BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: serious crayons on June 06, 2006, 04:23:18 pm

Title: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 06, 2006, 04:23:18 pm
You know how some people have said they think Ennis says "I love you" when he finds the shirts? Well, I have always been so skeptical about this that I've never even bothered to look for it.

But today I was skipping around my rental DVD, watching key scenes maybe for one the last time until fall. And I had the volume up higher than usual and noticed I kept hearing little muttered things that I hadn't heard in the past. So when I got to the shirt scene I decided to listen -- and watch -- really closely.

And now I think I agree.

I looked for it exactly the way I've tried to figure out "sorry/s'alright" -- watching for whether Ennis' lips move -- and in that scene they don't, which is why I moved to the "no sorry" camp. But in the closet scene his lips do move -- only you can hardly see it because the shirts are in the way. It's right after he takes a deep breath, trying to smell Jack's scent on the shirts. You can only see about a quarter inch of his mouth. But he moves as it if saying three words -- those three particular ones, in fact. And under the music, you can just barely hear something that sounds like three words being muttered.

I rewound and watched it about four more times with the volume cranked to 60 and my eyes about three inches away from the screen, and each time I became more and more convinced.

What do you all think?

Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: ednbarby on June 06, 2006, 04:32:52 pm
Tell you what.  Truth is...  I think I've heard it, too.  He definitely seems to be breathing some words of some kind into the shirts - whether it's just a tremendously deep sigh that sounds like "I love you" or not I'm not certain.  But I've seen and heard (with the volume cranked on my headphones) the very point of which you speak and concur that it is entirely possible.

That said, I don't know that he so much needs to say those actual words there to have it have the impact it does as far as I'm concerned.  The way he holds/caresses them and breathes in so deeply so as to try to smell Jack on the blue shirt just slays me every time, with or without confirmation of his actually saying that.  The words are almost superfluous to me, though I do understand the gravity of he of all people finally saying them, really, I do.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: gattaca on June 06, 2006, 04:37:56 pm
My curiosity is piqued. I've heard/read this on other threads, but I'm gonna have to wait until my DVD is received in the mail. ;)
Having said that: if Ennis really did say "I love you", would we feel differently towards Enins?
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: JennyC on June 06, 2006, 05:07:19 pm
There are a fews things that people said they noticed in the movie, but I never have.  I don't think I will hear the "I love you" even if I turn the volume to 60, but that does not really matter to me as I know he felt that way.

Having said that: if Ennis really did say "I love you", would we feel differently towards Enins?

Not to me.  I know he loves Jack and he wanted to say it out loud, but couldn't.  That’s part of the reason that I am drawn to Ennis’s character, his internal struggle with his feeling and never being able to fully express those repressed emotions.  That pain and struggle is not unique to Ennis, I think many of us have experienced the same some point in our lives. I agree that it would be so special if Ennis would ever say "I love you" to Jack, but that will be at a different time and in a different story.  Ennis is who he is.  Besides, Jack knows that Ennis loves him.  I wish Ennis has the courage; just as I wish myself have the courage to do things that I am afraid to.  But for him not doing that does not change how I feel for him. 
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 06, 2006, 05:57:02 pm
Well, I'm not saying it casts Ennis or the movie or that scene into some whole new light. As Barb says, everything about that scene is already plenty devastating. And I'm not saying this indicates that Ennis suddenly understands for the first time that he loves Jack -- I'm one of those who firmly believes that Ennis knew that all along, even if he didn't use that word. And I believe Jack knew it. And I believe Ennis expresses his love in many ways, most of them nonverbal.

But I also think that, given that Ennis was not able to say "I love you" while Jack was still alive, the fact that he's now finally saying it (assuming he actually is) to an empty shirt adds an extra touch of poignancy, tragedy and romanticism to an already heartbreaking scene. I know that what must be going through his mind is how much he longs to say it to Jack himself, but knows it's too late. (It's possible he even would have said it to Jack in November -- when Cassie used the word in the bus station, I believe Ennis suddenly realized how accurately it described his own feelings.) All of which make me feel just a tiny bit sadder for him than I already did.

And on top of that I'm amazed that -- after 13 (I think) viewings, long after I've been able to recite each line with the actors and anticipate every glance and facial expression and cough before it happens -- it's still possible to discover something new about the movie.

I would say my belief that he says it has gone from 0% to maybe 75%. (I think it's slightly easier to see, BTW, than it is to hear. But neither is very easy.)
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: nic on June 06, 2006, 06:30:52 pm
This is interesting, if one believes he does say it on finding the shirts.  Because to many, certainly to many casual viewers, the natural response to the line "Jack, I swear..." is "I love you" so if he said it earlier it takes away some of the importance from that final line.  However, for many non-casual viewers (ie us!) the "I swear.." line has multiple meanings other than but also including "I love you".

I'm constantly surprised at how much importance those three magic words are ascribed in relation to the BBM discussion & their absence from the short story & novel.  It is yet another mark of the skill of those involved that they didn't give in & have an obvious "I love you" put in, leaving it open for eternal discussion.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: ednbarby on June 06, 2006, 07:31:58 pm
if Ennis really did say "I love you", would we feel differently towards Enins?

As Katherine said so well, I'd feel just a tiny bit sadder for him (if that's possible).  But Jack and I always knew he loved him, even if he didn't acknowledge it to himself.  Jack wouldn't have stood it all for so long if he didn't.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 06, 2006, 09:01:55 pm
I see it, every time.  Whether it's actually there or not, no one seems to know, but for me it's a definite maybe  :P.

