The World Beyond BetterMost > Women Today
Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: milomorris on June 06, 2009, 07:32:07 pm ---And why should any of this be free? Men have to buy condoms
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Not to speak for Mikaela, but by "free" she might have meant "unfettered," as opposed to "no cost."
Mikaela:
--- Quote from: Buffymon on June 06, 2009, 06:48:55 pm ---This is something that has striked me several times as well. To quote George Carlin on the subject: once you´re out of the womb, they couldn´t care less about you.
:-\
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Another inconsistency that I've never been able to wrap my mind around, is how American conservatives by and large are very anti-choice, citing the sanctity of life, but yet most of them are staunch supporters of capital punishment. Again it seems to me that it's the fact that the "life" is in a woman's womb - a woman who apparently shouldn't be allowed her own informed decisions - that makes it so singularly worthy of support and protection.
At least we Scandinavians don't have this conundrum to juggle - no-one here publicly advocates the introduction of capital punishment, as far as I know.
milomorris:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 06, 2009, 06:40:41 pm ---Haven't I seen the conservatives on this board and elsewhere moaning and groaning many a time over those living on welfare and how horrid it is to have to be paying taxes towards their welfare payments etc etc. Many single moms who have to live wholly or partly on welfare might have decided to get an abortion if that was a safe and easily accessible option to them, with no stigma involved. Yet here are those precious now-born lives and their moms, in need of support after they've actually been born and are real living human beings - and the enthusiasm for the value of their lives seem to decline all at once. While the ire and contempt directed at the "welfare moms" increase correspondingly. ???
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Yep. And I've been one of them. Let me make sure to be painfully accurate here: we don't diss welfare "moms," we diss welfare "queens." Women who make a lifestyle out of being on welfare. Its one thing to use public assistance as a support system when in need. That's what its there for. Hell, I ate more than my share of government cheese as a small child. But my mother got off her ass and went back to work when my brothers and I had all finally started school.
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 06, 2009, 06:40:41 pm ---Again, this proves to me that it's not about the life of the fetus (or resulting child) at all, but about repressing women and taking away from them both rights and responsibilities surrounding their own bodies, - and heaping guilt, shame and pain on them in the process. I am especially sorry to see women actually buying into this kind of ideology.
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I think it depends who you're asking. Some abortion opponents are more into the whole "woman's place/man's will" aspect. But there are most definitely people out there who think that it is an act of premeditated murder.
Mikaela:
--- Quote from: milomorris on June 06, 2009, 07:32:07 pm ---I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "denying women contraception." What kind of female contraceptives would have been available back in those days? The herbal preparations?
And why should any of this be free? Men have to buy condoms--unless they happen upon some subsidized non-profit that is handing them out. So women should have to pay for their contraceptive methods too. The cost of abortions should be split between the parents, IMO
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As to the first, I wasn't as much discussing the OP, but rather circumstances today. And today, in many countries and societies, women are denied access to and knowledge of contraception. (Women back in the day did have various herbal remedies that to some extent served as contraceptives. As far as I've read up on the medieval witch hunts, for instance, one of the reasons for the RCC's ire and venom directed at village wise women was that they helped other women with such herbs - and also with herbs inducing abortions. Clearly such women were witches. :( )
As to the "free", my apologies. I was translating the Norwegian "fri" in my mind - it means "free" as in living in freedom, being at complete liberty. I keep forgetting that "free" in English also means "gratis" - we have a separate word for that. Sometimes my non-English background seeps through. :P
I did indeed mean "unfettered", as Crayons indicated.
Mikaela:
--- Quote from: milomorris on June 06, 2009, 07:47:42 pm --- Let me make sure to be painfully accurate here: we don't diss welfare "moms," we diss welfare "queens." Women who make a lifestyle out of being on welfare.
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I guess this is going OT, so maybe I should refrain, but - how do you distinguish the two? At what point does it become a chosen lifestyle? I must admit that the dissing I've seen many times has seemed to be relatively all-inclusive, ie. everyone living on welfare seemed to be included in the disdain. I'm not at all saying this relates to any posts of yours, though.
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