Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
The true reason
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on August 14, 2006, 02:23:39 pm --- And for women who may have read gay literature, or watched other gay-themed movies, or seen gay porn, and not been turned on... then the question becomes: why this movie?
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I've never seen (erotic) gay literature, movies or porn, so I don't know how I'd react, but I've never felt especially drawn to them. I guess I just felt that, by definition, I would feel excluded. So I didn't expect to find BBM a turn on. I learned something new about myself, and I've sought an explanation. I don't think, for me, it's specifically about gay men having sex. I don't think I have any more interest in seeing other gay couples together than I did before (though I've learned not to make assumptions, even about myself!).
So why this movie? Maybe because the actors are so hot. Maybe because I know them to be straight in "real life." Maybe because the scenes are so well done, so beautifully filmed and acted. Maybe because their passion is so convincing and intense. Maybe because it's so emotionally engaging. Probably some combination of all those.
I did figure out one thing for sure. I had always assumed that when I found a straight love scene sexy, it was because I was identifying with the woman. I assumed I would not find love scenes in BBM sexy because there'd be no one for me to identify with. What I discovered is, it's not a matter of identifying with one of the participants by gender. It's about finding at least one of the participants attractive; if I do, I can put myself in place of the other participant regardless of gender. (I assume that's what many gay people do when watching straight love stories?) And in BBM, you get two attractive participants for the price of one!
I've always rolled my eyes at the idea of men fantasizing about watching two women get it on. Now I feel kind of bad about that. But I do think that's often a different kind of thing. I think -- and this is completely wild speculation; I've never talked to any man about this, only seen it on TV -- that many men with this fantasy ultimately want the women to be doing it for the man's benefit. In other words, it's not about a lesbian couple, per se, it's about two women putting on a show for the purpose of arousing the guy (I think). That's probably not always be the case, but I believe that's how, for instance, Girls Gone Wild works.
If there are any straight men reading this who can be enlightening, please feel free to jump in!
silkncense:
--- Quote ---They may have had a deep and abiding love for one another, but, yes, over time, love does mellow, phsyically and emotionaly, and changes dramatically, and I can't see them togather for very long.
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So, then no relationship would ever succeed?? Their love & passion was clearly built on a foundation of friendship. If the obstacle that prevented Ennis from accepting a full-time relationship was removed, you still don't see success?
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on August 14, 2006, 02:23:39 pm ---Umm, as the person who brought up the term "emotional erotica"... my tongue was very firmly in my cheek. Yes, Chris, I was definitely thinking of the people (1980's vintage feminists, in particular) who distinguished between "pornography" and "erotica" on the basis of artistic merit. So Meghan Daum joked about "emotional pornography" (I'm pretty sure the term was a joke, even if the point she was making wasn't); I joked about it being "art," and therefore "erotica."
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Ok Mel & Katherine, yes I get the tongue in the cheek, for the most part so is mine although I do have a problem with political correctness, especially when people actually buy into it when really it's little more than verbal diarrhoea! ;)
--- Quote ---But the point that Daum was making... I think that she was trying to get at the question of "why is this movie a turn-on for women?" Because, beyond all the movie's considerable artistic acheivements, ummm... it's really hot. The appeal is not entirely intellectual. And for women who may have read gay literature, or watched other gay-themed movies, or seen gay porn, and not been turned on... then the question becomes: why this movie?
I don't think Daum's explanation is perfect, and there are a lot of points where I would argue with her. But I've heard similar discussions about the "slash" phenomenon, and about what exactly about it appeals to women. Some of the arguments were similar to Daum's. (Others focused on comparing the phenomenon to straight male fantasies about lesbians, and maybe there's a point there, too. Though the comparison makes me feel really guilty, because I find Howard Stern's (etc) lesbian fantasies to be exploitative, and it bothers me to think that I'm being exploitative in my own way by being fascinated with BBM.)