'discovering' those three words didn't change a thing either. Ennis was still Ennis.  Just as mute as ever, perhaps more so given he was only able to utter the words when there was no one to hear them. 

just for the record, I'm also firmly in the "I'm sorry" camp, so very possibly I'm a non-existent-line-imaginer  ;D.

w

Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 06, 2006, 09:02:26 pm
This movie just amazes me for the amount of ambiguous dialogue and lines lost amidst breathing and music, etc.  My feelings for Ennis certainly don't change if he really did say it.  It just serves to confirm what most of us believe about him and his feelings towards Jack.  I have to say that I'm glad it's soooo imperceptible as to remain a subject of debate.  It's almost like it's there if you want it to be there... or not... as the case may be.  I think having it not be there adds a bit of weight to the "Jack I swear..." moment.  I think we and Jack's ghost are locked in suspense at the end hoping and hoping to hear Ennis say "I love you."  Well, if he's already said it to the shirts... at least Jack's ghost would have already heard it.
 ::) :'(

I'm still in the camp of hearing the "I'm sorry" out of Ennis during the second tent scene.  I truly do hear it (I always heard it in the theatres and I hear it on my DVD too).  But, I truly want to hear it... so maybe my judgment is skewed.


So, onto another bit of whispered or impreceptible dialogue... Actually, I'm just curious, before I bring it up for real... who here knows about the first tent scene controversy regarding something Jack may or may not have said?  This is essentially a bit of dialogue that may (or may not) be lost amidst his moans...
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: JennyC on June 06, 2006, 09:06:38 pm
who here knows about the first tent scene controversy regarding something Jack may or may not have said?  This is essentially a bit of dialogue that may (or may not) be lost amidst his moans...

Which part?  The "come on" part, that I don't hear (I start to think I have some hearing problems) but see it in the subtitle, or the part that, rumor had it, Jack said "Ennis"?
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 06, 2006, 09:16:21 pm
So, onto another bit of whispered or impreceptible dialogue... Actually, I'm just curious, before I bring it up for real... who here knows about the first tent scene controversy regarding something Jack may or may not have said?  This is essentially a bit of dialogue that may (or may not) be lost amidst his moans...

I know the piece of dialogue you're referring to  :P :laugh:.  I've heard it just once, and it had me doing this  :o :o.  Not heard it since because I forget to look for it - too busy trying to get my heartrate at a sensible level what with Jake's pounding etc.  Incidentally, on the single occassion I did hear it, it 'seemed' really obvious (but then, Ennis's "I'm sorry" seems really obvious to me, so ...).  It also seemed very ....... ah ......... fitting, given the circumstances.  A steamy touch, if it's actually there!

w
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 06, 2006, 09:19:36 pm
Yup, I think wolf knows what I'm talking about...   ;) (by the way, we need a "blushing" emoticon for this one...)

I'll leave y'all in suspense until a few more people chime in.
 :-X
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: RouxB on June 06, 2006, 10:04:35 pm
You can't leave us hangin' like that!
I was also in the "heard it" category-not that anyone believed me for a second  :P

It being there in no way changes, for me, my feeling for Ennis as I KNOW for a certainty ( ;D ) that he loved Jack, he knew he loved Jack and Jack knew it too. Nor does it change the import of "Jack, I swear". I think it adds a dimension to it and gives it more emphasis. I never interpreted "I swear" to mean just "I love you". For me it means that and a million other things including "if only..."

 O0
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: nakymaton on June 06, 2006, 10:14:24 pm
I get too carried away by things like the score or the sound of the wind to hear anything.

And it wouldn't change how I feel about Ennis. It would, however, change my opinion of Ang Lee. (He wouldn't be quite the fetishizer of repression that I consider him now. Not that it's a bad thing, given that I have a repression fetish myself.)
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 06, 2006, 11:28:18 pm
Well, I'm confused. We've all said we swear it wouldn't change our feelings for Ennis. But to be honest, I don't quite get the question in the first place. If it did change our feelings, what would it change about them?

As for the "I swear," I'm OK with that either way. I think that line means much more than "I love you." Even if it meant just exactly that, it wouldn't wreck it for me to know that Ennis had also almost imperceptibly muttered it into the shirts.

Ang Lee may not be a Fetishizer of Repression (good phrase, Mel -- it sounds like the title of a song, or a rock band!) but he certainly is a fetishizer of near-imperceptibility. How many mutterings, smiles, "hey c'meres," "sorry/s'alrights," held hands, etc. are there in this movie that you just barely make out -- or not -- because they're 1) too quiet 2) drowned out by music 3) at the very edge of the screen 4) in the dark 5) said under someone's breath 6) cut off after a 16th of a second when the scene changes?

Now Amanda and Wolf, spill.  ??? ??? ??? You can PM it if you feel too shy to post it. Or will I have to spend another afternoon with my volume cranked up to 60 and my face pressed against the TV screen?
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 06, 2006, 11:40:43 pm
OK....  here goes. 

So, there are people in the world who believe that you can hear Jack say "f*** me" twice in the midst of the action in tent scene #1.  I think I know what they're talking about (there seems to be at least one moment where this could be a possibility)... but I truly believe that it's just Jack moaning and people projecting their own ideas onto the situation.    Actually, this is a case where I think it's very important for the encounter to happen in intense silence (other than breathing, etc.).  So, I don't want to believe that he actually says this. 

