been with other boys. Experimenting, being used as a butt by some older teenage guy who couldn’t score with the girls, etc.
Mikaela -- No, and his prior experience was with another boy /man
Regarding love, does Jack:
-- Use that word when talking to Ennis?
Diane – Obviously, no. I don’t think either one was ever comfortable using the word “love”.
Jane - no, never.
Amanda- No, but he wants to.
Mark-no,he is so carefull what he says io Ennis
Katherine -- No, I think he is careful about Ennis and also feels he can express his love without using the word.
Ruthlessly – No.
Mikaela -- No. But he wants to. No way he didn't look at those shirts now and then and wish he could tell Ennis right out that he *loves* him.
-- Use that word when talking to himself?
Diane – I am surmising you are saying when he is talking to himself about Ennis? The answer is YES!!!
Jane - yes, always.
Amanda- Yes, I think he does use the word love. This question again, was lifted from the Ennis questionnaire.
Mark-yes
Katherine -- Probably.
Ruthlessly – Yes. He had “Jack Loves Ennis” tattooed on his ass on one of his trips to Mexico. Jack told Lureen it was the name of his favorite horsey.
Mikaela -- Yes.
-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
Diane – Yes
Jane - yes, Jack is a smart man, he knows Ennis is the love of his life.
Amanda- You bet.
Mark-yes
Katherine -- Of course.
Ruthlessly – Yes.
Mikaela -- Yes.
-- Know truly that Ennis loved him even though the word is unspoken in the movie/ book?
Diane – Yes. I think in his heart of hearts, he knew … despite all of the hardships they went through with each other.
Jane - I’m not sure if Jack really knew in his heart that Ennis loved him.
Amanda- It's very important to me to believe that he did. But, it's a little worry that I have and it bothers me. For the most part... I'd say yes. They both knew.
Mark-yes
Katherine -- Yes, he knew.
Ruthlessly – Yes… but I think he had his doubts from time to time. I think Ennis’ breakdown at the final lake scene gave Jack a definite answer to his questioning.
Mikaela -- However much it pains me to say this, I think from time to time in their relationship he may have felt a little doubt sneaking in, because Ennis was too bloody good at "standing it", keeping his hurt and longing inside; - and Jack must have felt it nearly impossible to fully relate to that kind of willpower in anyone who felt as strongly in love as he himself did. I do want to believe that Jack *always* knew. Certainly he had no doubt whatsoever at the reunion and for years after that..... and Ennis's breakdown at the lakeside took away his doubts for good and all. So at least he didn't die with any doubt about Ennis's love in his heart.
-- Wish that he and Ennis could be comfortable enough to use the word "love" freely?
Diane – Unsure. Knowing how each one was raised, I don’t know that either would have felt comfortable. So, I guess I am going to say “no.”
Jane - yes.
Amanda- Again, in the "sometimes I miss you so much..." speech... I think Jack initially is weighing whether it's safe to say "tell you what...long pause... you're the only one I love" (or something like that... since they're both in the middle of talking about their bogus affairs).
Mark-no, but there actions spoke it
Katherine -- I think he is confident they can get the point across without the word.
Ruthlessly – Yes. Duh! Of course he wished they could openly use the word “love.” He wanted them to live as openly as they could have dared. And between the two of them? Of course. No question at all. The question was not whether they “would have felt comfortable,” the question was “wish that he and Ennis could be comfortable.” Amanda, exactly – he KNOWS they’re not comfortable with that word, but he certainly wishes they could be. Mark – why do you think Jack did not want to be comfortable using the word “love?”
Mikaela -- Yes.
NB! (cont'd in next post)