Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

Would Ennis Commit Suicide?

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moremojo:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on September 26, 2006, 12:47:00 pm ---I don't think of suicide as "immoral," nor do I think loved ones should feel guilty. But (except in cases where the person is suffering from a terminal illness) they often do. Personally, I wouldn't commit suicide if only because I couldn't be that cruel to my children.
--- End quote ---
I think we're on the same page on much of this issue, except I don't see suicide as an act of cruelty, but rather an act of desperation. My mother attempted suicide once, and my sister felt very betrayed by her, but I did not. I recognized that my mother was in a very sick and desperate place in her life, and saw no other way out at the time. She was acting in a way that was consistent with her views and feelings at the moment, and of course I'm glad that she made it through that darkness and fought for more life, but I wouldn't have cursed her if she had succeeded.

I hope I don't sound like a calloused person. I don't see myself as calloused, but at the same time this issue goes to the very heart of questions of self-determination, which is one of the ideals I cherish most. We want our loved ones with us, and wish them happiness and health. At the same time, none of us can truly understand what it is to be another person; we can only infer another's experiences and feelings based on our own. Is it my place to insist that a person who feels that he is in hell stay there because his presence comforts or pleases me? And ultimately, I feel that if a person does not own her own life, then she owns nothing.

Did Jesus commit suicide by offering himself up to martyrdom? Does any martyr, in a sense, commit suicide? I think one can argue affirmatively for this. My paternal grandfather died of chronic alcoholism; did he commit a form of passive suicide? Again, I think one can submit that case. Are we as a species collectively committing suicide by willfully and consciously poisoning and destroying our natural resources, knowing full well we are diminishing, at the very least, the quality of life of those coming after us? I'm inclined to say yes.

I'm very interested to note that we tend to privilege happiness and joy as being illustrative of how life should be, or even how life "really is", treating times of pain and sorrow as aberrations that somehow need to be overcome or solved. I actually think that the universe is a neutral field onto which we project our own biases and hopes; it is not surprising that we strive for happiness, but the choice of seeing the world as a vale of tears is no less "true" or "accurate". It's all a matter of perspective.

The ultimate reality is that we all, whether our lives be long or short, happy, sad, or neutral, eventful or nondescript, meet the same end. Apart from the issue of causing or experiencing needless suffering to oneself or to others, does it really matter how one's death is compassed? For me personally, at this moment in time, the answer is no.

Respectfully,
Scott

Katie77:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on September 26, 2006, 12:47:00 pm ---I think the key phrase is "at the moment it happened." The trouble is, a moment later -- or a day later, a month later, a year later -- it might no longer have seemed like such a good option.

People who unsuccessfully attempt suicide -- people who jump off bridges but survive, for instance -- often later report having regretted the act immediately after taking it. Others are glad they weren't successful, once their circumstances change and/or their depression is treated. Young people in particular tend to perceive suicide as glamorous and romantic, or as an effective way to "get back" at those who have hurt them. As Diane said, many are unable to grasp the finality of death -- whatever we believe about the afterlife, death ends a life, which I think many suicidal people don't fully comprehend.


--- End quote ---

I agree with what you write here latjoreme...my son attempted suicide, when his wife left him and took their son from him.  In those first weeks, after she left him, he did not know who to turn to to help him, he was unaware of the judicial system in family court matters, and he was just heartbroken that his comfortable world had been destroyed.......

Thank God, his suicide attempt was unsucessful....he went on to have the courage to fight for constant contact with his son, he eventually met a new partner, he has another child, and he lives a very happy life....

After his suicide attempt, he underwent councelling, which opened up his mind to the demons that took over him, to make him contemplate taking his own life.  He then took on training courses, which then enabled him to be able to help others in the same situation.  He manned Life Line telephone help lines, and eventually, he had the opportunity to save another young man from suicide.

I remember him telling me that this young man had said to him, "there's got to be something better, after this life".....and my son said to him "well, maybe there is, and maybe there isnt.....but you can't be certain....at least you know what is in this life, you must have had some happiness here at some stage, if you work at it, you should be able to find that here again".....

The key phrase is "the moment it happens"....if someone is there to get them thru that "moment", there is probably less chance they will do it.

As far as feeling guilty about a family member committing suicide, as I have mentioned, my father committed suicide, and the feeling I had was, "maybe if i had been there with him, or we had spoken about more things, he may not have done it".

I am amazed at how this thread has turned into a discussion on suicide, not that i object, I think it is good that so many people have written in their opinions and experiences.....if it helps just one person, then it is all worthwhile.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: moremojo on September 26, 2006, 04:47:45 pm ---I think we're on the same page on much of this issue, except I don't see suicide as an act of cruelty, but rather an act of desperation.
--- End quote ---

Scott, I think we're on the same page on some issues, but not all. I don't see suicide as a deliberate act of cruelty, just an inadvertent one. My children would suffer if I died of cancer or were run over by a bus, but I would not be choosing that fate and their consequent suffering. Suicide -- even if the product of desperation -- is a choice. (And can contribute, rightly or not, to a sense of guilt among survivors.)