But, there it is... the first tent scene controversy... do with it what you will.

 :o :-\
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 06, 2006, 11:47:11 pm
latjoreme,

I love the phrase 'fetishizer of repression' too  :laugh:.  Though I think our cultural aversion to repression and imperceptibility is what prompts our qualification of his Very Chinese approach to storytelling.  Off topic I know, but one of the things that tickles me about my husband's professed disapproval of the film is the fact it's in conflict with his own Very Chinese appreciation of a Very Chinese film  :laugh: :laugh:.  

As for the tantalizingly inaccessible piece of dialogue, I'm working on a tame version for your extrapolation  ;).  Gimme a minute.

Ok, how about this.  Jack, at the height of ... proceedings ... gasps two words.  They're a request, you might say.  Possibly the most commonly gasped or grunted or moaned two words in the history dirty talk.   There ya go, that aught do it  :P.

w
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: JennyC on June 06, 2006, 11:53:02 pm
Jack, at the height of ... proceedings ... gasps two words.  They're a request, you might say.  Possibly the most commonly gasped or grunted or moaned two words in the history dirty talk.   There ya go, that aught do it  :P.

I quote wolf’s post only because the words did not appear there  :P.

I swear people hear all different kind of things in that scene.  Someone also said Jack said “Ennis” in the mist of his moans.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 06, 2006, 11:55:18 pm
OK....  here goes. 

So, there are people in the world who believe that you can hear Jack say "f*** me" twice in the midst of the action in tent scene #1.  I think I know what they're talking about (there seems to be at least one moment where this could be a possibility)... but I truly believe that it's just Jack moaning and people projecting their own ideas onto the situation.    Actually, this is a case where I think it's very important for the encounter to happen in intense silence (other than breathing, etc.).  So, I don't want to believe that he actually says this.  
But, there it is... the first tent scene controversy... do with it what you will.

 :o :-\

couldn't agree more!  as stated, I've heard it just once, and while it was a bit confronting, a bit steamy, and a bit kinda freaky-cool, I'm glad I haven't heard it at any other time.  as you say, it's one scene that needs to be played out silently.  a complete absence of verbal communication.  the intensity and urgency would be lost if either demonstrated the presence of mind to formulate a sentence, even a two word one!  lordy me, now I have to go and watch that scene again just to erase the naughty words  :P :P.

w
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 06, 2006, 11:59:23 pm
Heya wolf,

Nice post.  Welcome to BetterMost by the way.  Pour yourself some coffee and help yourself to some cherry cake.
 :)
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 08:09:41 am
Well, now that I know what to listen for, I will have to spend another afternoon with the volume cranked up to 60, my face pressed against the screen, and my finger on the rewind button. This will be me:

 ??? ;) ;D :-* :) :D :( :o :o :o  :-X ??? ??? ::) :-\  :-* :-* ::):laugh: ??? ;D ;) 8)

I guess I don't know how I'd feel about it, if it was there. But on the face of things, it seems less credible than the "I love you," and I always found that one extremely improbable. But then ...



Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on June 07, 2006, 12:04:36 pm
When I watched the DVD again last night, as the moment with the shirts approached, I had my nose against the screen like a three-year-old and the volume cranked. I have to report that all I could hear was breathing.

On the other hand, after nearly twenty years of hanging out in gay bars where the music is entirely too loud, the hearing ain't what it used to be.  ;D

I would say, though, that Ennis saying "I love you" out loud as he embraces the shirts strikes me as out of character. This, after all, is the guy who doesn't or can't complete the "Jack, I swear" thought out loud even in the privacy of his own trailer.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 12:37:45 pm
Well, I should emphasize that it's not so much a matter of hearing it -- and I don't actually hear those words, I just think I hear something being muttered, or maybe breathed. (Straight bars can be too loud, too!  ;D)

But it's the visuals that I find more convincing. Keep in mind that you can only see a corner of his mouth, so it's not like you can read his lips and see them actually forming the words. But what happens is: his face is immobile, then you see his mouth move in a way that he could be saying three words, then his face returns to immobility.

I realize this doesn't sound like a whole lot to go on. Frankly, if no one had mentioned it in the first place I would never have noticed or interpreted it that way. This is much harder to detect than "sorry/s'alright" or "hey, c'mere."

I appreciate you checking it out, though, Jeff! I think I will put it on again today, volume cranked, nose against the screen, one hand on rewind and the other holding a notebook. If I can find any more clues or elaborate on this description I will let you know.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on June 07, 2006, 02:08:51 pm
I should have specified that I did see lip movement in the closet with the shirts, I just didn't hear anything intelligible.

OT, but last night was also the first time I caught a glimpse of Ennis's wedding ring in the motel, but only because I was deliberately watching for it rather than focussing on Ennis and Jack's faces. (God, those faces. ...)
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 02:34:22 pm
I think I will put it on again today, volume cranked, nose against the screen, one hand on rewind and the other holding a notebook. If I can find any more clues or elaborate on this description I will let you know.

(Quoting myself again.  ::))

OK, I just watched it about eight times in the aforementioned manner, and my certainty has gone from 75% to maybe 94%.

