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Here we go again - after the revolution - women pushed back into the kitchen

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Marge_Innavera:

--- Quote from: delalluvia on March 18, 2011, 02:41:09 pm ---Anyway, this isn't just an Islamic or Egyptian thing, this happened in the US and in Britain as well, but about one century ago and as occasional stories in the news even today will tell you here in the US, when women join - or attempt to join - previously all-male organizations, whether the fire departments, police or military, coal mining or what have you, they run into this same sort of intimidation 'gauntlet' they're forced to run by men with teeny brains and apparently even smaller balls.
--- End quote ---

In a less extreme form, that happened in the decade after WWII.  Although in the US, the genie was out of the bottle by that time.

After the American Revolution, according to History.com, (among other sources):


--- Quote ---In a letter dated March 31, 1776, Abigail Adams writes to her husband, John Adams, urging him and the other members of the Continental Congress not to forget about the nation's women when fighting for America's independence from Great Britain.

The future First Lady wrote in part, "I long to hear that you have declared an independency. And, by the way, in the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation."
--- End quote ---

Of course, Abigail Adams' plea was ignored. It was a century and a half later before women got the right to vote; and feminist-bashing is still fashionable.  You can look back just three years to the 2008 POTUS election for some whoppers of examples.  The spirit is far from gone in the West.

pnwDUDE:

--- Quote from: delalluvia on March 20, 2011, 02:27:07 pm ---Crayon understands my points exactly Milo, so short of reinterating, I too will address this

Being a woman, I've found that the 'boys club' rules work fine...for boys.  Not so much for women.  This is why women in the workplace have been working slowly and steadily to change things.  Some men were not interested in inviting women into their 'club' and so women started working around them and so now, there are a myriad of ways to develop teamwork and a sense of belonging in a work environment, if one is even necessary rather than just the 'boy's club'.  It was broke, Milo, but you had to not be a man to see it.

And no, I've never had to 'compete' with my bosses or co-workers either.  I was there to do a job.  The only person I was out to impress with my work, was the boss and the clients.  I wasn't there to show up my boss or other co-workers.  

I know in the theatrical and music world you are continually 'trying out' and competing against someone else for a part in a production.  I understand that also happens in sports.  This does not carry over to the business world.

--- End quote ---

I agree here. I believe, in the context of post-revolution Egypt, religion does plays a significant role in the status of women in most of the Middle East (should that be capitalized?). That aside, I see a positive trend regarding women in the past 30 years I have been involved in predominately male-oriented jobs/institutions. I can't speak for the upper crust of corporate America since it is a world of 'at the pleasure of the board', the 'good old boy system', 'you pat my back, I'll pat yours', and tied to an earnings report. I go by statistics, not experience. Del is correct as those statistics show that while women are gaining ground, there isn't equality. Based on my experience, this doesn't carry over to 'blue collar' and mainstream professional services.

For many years, police work was a man-only world (Just watch one of those wonderful, post-WWII, 'film noir' classics). Cops had to be tough and strong. Brute often ruled over intelligence and women were relegated to positions such as matron, juvenile officer or 'get the coffee doll' secretary. Since we don't beat confessions out of people or break up bar-room brawls with our Irish brawn anymore, no part of police work can be considered a closed 'boys club'. In most large American cities this has been the case since I entered the field in the mid 80's. As for woman needing to run the 'gauntlet' in that field, I haven't seen anything like that. Sure, there is the social aspect that attracts mostly guys. The late night poker parties where guys sit around drinking beer, smoking cigars, farting and generally acting stupid isn't necessarily closed to 'the gals'. It doesn't have to be, they want no part of it and have their own girls-only treks to the beach anyway. Same thing about taking a coffee break. With a few exceptions  ;), women cops would prefer not to spend their coffee breaks at places, the likes of the 'Purple Kitten'. I had women partners throughout my career. When I retired, one of my ex partners was the police chief.

I have been involved in the fire service for many years, up to the rank of Fire Commissioner. A bit of a late start, but now, the same experiences. While in extreme emergency situations, brawn and strength does play a factor, so long as women can pass the test, they are  accepted by their male counterparts into what was considered an exclusive 'boys club'.

After retiring from police and fire services at the stroke of 50 (with a fat pension thanks to collective bargaining), my second life has taken me into the throws of the great American port. The iconic 'men only need apply' world ala 'On The Waterfront', has been a huge surprise.  Rather it be the 'ILWU' loading and unloading cargo ships. Train crews 'riding the iron' in a subzero snow storm, 'Linesmen' 'Lineworkers' working in tandem to 'tie up' a 700' cargo ship containing 3,000 Subaru's, or walking atop a grain conveyor 150' high, it is men and lots of women working in complete harmony. Some train crews are made of entirely women. And the first woman river pilot of the great Columbia is being trained as we speak. A previously 'closed club' if there ever was one. One which pays men an average of $380,000 a year. To start.

The younger of these men and women don't have an gender issue. Most of the older peers that viewed these venue's as 'men only' have retired. With all the tools, equipment, Union's, OSHA and state workplace guidelines, strength-required superiority isn't a factor. Sorry Milo, but I don't see anywhere that women need to prove themselves to their male counterparts in order to be part of the team. If they can do the job, that is what counts. And for every woman that can't do the job or fit into the team, there are an equal number of men.

Brad

serious crayons:
Thanks for sharing that, Brad. That was really interesting, and nice to see a firsthand perspective.  :)

Re the upper crust of corporate America, I would bet that's changing, too. If anyone here has witnessed that group firsthand, I would love to hear your thoughts.

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