--- Quote ---I hope I don't sound like a calloused person.
--- End quote ---

You don't. On the contrary, you sound very empathetic and understanding. And the idea of self-determination, of owning one's own life, I can agree with. That's why I don't consider suicide immoral. That is, I think people have the right to do it, just as they have the right to make other mistakes. I just think usually it's a bad idea.


--- Quote --- Is it my place to insist that a person who feels that he is in hell stay there because his presence comforts or pleases me?
--- End quote ---

I think it's reasonable to urge a person who feels that he is in hell to try to get out of it a different way, because most likely it's possible.


--- Quote ---Did Jesus commit suicide by offering himself up to martyrdom? Does any martyr, in a sense, commit suicide?
--- End quote ---

Well, I think to some extent it's an apple-orange comparison. Martyrs choose their own deaths on behalf of a larger cause. Whether any particular cause is worth it is arguable, but presumably their action is at least expected to have positive consequences for others. Typical suicides, not committed on behalf of a cause, do not have positive consequences for others.


--- Quote ---My paternal grandfather died of chronic alcoholism; did he commit a form of passive suicide?
--- End quote ---

Well, again, I see some important differences. Someone who dies of chronic alcoholism (or smoking, or unhealthy eating) dies slowly, over many years. In effect, he makes the choice to die (and rarely is it a conscious and deliberate choice) every day. Theoretically, he could change his mind at any time, and act on it: quit drinking. A suicide makes the choice -- and it is conscious and deliberate-- in one irrevocable moment. And afterward, he can't change his mind.


--- Quote --- the choice of seeing the world as a vale of tears is no less "true" or "accurate". It's all a matter of perspective.
--- End quote ---

I agree that it's a matter of perspective. But even most pessimists have their good days and bad days. Rarely do people feel suicidal on a prolonged, permanent basis. If I feel like committing suicide today, but might not feel that way next week, or even next year, wouldn't I be wise to hold off?


--- Quote ---The ultimate reality is that we all, whether our lives be long or short, happy, sad, or neutral, eventful or nondescript, meet the same end. Apart from the issue of causing or experiencing needless suffering to oneself or to others, does it really matter how one's death is accomplished?
--- End quote ---

To me, the key word is not "how," but "when." It's true that ultimately we all meet the same end. But we don't all take the same amount of time getting there. I can't be philosophically detached enough to say that, all other things being equal, a long life is not preferable to a short life.

Katie, your post came in as I was writing this. Thank you for sharing the story of your son and your father. Those both must have been terrible experiences for you and your family, and thank god it worked out the way it did in your son's case. You have illustrated in heartwrenching reality the point I was trying to make in theory.

Momof2:
I do not necessarily think of suicide as cruel.  I DO NOT think the family members left behind should every feel guilty, but they do.  It is always the what ifs and whys.  I hope to God that I never become that desparate.  And to me people that committ or attempt to committ suicide are desparate.  Suicide is not the easy way out.  When my son was very little our next door neighbor attempted suicide.  My daughter was crazy about this sweet man and he always seemed happy to me.  My husband who is a fireman went on the call and it affected him tremendously.  I do not think he felt guilty, I think he did as did I wonder how could we have not known he was that desparate.  He was alive when my husband got there and he atleast had so comfort in trying to help him.  Not help him live but help him die with dignity.  Even though it was a self inflicted wound, he deserved to die with dignity.  His daughter told us a few days after he died how much she appreciated my husband helping her daddy.  My husband and I cleaned his house up and threw away everything so she would not have to deal with it.  That is why I would not kill myself.  I would hate to know that someone I loved had to clean up parts of me of find me dead.  I know dead is dead.  To me the difference is for your love ones to know it was not self inflicted. 

Marge_Innavera:

--- Quote from: Rayn on September 26, 2006, 11:15:58 am ---The western world doesn't have the last say on what happens after death.

There are billions of people who believe suicide isn't a permanent solution because death isn't a permanent event.   

Killing is a cause that creates very bad effects, so from a Buddhist or Hindu view, suicide just gets you greater suffering and more trouble in the next life and lives thereafter.
--- End quote ---

This is all true; however, it's also a fact that Buddhist and Hindu perspectives are not the only ones in that context. Reincarnation as an afterlife concept has quite a few variants.

A panentheist or even a "New Thought" perspective would say that it doesn't lead to greater suffering per se but that the person will probably have to go back and repeat quite a lot, sort of like being kept back a grade in school, as they didn't finish something they started.

My Religious Science teacher (RS is a "New Thought" teaching) used to say that he was opposed to suicide "because it's a waste of time." Many western perspectives on it, including many conventional religious ones, often have a punitive cast to them.

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