He's holding the shirts to his face, lifts up the sleeve and glances again at the blood, breathes, and then ... When I said you could see a quarter inch of his mouth, I exaggerated. You can see maybe 1/16th inch of it. Just the tiniest corner. Yet you can see his lips move in what appear to be those words. As for hearing, if you've got your volume cranked up as high as it will go, as I did, you can easily hear him breathe when he's smelling the shirts, and then, far more softly than that breath, you hear him say something like "- ---- ---." That is, he sort of exhales in a specifically defined way, as if breathing three words that to me sound like "I love you." If you try yourself saying it as quietly as you can while still actually saying it, you'll get the idea.

And then, immediately after that, cut to Mrs. Twist in the kitchen.

*Sigh.* I sure would like to see the famous extended version of that scene.

If anyone else finds the place I'm talking about on their DVD and has another interpretation of this, I'd like to hear it. But his mouth definitely moves and he definitely seems to be saying something. And wouldn't that be the expected thing to say?

And Jeff, to me it wouldn't be out of character. After all, it's so quiet it it's practically a thought. (But then, you and I have previously debated to what extent he even thinks it.) As for "I swear," IMO he doesn't complete the sentence because his meaning is too amorphous, not because it's too personal or emotional.

Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: nic on June 07, 2006, 03:55:00 pm
snip...And then, immediately after that, cut to Mrs. Twist in the kitchen.

*Sigh.* I sure would like to see the famous extended version of that scene.

 :o Oooh oooh - I have not yet heard about an extended version of that scene!!  You mean the shirts in the closet scene you were just talking about?  I have not yet developed a sufficient degree of "emotional immunity" that would allow me to watch the DVD over & over again so I haven't checked out this particular scene in detail yet.  I have a whole list of things to look out for over the entire movie - I need to set aside a whole day!  But tell me about the extended scene briefly - does anything else happen??

Please say Jack appears & says it was all a big mix up & they ride off into the sunset together...
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 07, 2006, 04:01:11 pm
Hello Everyone,

I am new to BetterMost, and, obviously, am a BBM-aholic!!!  I truly adore this movie and Jack & Ennis....

I have seen the film nearly 50 times so far and want to share with you what I know of what is said in the second tent scene and also in Jack's boyhood room/closet when Ennis finds the shirts.

I have watched intently about the "Come 'ere/I'm Sorry/It's'awright" and the "Oh Jack/I Love You" and I can tell you this:

In the second tent scene:

Ennis approaches the tent and goes in, but says absolutely nothing. He is a wreck. He is very nervous and jumpy. When he kneels down in front of Jack, he has his hat in his hand in front of him, but does nervously and quickly start to lean into Jack to kiss him, but Jack kind of stops him by taking the hat away and putting it off to the side. This disarms Ennis' approach. Then, Jack puts his hand to Ennis' face and ever so slightly pulls Ennis toward him. Ennis is now really nervous, so Jack says quietly, "Come 'ere." Because Ennis is so nervous, Jack now says "C'mon" because he can't get Ennis to actually lock lips right away.  Anyway, they kiss, but as soon as they unlock lips, Jack feels a pang of guilt for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him, so Jack closes his eyes, hangs his head and says "I'm sorry." Then Jack looks up at Ennis and says "It's'awright" twice, then "Lie Back; C'mon".

In the closet scene at the end:

Ennis finds the shirts, can't believe it, holds the hanger in his left hand and with his right hand tenderly touches the pocket and says "Oh Jack". Then, he brings the shirts close to him, caressing them, hugging them, and tries to breathe in deeply the smell of Jack, (though, from the book, we know there really was no smell left). As he is breathing out, he says "I Love You."

Hope this helps....
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 04:26:42 pm
Please say Jack appears & says it was all a big mix up & they ride off into the sunset together...

Sorry, nic, it's not quite that good. Reportedly the extended scene was shown at the Independent Spirit awards, and I guess it lasts much longer and Ennis cries harder. I've never heard of anyone who has actually seen it except rtprod. Here's a link to a long-ago thread in which it's discussed on and off throughout:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1016.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1016.0)

Hold the phone! What a coincidence. I just glanced through the Chez Tremblay board and found this brief discussion, from just a few days ago:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2324.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2324.0)

So it's still mysterious. If anyone knows of its whereabouts, please post it immediately and prominently and alert everybody.

I am new to BetterMost, and, obviously, am a BBM-aholic!!!  I truly adore this movie and Jack & Ennis....

I have seen the film nearly 50 times so far and want to share with you what I know of what is said in the second tent scene and also in Jack's boyhood room/closet when Ennis finds the shirts.

Daphne, welcome! And what a way to start! Either you have much better eyes and ears than I do, or it really helps to see it 50 times (I'm only at about 13 or 14, myself). You may be new to BetterMost, but obviously not new to the movie. I am so glad you're here.

Jack says "Lie back, c'mon" in TS2?! That's news to me. Also, yours is the best explanation for "I'm sorry" we've got -- the only explanation, in fact!  :D

And in the closet scene, Ennis also says "Oh Jack"?!?  :o  :-*  :'(

Looks like I am destined to spend another afternoon glued to the TV screen, volume cranked.  :-\
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Mikaela on June 07, 2006, 04:37:52 pm
Quote
Jack says "Lie back, c'mon" in TS2?! That's news to me.

According to the captions on the UK version of the BBM DVD, he says; I'm sorry. It's all right. It's all right. Lie back, come on.

