The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
Mary Renault Book Discussion
Front-Ranger:
I am planning on picking up The Last of the Wine on my way home from Work today and starting it tonite.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: Kerry on December 30, 2006, 11:21:55 pm ---I guess if we'd been a fly on the wall, way back there in Persia, we may very well have overheard Hephaestion say to Alexander, "I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks once or twice a year." :o LOL
Kerry ;)
--- End quote ---
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: Kerry on December 30, 2006, 09:28:59 pm ---When we look back at the ancient world, it is very important to remember that it is an era that existed long before our present Christian era, with all its moral hang-ups and prudery. Alexander, Hephaestion and Bagoas were men of their times, not ours. As for Bagoas being a "boy," it is my understanding that he was a "youth" when he met Alexander, not a child.
--- End quote ---
Someone's already pointed this out, but Bagoas was 16 at the time of the book, a teenager, but still considered a boy. In the book, Bagoas himself uses the term for lover and beloved. The Beloved being the 'boy'. When he first sees Hephaestion and Alexander interact, he's surprised Alexander is already someone's 'boy'.
--- Quote ---I can find no evidence that Alexander had any relationships with "boys." In this, he was proudly Macedonian, not Athenian!
--- End quote ---
Well, so was Phillip and he was famous for his relationships with boys. I forgot where I read about Alexander and his favorite page. The writer was speaking of Alexander's boy comparing unfavorably with Hephaestion. It may come from a legitimate source or from pseudo-Callisthenes, I don't remember. I'll have to paw through every source material I have on Alexander to find it again. I went through a huge Alexander phase when the movie came out, and I read a bunch of books on him and even went so far as to order this professor's dissertation on Hephaestion.
--- Quote ---Alexander was the King. He did it "because he could." It's that simple! Hephaestion would have known and understood this, and loved Alexander no less because of it.
--- End quote ---
Ah, it's good to be king. Certainly Hephaestion understood it and probably didn't love Alexander any less for it, but that doesn't mean he liked it.
Kerry:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on January 02, 2007, 08:32:37 pm ---Someone's already pointed this out, but Bagoas was 16 at the time of the book, a teenager, but still considered a boy. In the book, Bagoas himself uses the term for lover and beloved. The Beloved being the 'boy'. When he first sees Hephaestion and Alexander interact, he's surprised Alexander is already someone's 'boy'.
--- End quote ---
As you say, "Bagoas was 16 at the time of the book." Nuff said.
Renault's Bagoas is wrong when he presumes that Alexander was Hepaestion's boy. Alexander was never anyone's boy, except maybe Olympias! (LOL). I will write more on this when I've had an opportunity to consult the sources (I'm presently at work).
Kerry:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on January 02, 2007, 08:32:37 pm ---Well, so was Phillip and he was famous for his relationships with boys. I forgot where I read about Alexander and his favorite page. The writer was speaking of Alexander's boy comparing unfavorably with Hephaestion. It may come from a legitimate source or from pseudo-Callisthenes, I don't remember. I'll have to paw through every source material I have on Alexander to find it again. I went through a huge Alexander phase when the movie came out, and I read a bunch of books on him and even went so far as to order this professor's dissertation on Hephaestion.
--- End quote ---
Alexander and Philip did not enjoy a loving father/son relationship. They didn't have a lot in common, from what I can see.
Let's remember that the pages you refer to were not the little girly boys with page-boy haircuts of fairytale fame. These pages were tough young louts, hardened by years on campaign. They were not delicate in any way. And they were young men - not boys.
With respect, steer clear of Alexander according to Oliver Stone (LOL). Though, having said that, I did enjoy the movie - but strictly as a confection.
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