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These are reasonable questions, but I really think they are misplaced. You see, simply asking "why women enjoy BBM when its central characters are gay men" more than implies a sexual (maybe even pornographic) motive for watching it. And the comparison with the [straight] males' preoccupation with lesbians, which *is* exploitative by the way, only emphasises my point. Basically I see these comparisons as cheapening everything about BBM, and I even go so far to say that proponents of this argument have no class at all. (Yes my tongue is still in my cheek).
Ok, here's what I really think. I think women's enjoyment of BBM is the same as mine (a gay man's). It's not about the sex or the sexuality of the characters. It's about the genuine and truthful depiction of the emotions. Some of these emotions are beautiful and endearing while others are not, and that's good because it's the unflinching honesty that makes it possible to believe in them. If we become aroused it's because we are responding to these emotions, not because we are being titillated by a simulation of sex. To be honest, it's not even a particularly good simulation of sex in TS1, but it gets the job done as far as the story telling is concerned. But the emotional power of BBM has no equal IMO. I don't think there has ever been a film (or ever will be again) that has emotions with the impact of BBM. Maybe that's because the need we have for them at this point in history is equally matched? Those of us so deeply affected by BBM are also the ones that long for a world where all love, gay and straight, is celebrated equally and the fear of sexual oppression is just a historical curiosity?
To be continued...
Momof2:
Aussie Chris I agree with you 100%.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on August 15, 2006, 09:09:28 am ---You see, simply asking "why women enjoy BBM when its central characters are gay men" more than implies a sexual (maybe even pornographic) motive for watching it.
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In the LA Times piece, sex didn't come up at all. It was all about emotion. She didn't even refer to the love scenes specifically. Nor did she deny that other characteristics -- powerful story, etc. -- that are far more important. But those characteristics would presumably appeal to anybody who saw it. She simply discussed one of the movie's qualities -- men expressing deep emotion -- that women specifically might like. (Chris, if you're curious about the piece that triggered all this controversy, the link is in a post by me a page or two back.)
But maybe it's worth mentioning the elephant in the room: that, let's face it, if this board is any measure the fans of this movie are not exactly demographically representative, in terms of sexual orientation, of the population as a whole. I believe about half the members are women, some gay, and then there are lots of gay men. Do you notice any group conspicuously underrepresented? I'm not saying there are NO straight men; I know there are some. But from what I've observed (and I could be wrong; not everybody discusses their sexuality, of course) their numbers sure don't seem to match their proportion of the population.
That's not all about sex, of course. Many straight men are uncomfortable watching the sex scenes (i.e., homophobic). Gay men have many personal reasons to love the movie more than straight men might. But still. Not all straight men are homophobic, I would hope, so why is their number so miniscule? I bet the same couldn't be said about, say, Casablanca. Or even Titanic. Why would they be so immune to a powerful emotional story?
Anyway, I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing that sexual attraction is the primary reason for loving the movie. But does it really cheapen it to include it among the many reasons?
--- Quote ---If we become aroused it's because we are responding to these emotions, not because we are being titillated by a simulation of sex. To be honest, it's not even a particularly good simulation of sex in TS1, but it gets the job done
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This is getting so uncomfortably literal that it IS sounding a bit pornographic. Let's just put it this way: part of the function of love stories is to let viewers vicariously experience a great romantic love. And sex is part of the picture. That's why most love stories contain scenes of sex or at least kissing. It doesn't have to be out-and-out sex -- in the case of BBM, many people like or even prefer TS2 and the reunion scene. And the response is not entirely sexual; it's all mixed up with emotions. If the whole movie were nothing but variations on TS1 I bet a lot of BetterMost members wouldn't be here (if there even was a BetterMost). But part of its appeal is erotic. I don't think you have to deny that in order to respect the movie, any more than you have to deny sexual attraction in order to respect a person you love.
I'm kind of grasping for ways to describe this, Chris, because your post makes me wonder if you and I perceive the response to sex scenes differently. I'm not talking about people necessarily responding to it, um ... the way they would to pornography. It's much more about emotions than that.
--- Quote --- But the emotional power of BBM has no equal IMO. I don't think there has ever been a film (or ever will be again) that has emotions with the impact of BBM.
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I'd be surprised if anyone on this board would disagree with you here, Chris. :)
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