I've never managed to hear those last few words, and I'm more than uncertain about the "I'm sorry" - so  I did a serious double-take when I saw those closed captions, figuring that there was danger of another "what did he say" gale coming.   ;) The subtitling in the local cinemas where I live didn't have the "lie back" either - but they *did* have the "I'm sorry", though. Seems noone, not even semi-official sources, can agree about the dialogue in that scene.....

Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 07, 2006, 04:38:26 pm
Thanks for the welcome!!  I am happy to be here...

Yes, after that many times viewing this film, I think I finally was able to see, hear and distinguish what was being said by all the body language and, of course, by cranking my TV up as loud as I could....

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 04:59:11 pm
I changed the title of the thread, so from now on, it's about anything that you think you can see or hear but can barely make out. Including, but certainly not limited to:


And whatever else anyone thinks of ...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: nic on June 07, 2006, 05:07:49 pm
How about the subliminal messages that Ang Lee put in to flash up every few seconds: "you will love & adore my film", "you will become utterly obsessed by this story", "you will fall uncontrollably in love with both Jack & Ennis", etc etc  :D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 05:11:10 pm
How about the subliminal messages that Ang Lee put in to flash up every few seconds: "you will love & adore my film", "you will become utterly obsessed by this story", "you will fall uncontrollably in love with both Jack & Ennis", etc etc  :D

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Oh and, "even after many, many viewings you will keep feeling compelled to return"
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 07, 2006, 05:32:27 pm
What was the wedding ring in the motel scene I should watch for?

Also, when you list "hand holdin' ", are you referring to TS1, or what I affectionately refer to as "the reach around"?

I previously asked for input on my interpretation of this "reach around" on another website board, but nobody could conclusively answer it.

I wanted to know, politely, if not naively, if Ennis was **ahem** "holding" Jack's _ _ _ _ _ or if he was trying to get his balance or if he and Jack were just trying to hold each other somehow....

Does anyone here know?

Just curious and not trying to offend.....

Thanks!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: gattaca on June 07, 2006, 05:34:39 pm
Hi Daphne and welcome -

Well, if Ennis was doing the reach around with Jack, it certainly would have been off-camera!

(Your interpretation is correct, BTW).

 ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 07, 2006, 07:28:03 pm
I changed the title of the thread, so from now on, it's about anything that you think you can see or hear but can barely make out. Including, but certainly not limited to:

  • "I love you"
  • "Sorry/s'alright"
  • the wedding ring
  • the hand holdin
  • "Oh Jack"
  • "Hey, c'mere" (tent scene version or stairwell version)
  • "F*** me"

LOL.  :laugh: :)

I thought of another situation to add to the list...  does anyone have further thoughts about what Ennis may or may not whisper to Jack following the reunion kiss?

Here are the possibilities I've heard people debate-
"little darlin" (we wish...)
"later"
"c'mere" (I think there's a possibility of a "c'mere" both before and after the reunion kiss).

I'm firmly in the camp of people who can hear Ennis say "c'mere" prior to the kiss.  I have no real opinion as to what he says in the whisper following the nuzzle.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: vkm91941 on June 07, 2006, 07:38:42 pm
When I watched the DVD again last night, as the moment with the shirts approached, I had my nose against the screen like a three-year-old and the volume cranked. I have to report that all I could hear was breathing.

On the other hand, after nearly twenty years of hanging out in gay bars where the music is entirely too loud, the hearing ain't what it used to be.  ;D

I would say, though, that Ennis saying "I love you" out loud as he embraces the shirts strikes me as out of character. This, after all, is the guy who doesn't or can't complete the "Jack, I swear" thought out loud even in the privacy of his own trailer.

E*X*A*C*T*L*Y...ditto what Jeff said.  Much as I personally would love to hear an I love you...I believe it's just wishful thinking on the part of those who hear it.  It is just not in this mans character to utter those three little words aloud in connect to Jack.  What we see in the 'Jack I Swear' scene is Ennis's realization for the FIRST time that he loved and was loved by Jack.

And sorry to disappoint everyone but we have heard from bilingual folks from all over the world about how screwed up the sub titles and the screen captions for the hearing impaired are.  I watched the whole thing with the ENGLISH  screen captions on and they a DEAD WRONG in more than one place.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 07, 2006, 07:55:29 pm
I'm firmly in the camp of people who can hear Ennis say "c'mere" prior to the kiss.  I have no real opinion as to what he says in the whisper following the nuzzle.

He definitely says "hey, c'mere" after the nuzzle. Someone once posted a link to an audio-only version of this moment, in which it's even more audible. I think I have heard the pre-kiss "c'mere" as well.

IMO, "hey, c'mere" is what the filmmakers deliberately substituted for "little darlin," fearing that would just be too un-Movie-Ennis-like. Ennis also says "hey, c'mere" to Alma at least a couple of times. That's not quite as sweet as a phrase he says to his daughters and horses, but it draws some sort of connection, I guess.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on June 07, 2006, 09:54:23 pm
What was the wedding ring in the motel scene I should watch for?

If you watch very carefully at the bottom of the frame in the motel scene, you can catch a glimpse of Ennis's wedding ring.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: nakymaton on June 07, 2006, 11:02:26 pm
How about the subliminal messages that Ang Lee put in to flash up every few seconds: "you will love & adore my film", "you will become utterly obsessed by this story", "you will fall uncontrollably in love with both Jack & Ennis", etc etc  :D

Why did they leave those messages off the Academy screeners, huh? ;)

I am deaf (and for some odd reason I can not type an apostraphe tonight --  computer keeps kicking me into "find" -- so I am going to sound really pompous), so all I have heard is the Cmere before the stairwell kiss.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 07, 2006, 11:48:45 pm
Heya wolf,

Nice post.  Welcome to BetterMost by the way.  Pour yourself some coffee and help yourself to some cherry cake.
 :)

thanks you  :).  but ya got whiskey or somethin?

