Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Would Ennis Commit Suicide?
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 02, 2006, 05:04:24 pm ---I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the point here. In fact I'm not even seeing the connection between inward-directed anger over failure to protect Jack and homophobia.
Incidentally, just so I'm clear, I don't necessarily think Ennis is more homophobic at the end. I was only restating in my own way what I thought Diane was saying, and how and why that I see that it might be possible.
Sort of same goes for wondering if at some level Ennis could be "angry" at Jack for Jack's death. This isn't my field but, here again, I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind. Maybe that's a manifestation of survivor guilt? I don't know.
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 02, 2006, 10:18:50 pm ---I think I agree with everything you say :o ;) except the above sentence.
--- End quote ---
OMG!! We’re making progress! Let's amrk the day and time! :laugh: ;)
--- Quote ---But if you're saying "the thing" he hated as a result of Jack's death was homosexuality, I disagree. Not that he didn't still hate homosexuality to some degree, I'm sure. But I think he became more accepting of it in himself and Jack as the movie went on, and especially at the end.
--- End quote ---
I am going back to what Jeff said:
…. “Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsible for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."”
I like his explanation because he expresses what I believe to be true. I think this is the one point that we will not see eye to eye. Ennis understands and ultimately accepts the knowledge that he is gay. (i.e. he is no longer in denial). But that doesn’t mean he is at peace with that revelation.
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 02, 2006, 10:30:41 pm ---Sort of same goes for wondering if at some level Ennis could be "angry" at Jack for Jack's death. This isn't my field but, here again, I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind. Maybe that's a manifestation of survivor guilt? I don't know.
--- End quote ---
I looked up the definition of “survivor’s guilt.” It is:
A deep sense of guilt, combined often with feelings of numbness and loss of interest in life, felt by those who have survived some catastrophe. Survivors often feel that they did not do enough to save those who died or that they are unworthy relative to the perished.
I think that Ennis' reaction fits that definition. What it doesn't state is that the "survivor" would become angry at the deceased. On the contrary, the survivor would turn the anger towards him/herself. Example: "What if I would have done ... maybe Jack would be alive."
Katie77:
From what I have learnt and read about suicide, it is a very impulsive thing....
Many who commit suicide, have often bemoaned their unhappiness in life, and said that they "should put an end to it"....but most say this several times before they do it.....
Whatever has happend in ones life, is usually not the reason for the suicide, it is actually the reason for the state that their life is in now....if they are sad, it is because of something that has happened before, if they are lonely, it is because of something that has happened before....it may have been one thing or several things that have brought this suicidal person to this decision.
What makes the day they actually do it, different, from the days they talked about doing it, or feeling like doing it, is something that we may never know....but something, some form of finality, makes them finally pull the trigger on that day....
I dont believe it is a matter of toghness, strength or weakness, it is a final moment, caused by many things which brought them to this moment in time.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 02, 2006, 10:30:41 pm ---I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the point here. In fact I'm not even seeing the connection between inward-directed anger over failure to protect Jack and homophobia.
--- End quote ---
I thought it was you and/or Diane who were making a connection between inward-directed anger and homophobia.
As I understood your idea: Jack dies. Ennis is angry at Jack for being gay because that's what led to Jack's death. Ennis knows Ennis is also gay and so turns more anger on himself. Therefore Jack's death increases Ennis' internalized homophobia.
All I'm saying is if Ennis is angry at all at the end (which I think is doubtful in the first place), I would guess it is at himself rather than Jack. And that anger would focus not on anyone's homosexuality but on Ennis' failure to protect Jack from death. And that suggests he feels they had the sort of relationship in which protective responsibility would fall on him. And though that wouldn't necessarily require a romantic element, it is more likely to. Therefore Ennis' anger over Jack's death would indicate that, if anything, Ennis feels less homophobic.
Does that make sense?
Anyway, Jeff, you now say you don't necessarily agree with the initial premise, anyway. And it's possible I'm still misunderstanding Diane's point. If so, never mind.
--- Quote ---I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind.
--- End quote ---
That could be. I don't see any sign of it in Ennis' demeanor, but I would guess it does happen in "real life."
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 03, 2006, 12:40:17 am ---I thought it was you and/or Diane who were making a connection between inward-directed anger and homophobia.
As I understood your idea: Jack dies. Ennis is angry at Jack for being gay because that's what led to Jack's death. Ennis knows Ennis is also gay and so turns more anger on himself. Therefore Jack's death increases Ennis' internalized homophobia.
--- End quote ---
Well, yes, and sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to get at was not seeing a connection between anger over his failure to protect Jack and and a lessening of Ennis's own internalized homophobia.
--- Quote ---All I'm saying is if Ennis is angry at all at the end (which I think is doubtful in the first place), I would guess it is at himself rather than Jack. And that anger would focus not on anyone's homosexuality but on Ennis' failure to protect Jack from death. And that suggests he feels they had the sort of relationship in which protective responsibility would fall on him. And though that wouldn't necessarily require a romantic element, it is more likely to. Therefore Ennis' anger over Jack's death would indicate that, if anything, Ennis feels less homophobic.
Does that make sense?
--- End quote ---
Yes, logically, I think it does. I just don't buy the "is more likely to require a romantic element" premise. Therefore I don't buy the conclusion that as a result of Jack's death, Ennis feels less homophobic.
--- Quote ---Anyway, Jeff, you now say you don't necessarily agree with the initial premise, anyway. And it's possible I'm still misunderstanding Diane's point. If so, never mind.
--- End quote ---
No, I think you understand it. And I never intended to say that I did agree with the premise, only that I thought I understood Diane's point, in a visceral sort of way, and I see how it could be possible. But that's not the same thing as agreeing with it.
Then again, maybe I just want to believe that by the end of the film, Ennis is more accepting of himself. But as I write this I'm wondering whether the conclusion of the film gives us enough evidence to make a decision about that point.
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