Love vs. Lust (split off from Things that make you go 'hunh?')

[serious crayons]

Well, Jeff and Lee, I'm offended by both of your remarks about my comment.  I was truly concerned that Jeff's tone had changed suddenly and was worried about him.  I certainly do know men, and I take offense at his comment that I don't.  I was also rather appalled at the language being used, and I'm certainly not a prude; I just didn't find it appropriate on this particular forum.  Whatever, maybe I shouldn't be here at all if this is the way people are going to talk about each other these days.  Last time I checked, there was a rule about saying cruel things about people.  Guess that's changed.

Was a good topic, Laura.  Sorry it went astray.

I'll have to say, Mandy, that neither Jeff's nor Lee's comments seemed out of line to me. Jeff's initial post seemed to be commenting on a generalized aspect of male behavior -- not true for every man all the time, of course, but I didn't gather he was saying that.

In any case, as a bystander I didn't take their comments to be cruel or intended to cause offense. 

[Front-Ranger]

In any case, as a bystander I didn't take their comments to be cruel or intended to cause offense. 

No, I did not want to offend ennione and I apologize if I've inadvertently done so. My comments came from two sources: 1) my direct experiences as a friend of gay men for the last several years and 2) recent readings from books on sexuality including The Female Brain and The Time Falling Bodies Come to Light. I am also a friend of Jeff's, recently spent a week with him in Wyoming and was trying to shed a little light on his comments since he is on a cross-country train trip right now and won't be able to speak further with us about this for quite a while.

[SFEnnisSF]

And of course Jack, though quite sad, coped with their job's sudden end better than Ennis, because he hadn't been denying the core truth of their relationship to himself.

Wow!  Never thought of it like that!

[SFEnnisSF]

In the context of Brokeback Mountain, Ennis has mistaken the sex with Jack for animalistic rutting.  It's part of his denial.  ("This is just a one-shot thing" etc.)  In truth, their relationship is much bigger and more emotionally substantial than that, for both parties.  Ennis only realizes this later.

Again, brilliant way to put it.  It's why he's in the alley feeling his "guts torn out" and he can't explain why...

[Jeff Wrangler]

That Jeff Wrangler...he went off on his train Odyssey and left us with a cliffhanger!! But I'll bet when he checks in again he'll say he's not bitter about ennithing, and he didn't just break up with ennione, he's just 'splaining for you how things are with men...or perhaps I should say, the male animal. Capable of the deepest love and able to explore a universe of love, lust and sensuality, somtimes for the man (and for the woman too, I dare say) it's just fucking.

Really.

Thanks, FRiend Lee. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'll have to say, Mandy, that neither Jeff's nor Lee's comments seemed out of line to me. Jeff's initial post seemed to be commenting on a generalized aspect of male behavior -- not true for every man all the time, of course, but I didn't gather he was saying that.

In any case, as a bystander I didn't take their comments to be cruel or intended to cause offense. 

That would be about right, Katherine. Thank you. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Kerry and Jeff, thanks so much for sharing your personal experiences with such openness and honesty.

You're welcome.   

First Hand?      And I'll bet the editors of that little magazine never could've imagined what would be available on the internet someday! 

Oy, if any of us could have imagined that! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, Jeff and Lee, I'm offended by both of your remarks about my comment.  I was truly concerned that Jeff's tone had changed suddenly and was worried about him.  I certainly do know men, and I take offense at his comment that I don't.  I was also rather appalled at the language being used, and I'm certainly not a prude; I just didn't find it appropriate on this particular forum.  Whatever, maybe I shouldn't be here at all if this is the way people are going to talk about each other these days.  Last time I checked, there was a rule about saying cruel things about people.  Guess that's changed.

Hunh? 

[Monika]

You know, I've always had a problem with that line in the SS.  How can you make love with a man all summer — with his strong limbs, firm hairy chest, whiskers and man-smell — and still stay in some kind of denial about doing so? 

"Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises..."

Then:
"Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."

I mean, wtf?

Very interesting, Laura.

I´ve interpreted that to mean that Ennis was admitting to himself that he had sex with a man. After all, sex can be just that...sex. But an embrace..especially a sexless one as the dozy embrace implies something else...tenderness...feelings. I don´t think Ennis was ready to admitt that he was holding a man in an embrace that wasn´t a prelude to sex.

[Monika]

animal. Capable of the deepest love and able to explore a universe of love, lust and sensuality, somtimes for the man (and for the woman too, I dare say) it's just fucking.

I don´t think there´s a big difference at all when it comes to men and women in that area.
The whole thing about women always craving an emotional bond before engaging in sex..*cough*
Believe me, sometimes women, too, just want to screw.

Women and men aren´t really all that different.