W
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 08, 2006, 12:03:58 am
thanks you  :).  but ya got whiskey or somethin?

W

Sure we have whiskey. Tell ya what, we've got some beans too... if prefer those to cake just now.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: bbm_stitchbuffyfan on June 08, 2006, 12:11:10 am
Quote
This movie just amazes me for the amount of ambiguous dialogue and lines lost amidst breathing and music, etc.  My feelings for Ennis certainly don't change if he really did say it.  It just serves to confirm what most of us believe about him and his feelings towards Jack.  I have to say that I'm glad it's soooo imperceptible as to remain a subject of debate.  It's almost like it's there if you want it to be there... or not... as the case may be.  I think having it not be there adds a bit of weight to the "Jack I swear..." moment.  I think we and Jack's ghost are locked in suspense at the end hoping and hoping to hear Ennis say "I love you."  Well, if he's already said it to the shirts... at least Jack's ghost would have already heard it.

I agree with all of this^.

I had never imagined Ennis saying "I love you" into the shirts and I have always, always loved him. I am really excited to watch for this the next time I see this movie!
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 08, 2006, 12:17:40 am
Sure we have whiskey. Tell ya what, we've got some beans too... if prefer those to cake just now.


I'm gonna eat them beans while I watch the Twist House scene again right here on my computer.  First time I've watched it thusly and being so close really helps with the details!   Wonder if I'll hear the magic words  :).

w
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: serious crayons on June 08, 2006, 12:54:10 am
(Wonder if I'll hear the magic words  :).

Weird. At the very moment I read the line above, I heard someone on the TV blaring in the next room, which my husband has fallen asleep in front of, say "I love you." I hope that's a good omen.

I hereby offer a huge reward to anyone else (in addition to Daphne and Barb) who backs me up on this. To be paid in a generous sum of smiley icons. Wolf, please crank your volume up as high as it goes and sit right in front of the screen and be prepared to notice the slightest little facial movement or sound. I can't emphasize enough its subtlety.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Penthesilea on June 08, 2006, 03:04:12 am
What was the wedding ring in the motel scene I should watch for?

Also, when you list "hand holdin' ", are you referring to TS1, or what I affectionately refer to as "the reach around"?

I previously asked for input on my interpretation of this "reach around" on another website board, but nobody could conclusively answer it.

I wanted to know, politely, if not naively, if Ennis was **ahem** "holding" Jack's _ _ _ _ _ or if he was trying to get his balance or if he and Jack were just trying to hold each other somehow....

Does anyone here know?

Just curious and not trying to offend.....

Thanks!

Welcome to BetterMost, Daphne.
We had a 6 pages long thread about the hand holding/reaching around in TS1. It's here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=615.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=615.0)

Enjoy! :)

Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Jane on June 08, 2006, 07:23:22 am
OK....  here goes. 

So, there are people in the world who believe that you can hear Jack say "f*** me" twice in the midst of the action in tent scene #1.  I think I know what they're talking about (there seems to be at least one moment where this could be a possibility)... but I truly believe that it's just Jack moaning and people projecting their own ideas onto the situation.    Actually, this is a case where I think it's very important for the encounter to happen in intense silence (other than breathing, etc.).  So, I don't want to believe that he actually says this. 

But, there it is... the first tent scene controversy... do with it what you will.

 :o :-\




I,ve literally only found this thread today.  I watched "that scene" twice with the sound way way up and he DOES say it, twice!!!! :o :o  Jake Gyllenhaal you little devil you. ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: belbbmfan on June 08, 2006, 11:50:28 am
And sorry to disappoint everyone but we have heard from bilingual folks from all over the world about how screwed up the sub titles and the screen captions for the hearing impaired are.  I watched the whole thing with the ENGLISH  screen captions on and they a DEAD WRONG in more than one place.

Seems strange to me that while so many attention was given to detail during the making of the film, other aspects of it were kind of neglected. Like the subtitles (and yes the dutch/french version I saw had Ennis saying 'I'm sorry') but also the original trailer. There were scenes and lines (Jack:"guess if were gonna be working together we might start drinking together") in the trailer that never appeared in the film.
Ah well, maybe it was all done on purpose, so our brokeback would never end...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 08, 2006, 12:06:11 pm
I have found several errors as well with the English subtitles.

Sometimes, what is said is wrong (like when Ennis is leaving the Twist farm at the end, and he is outside holding the shirts in the bag - the subtitles have him saying, "Thank you, M'am," but what he really says is "Thank you for this."  That's a HUGE difference to me.

Other times, who says what is wrong.  Like in TS2, the subtitles make it look like it is Ennis who says "I'm sorry," which leads us to believe that Ennis is possibly sorry for having taken off in the morning without so much as a goodbye to poor Jack, when, really, the "I'm Sorry" line is uttered by Jack because, as I interpret it, he is sorry for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him.  (Jack was always afraid to scare poor Ennis off and was always careful about what he said and didn't say or how he approached him, etc.)...

