Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Love vs. Lust (split off from Things that make you go 'hunh?')
Monika:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on August 25, 2009, 01:10:58 pm ---Well, as you've said, it doesn't apply to you, which is fine. I never said it applies to every single woman. And as for the second part of your sentence, I specifically said the opposite. Let's revisit what I said:
You might not be familiar with the Erica Jong reference, but "zipless fuck" essentially means sex without emotional attachment.
I never said no woman ever has sex without emotional attachment. Hell, I've done it myself. I said women TEND to place emotional attachments as a priority, and more so than men. To say that this is not true of you does not prove the generalization incorrect.
Not only do I disagree, but I can't imagine what would make you think this. It doesn't even make sense from an intuition standpoint -- why would sexuality and turn-ons be totally unrelated to gender? All kinds of behaviors are related to gender. Why would sexual attraction -- which is clearly more, well, related to gender than a lot of other things that are related to gender -- be the exception?
--- End quote ---
I don´t think sexuality is all tied up with gender, no. I believe biological factors are part of it, but many people I´ve talked to, can trace their "triggers" or "turn-ons" to events in their childhood. I also think it has to do with the climate in the society you´re brought up in and many other chance occurrences.
And no, sexuality isn´t an exception. I think most things that control is is a result of a mix between social factors and biological factors.
This is an accepted view in this scientific field as well, as I think you´re very well aware of.
Monika:
--- Quote from: louisev on August 25, 2009, 01:06:27 pm ---Buffy, I believe there are some significant cultural differences between the US and western Europe as regards social and dating behavior, and I have noted this many times living in Europe and talking with young people in their 20's and 30's, gay, straight, college students, and teens who are just starting out their social/love lives. My conclusion is that the US, in particular (even distinct from nearby Canada) is an extremely repressed culture overall, and follows and attempts to enforce much stricter sex roles, particularly with regard to women, and that affects their behavior. Not Taliban level, but keep in mind that the Puritan Separatists did found the first settlements of Europeans in North America and they represented the most extreme religious conservativism of Europe from the 17th century. A mere 90 years ago women were not allowed to vote in the US whatsoever - it's a very different place!
and yes, that's a great big generalization but it is provably reflected in our indecency standards on television programs, film ratings, etc. etc. etc.
--- End quote ---
Interesting post, thanks L.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Buffymon on August 25, 2009, 01:47:22 pm --- I don´t think sexuality is all tied up with gender, no. I believe biological factors are part of it, but many people I´ve talked to, can trace their "triggers" or "turn-ons" to events in their childhood. I also think it has to do with the climate in the society you´re brought up in and many other chance occurrences.
And no, sexuality isn´t an exception. I think most things that control is is a result of a mix between social factors and biological factors.
This is an accepted view in this scientific field as well, as I think you´re very well aware of.
--- End quote ---
There's nothing here that I disagree with, but I don't see how it refutes anything I said.
Biological factors influence sexual behavior.
Events in childhood influence sexual behavior.
Society influences sexual behavior.
Chance occurrences influence sexual behavior.
A mix of social factors and biological factors control most types of behavior.
Where did I disagree with any of the above? If you feel that your statements contradict what I said in previous posts, I think it's possible you didn't understand my previous posts.
Of course experiences, whether in events in childhood or chance occurrences, influence individual attitudes and desires. How could they not? Sometimes those childhood events and chance occurrences also have something to do with the person's gender, sometimes not (and of course the way people react to childhood events or chance occurrences -- whether they are affected in such a way that these experiences become turnons or are bad experiences or aren't memorable or sexual one way or another -- differ from one person to another, sometimes due to genetic factors, also sometimes in relationship to gender and sometimes not). As for biological and social factors, they also influence attitudes and desires, and the also are sometimes connected with gender and sometimes not.
Monika:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on August 25, 2009, 02:06:27 pm ---There's nothing here that I disagree with, but I don't see how it refutes anything I said.
Biological factors influence sexual behavior.
Events in childhood influence sexual behavior.
Society influences sexual behavior.
Chance occurrences influence sexual behavior.
A mix of social factors and biological factors control most types of behavior.
Where did I disagree with any of the above? If you feel that your statements contradict what I said in previous posts, I think it's possible you didn't understand my previous posts.
Of course experiences, whether in events in childhood or chance occurrences, influence individual attitudes and desires. How could they not? Sometimes those childhood events and chance occurrences also have something to do with the person's gender, sometimes not (and of course the way people react to childhood events or chance occurrences -- whether they are affected in such a way that these experiences become turnons or are bad experiences or aren't memorable or sexual one way or another -- differ from one person to another, sometimes due to genetic factors, also sometimes in relationship to gender and sometimes not). As for biological and social factors, they also influence attitudes and desires, and the also are sometimes connected with gender and sometimes not.
--- End quote ---
*lol* I hardly remember where this started either...but let´s try to backtrack...
I think what I disagreed with from the beginning was the generalization that women (more than men) needs an emotional attachment to her sexpartner. And that women in general aren´t turned on by pictures.
and I also expressed doubts concerning generalizations based on soley gender when it came to these specific questions.
That was at least what I was trying to get across. :)
Wouldn´t it be ironic if we 2000 posts later would come to the conclusion that we really don´t disagree on anything at all ;D
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Buffymon on August 25, 2009, 02:18:37 pm --- *lol* I hardly remember where this started either...but let´s try to backtrack...
I think what I disagreed with from the beginning was the generalization that women (more than men) needs an emotional attachment to her sexpartner. And that women in general aren´t turned on by pictures.
and I also expressed doubts concerning generalizations based on soley gender when it came to these specific questions.
That was at least what I was trying to get across. :)
Wouldn´t it be ironic if we 2000 posts later would come to the conclusion that we really don´t disagree on anything at all ;D
--- End quote ---
I don't think we're very far apart, in general overall.
I do think there are statements you can make regarding sexuality -- and lots of other things -- that are more true of women, and statements you can make that are more true of men. But of course that doesn't mean they apply equally to ALL women, or all men, or that gender is the ONLY factor that influences sexuality and other behavior.
I'm not absolutely sure by the picture-turn-on issue. I haven't delved into the scientific research on this. I'm mostly expressing my own opinion, and guessing based on the fact that there are lots and lots of pictures of naked women and naked men marketed to men, and relatively few pictures of naked men or naked women marketed to women. Is it because pornographers are deliberately trying to deprive women of something they would willingly buy? Maybe, but pornographers like most business people are usually happy to provide whatever they think will sell.
Meanwhile, women tend to read more romances than men do, which unlike most pictures of naked people involve an emotional element. That, and my own observations and, yes, some scientific research I've read, suggests that women are more inclined to look for an emotional connection. Again, at the risk of being repetitive but in order to be absolutely clear, this does NOT mean that no women ever has -- or wants -- sex without emotional ties, or that men don't care about emotional ties.
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