Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Would Ennis Commit Suicide?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 03, 2006, 09:08:11 am ---Well, yes, and sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to get at was not seeing a connection between anger over his failure to protect Jack and and a lessening of Ennis's own internalized homophobia.
--- End quote ---
Not so much a lessening of his homophobia as a sign that his homophobia has lessened.
--- Quote ---I just don't buy the "is more likely to require a romantic element" premise. Therefore I don't buy the conclusion that as a result of Jack's death, Ennis feels less homophobic.
--- End quote ---
Really? Do you think of friends as feeling just as responsible for protecting each other -- even long distance -- as lovers do? You must have some really good friendships. To me, feeling guilty about not protecting someone you couldn't realistically have been expected to protect (because Jack was far away, Jack had free will, Ennis knew nothing of Jack's other involvement, etc.) implies a depth of emotion and a sense of obligation that are more likely to accompany romantic love than regular friendship.
So it seems to me that if Ennis IS feeling guilty, it's because he has recognized that their relationship was the sort that involved that strong a commitment -- again, in my view, a romantic relationship -- and accepted that. Ergo, he's feeling less homophobic.
The one other factor I can think of that might cause Ennis to feel responsibility for Jack's death is if he believes that if he were with Jack at the time, Jack wouldn't have died. But again, if he's recognizing he should have been with Jack, that also implies he feels less homophobia.
In any case, what I'm doing now is kind of like your explaining Diane's argument without sharing it. I don't see any evidence that Ennis IS angry, at either himself or Jack. We can extrapolate that he MIGHT be angry, because we think of that as happening in "real life." But I see no sign of it in the movie itself -- to me, he just seems sad.
--- Quote ---maybe I just want to believe that by the end of the film, Ennis is more accepting of himself. But as I write this I'm wondering whether the conclusion of the film gives us enough evidence to make a decision about that point.
--- End quote ---
I think it does. The film shows us that in the wake of Jack's death, Ennis is able to take steps he would have been afraid or unable to take before, such as visiting the Twists and calmly accepting their knowledge of his relationship with Jack.
And I think his agreeing to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding (and asking if Kurt loves her) shows he has recognized something about the primary importance of love, which implies he has recognized the value of his relationship with Jack, which implies he is less concerned about it having been homosexual, which implies he is more accepting of his own sexuality. That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.
moremojo:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 03, 2006, 10:25:09 am ---That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely, and this segues most elegantly into "Jack, I swear...", which suggests an oath or affirmation of some sort. Ennis is a changed person from the youth we first met at the film's beginning.
jpwagoneer1964:
I don't think that Ennis would have commited suicide. He had faced great loss throughout his life and was at least on his terms able to deal with it.
The last paragraph in the book"
there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it and if you can't fix it you have to stand it
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 03, 2006, 10:25:09 am ---So it seems to me that if Ennis IS feeling guilty, it's because he has recognized that their relationship was the sort that involved that strong a commitment -- again, in my view, a romantic relationship -- and accepted that. Ergo, he's feeling less homophobic.
The one other factor I can think of that might cause Ennis to feel responsibility for Jack's death is if he believes that if he were with Jack at the time, Jack wouldn't have died. But again, if he's recognizing he should have been with Jack, that also implies he feels less homophobia.
--- End quote ---
Ennis understands that he loves Jack and that it is a homosexual relationship. He also understands that he is gay. This is where we get stuck … just because Ennis acknowledges his sexual orientation does not mean he accepts it. In Ennis’ mind, Jack was killed because of his sexuality. Let me try to put it this way … I am envisioning this as Ennis’ thought process:
Jack is gay … Jack has a relationship with a man that was discovered by the townspeople…. Jack gets murdered because of his sexuality …. Ennis is gay … Ennis hates what caused Jack to die …. Ennis becomes more withdrawn, bitter and homophobic
I have a feeling that this is one of those things that we will have to agree to disagree.
--- Quote ---In any case, what I'm doing now is kind of like your explaining Diane's argument without sharing it. I don't see any evidence that Ennis IS angry, at either himself or Jack. We can extrapolate that he MIGHT be angry, because we think of that as happening in "real life." But I see no sign of it in the movie itself -- to me, he just seems sad.
--- End quote ---
When I talk about turning anger inward … it is often thought that depression is caused by anger directed at the self. That does not always hold water. However, in Ennis’ case I think it does. Ennis had a way of shutting off his feelings (until he reached a boiling point and exploded). Had Ennis been able to accept Jack’s love and the fact that he (Ennis) loved a man (before it was, ultimately too late) … his life and Jack’s life would have been completely different. Ennis realized how he squandered their 20 years together. Ultimately, Ennis hates himself for what he did and didn’t do, what he lost and what he’ll never have.
(I know there are several points in that paragraph that we don’t see eye to eye. But, that’s how I see it. )
--- Quote ---The film shows us that in the wake of Jack's death, Ennis is able to take steps he would have been afraid or unable to take before, such as visiting the Twists and calmly accepting their knowledge of his relationship with Jack.
And I think his agreeing to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding (and asking if Kurt loves her) shows he has recognized something about the primary importance of love, which implies he has recognized the value of his relationship with Jack, which implies he is less concerned about it having been homosexual, which implies he is more accepting of his own sexuality. That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.
--- End quote ---
I agree that Ennis makes some steps in the right direction by the end of the film. I also know that Ennis realizes his depth of his love for Jack. I don’t agree that he becomes less homophobic. I still believe that Ennis would withdrawal and become embittered.
--- Quote from: moremojo on August 03, 2006, 11:08:58 am ---Absolutely, and this segues most elegantly into "Jack, I swear...", which suggests an oath or affirmation of some sort. Ennis is a changed person from the youth we first met at the film's beginning.
--- End quote ---
Gosh, you and Katherine are very optimistic. I usually am, but I am not in this case, How much change is Ennis capable of making? I think very little. He is a different person than he was as at the beginning of the film Ennis has found the love of a man that he will never have again and he has faced the reality of his own sexual orientation. Other than that, he is still strapped with the baggage of his youth. Jack’s death only reinforced Ennis’ belief that Jack’s sexuality was the catalyst.
--- Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on August 03, 2006, 11:32:09 am ---I don't think that Ennis would have committed suicide. He had faced great loss throughout his life and was at least on his terms able to deal with it.
The last paragraph in the book"
there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it and if you can't fix it you have to stand it
--- End quote ---
Truth be told, I have never stated where I stand as to if Ennis would/ would not commit suicide. In reality, I don’t think Ennis would commit suicide. However, I do think Ennis would live a very lonely and embittered existence. His only moment of joy would be when he sees Jack in his dreams.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: dly64 on August 03, 2006, 02:45:10 pm ---His only moment of joy would be when he sees Jack in his dreams.
--- End quote ---
:'(
Aw, Diane, can't we at least hope for more of a relationship with Junior, maybe a grandkid or two, to give him some joy?
(P.S.: I like your explication in the preceding. ~J.)
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