As for the conflicting reports of what is being heard and said, I have not yet heard the "F _ _ _  _ _ " by Jack in TS1, but will look for it.  I HAVE heard the "I Love You" in the shirt scene at the end.  I don't necessarily want to hear it because I believe we all know exactly how Jack and Ennis feel about each other and why each of them has never really said it to the other over the years, but I do see and hear Ennis breathe that "I Love You" into the shirts as he exhales.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 08, 2006, 12:26:44 pm
I HAVE heard the "I Love You" in the shirt scene at the end.  I don't necessarily want to hear it because I believe we all know exactly how Jack and Ennis feel about each other and why each of them has never really said it to the other over the years, but I do see and hear Ennis breathe that "I Love You" into the shirts as he exhales.

Thank you for that, Daphne! And here is your reward:

:D :D :D :D :) :-* :-* :) :o :-* :) :) :) ;D ;) :laugh: :D 8) :D :D :D

I actually love the "I love you." I, too, believe that Jack and Ennis know how each feels about the other. But I also suspect that Ennis hasn't previously applied that actual word to his feelings. (My theory -- which I already mentioned above, but what the heck, I'll repeat it -- is that Cassie's use of the word in the bus station provokes an epiphany that gets him to start thinking in those terms.)

So in that respect, it's kind of a happy thing. On the other hand, the fact that he's saying it too late, to an empty shirt, is unutterably said. Either way, for me it ratchets up the already overwhelming emotions of the moment a few notches.

:'( :-* :'( :'( :-* :'( :-*
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 08, 2006, 12:32:49 pm
Thanks Latjoreme and thank you for that insight on Cassie's use of falling in love....  I had never connected it.  I guess I'm crying too hard watching Ennis all alone with that little piece of pie... 

Breaks my heart but good!!!!!!

 :'(
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 08, 2006, 03:24:05 pm
OK, another session of skipping around the DVD in my now habitual cranked-volume, glued-to-screen, constantly rewinding posture. Here are my impressions:

"F me" -- I see where you're talking about, and he could be saying that, or any number of other things, or just breathing.

"Sorry/s'alright"
-- I really like Daphne's interpretation of Jack saying "sorry." It seems to fit what's happening onscreen perfectly.

Holding hands -- Undoubtedly. Hands, not any other parts. For the record, I think it's Ennis who grabs Jack's hand.

"C'mere" -- Yes, said by Jack in TS2, and by Ennis at the reunion before and after the kiss.

Wedding ring -- barely a glimpse, but only because I've got a letterbox DVD.

"Oh, Jack
" -- I saw the part where he tenderly touches the pocket, Daphne, but couldn't make out actual words.

"I love you" -- Absolutely. I become more sure of it with every viewing.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 08, 2006, 03:41:52 pm
As to the "Oh Jack" - that one is definitely a tough one.  Sometimes I can hear it as plain as day, and other times, it's a tentative maybe.  But I do believe he says it.  I'm almost positive.  It's just barely audible and definitely not on the subtitles.

As to the "hand holding" - if you look closely at Ennis' right hand at almost the very end of TS1, you will see that his hand is "holding" onto something - how do I put this .... - cylindrical (for lack of a better word which I can't seem to come up with right now).  What I mean to say is that he does not appear to be holding Jack's hand.  In fact, Jack's right hand is holding Ennis' right forearm, so, technically, they couldn't be holding hands, right?

My DVD remote control has a "zoom" button on it, and if I zoom in just right, I think I can see clearly that they are not holding hands.  My problem is that this scene, at least on my DVD, is very dark.

Anyway, (and as Jack says.... "Fer what it's worth"), I'm glad you heard the "I Love You".

 ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: ednbarby on June 08, 2006, 03:46:06 pm
I have no problem with Ennis actually breathing/saying it into the shirts (in fact I quite like the idea, and not because I need for him to in an idiot American sort of way but because I just think it's lovely), since my interpretation of "I swear" is, well, self-evident.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: opinionista on June 08, 2006, 04:02:07 pm
Quote
Holding hands -- Undoubtedly. Hands, not any other parts. For the record, I think it's Ennis who grabs Jack's hand.

I thought Jack pulls Ennis hand. The way I remember it, he pulls it hard as if wanting more.

I don't know about the "I love you". I don't think he says it or even whispers it but then again I could've missed it.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 08, 2006, 04:05:18 pm
his hand is "holding" onto something - how do I put this .... - cylindrical

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

How about ... phallic shaped?

So you're saying Ennis holds onto this cylinder, as Jack holds Ennis' arm? I have seen the hand/arm thing, but never the cylinder. Well, I just finally returned my DVD to Blockbuster, but next time I rent it (or maybe even buy it) I will check that more closely. Maybe on a new TV with a zoom feature.

And I'd better get a set of headphones, too, in search of the "Oh Jack." I would love to hear that.

not because I need for him to in an idiot American sort of way

Barb, if by idiot American way you mean the idea that he "should" say it. in order to make some kind of unequivocal official declaration, I don't need that, either. Not at all.

I love it because it is just about the sweetest, saddest thing in the world.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 08, 2006, 04:10:19 pm
Yes, I didn't know if I could really say "phallic" on line here....  But that's exactly what I wanted to say....

 ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: ednbarby on June 08, 2006, 04:36:52 pm
Barb, if by idiot American way you mean the idea that he "should" say it in order to make some kind of unequivocal official declaration, I don't need that, either. Not at all.

That's exactly what I mean.  You know, that particular breed of American that prefers "Crash" over this movie because they "just liked the message better" (i.e., prefer to be beaten about the head and body with "the message" and have their little hands held (down) whilst being spoon-fed an unbelievably trite and contrived story).  Those Americans.  Idiots.

(The important thing is that I'm not bitter, right?)

I love it because it is just about the sweetest, saddest thing in the world.

Couldn't agree with you more there.   :'(
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 08, 2006, 05:41:36 pm
Yes, I didn't know if I could really say "phallic" on line here....  But that's exactly what I wanted to say....

You can post pretty much anything you want, as long as it's not disrespectful to anybody else here or a photo with frontal nudity. Not only can you say phallic, but you can say that other word that starts with the same sound.  I've been asterisking it on this thread, but it's OK to spell it out if you prefer. Anyone who loves BBM as much as we do most likely isn't easily offended by that word, high-altitude or otherwise.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: wolf on June 08, 2006, 09:19:46 pm
Weird. At the very moment I read the line above, I heard someone on the TV blaring in the next room, which my husband has fallen asleep in front of, say "I love you." I hope that's a good omen.

I hereby offer a huge reward to anyone else (in addition to Daphne and Barb) who backs me up on this. To be paid in a generous sum of smiley icons. Wolf, please crank your volume up as high as it goes and sit right in front of the screen and be prepared to notice the slightest little facial movement or sound. I can't emphasize enough its subtlety.

yer preaching to the converted m'dear!  I've long heard the magic words in the shirt scene, but was curious to see if it was more apparent here on the puter.  as it turned out, I didn't get there -  life intervened  >:(.

I'm slapping the disc on again now so I can look for "ILY" and Jack's cylinder :P 8) :P.  Half hoping I won't find the latter because I have too much to do today to be rendered hot and bothered and useless!

w
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: vkm91941 on June 09, 2006, 02:31:09 am
This reminds me of all the controversy about the Rolling Stones and Beatles Albums in the 60's having secret messages if played in reverse.  When you played it in reverse you got a boat load of jibberish and some people made words out of it and other couldn't hear it at all.  Or like the EVP recordings parapsychologist make in so called haunted houses.

It's the power of the mind trying to make sense of what we're hearing so it fits it into a familiar model and what you hear is based on what you want to hear consciously or unconsciously based on your relationship with the characters.  There is no right or wrong answer as far as I'm concerned unless someone can get Heath and Jake to come on here and tell us what they actually said.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 09, 2006, 07:40:52 am
This reminds me of all the controversy about the Rolling Stones and Beatles Albums in the 60's having secret messages if played in reverse.

Here's what this reminds me of: In the early '90s, when the Disney cartoon "The Lion King" was still in theaters, some right-wing Christian groups protested that at one point in the movie the word S-E-X appears in letters formed out of dust that flies up when a lion flops onto the ground. I didn't have kids at the time, so I said, Yeah right, and pretty much forgot all about it.

Cut to about 1999. I now have two little kids and the "Lion King" video. One day I was sort of half watching for about the 130th time when I happened to glance at the screen and suddenly there it was:  S-E-X, in big, clear letters, formed out of dust that flies up when a lion flops onto the ground. The word appears for about half a second and then dissipates. I rewound. There it was again. Without a doubt. It flashes by quickly, but the letters are clear and large and you do not have to use your imagination to see them. Once I noticed it, I saw it every time I watched that scene (about 130 more times).

Why, I have no idea. Slow day in the animation room? (I hope this goes without saying, but it didn't bother me -- I was delighted! Even if my kids had been old enough to read, I would have been fine with it.)

(More info for Lion King owners who want to check: It's around the time Simba is talking to Rafiki, just before or after Mufasa's ghost appears in the night sky.)

Sometimes things sound too hokey to be true, like the rumor that you'll hear about Paul McCartney's death if you play Abbey Road backward. I used to think that way about the "I love you," which is why I never even bothered to look for it. But now that I've seen it, it's like the S-E-X. Hard to believe, but it really is there.

(In fairness, I should add that the ILY is much harder to detect. The S-E-X can be seen from the couch.)
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: nic on June 09, 2006, 08:45:22 am
Sorry, nic, it's not quite that good. Reportedly the extended scene was shown at the Independent Spirit awards, and I guess it lasts much longer and Ennis cries harder. I've never heard of anyone who has actually seen it except rtprod. Here's a link to a long-ago thread in which it's discussed on and off throughout:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1016.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1016.0)

Hold the phone! What a coincidence. I just glanced through the Chez Tremblay board and found this brief discussion, from just a few days ago:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2324.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2324.0)

So it's still mysterious. If anyone knows of its whereabouts, please post it immediately and prominently and alert everybody.

The extra footage has now been posted  :o  Check out that second link above and it will give details!!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: SFEnnisSF on June 09, 2006, 11:11:22 am
I'm still in the "maybe" camp on this one, but on TOB (I) there was some discussion of Jack's name "spelled out subliminally" as Ennis leaves the Twists' house:

"The right side of the windshield of Ennis's truck makes the 'J'. The roof of the house makes the 'A'. The cloud above the peak makes the 'C'. The large tree to the right of the house makes the 'K', although you have to fill in the bottom right leg of the letter."

Oh yes, it's definitely there!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: welliwont on June 11, 2006, 08:08:06 pm
How about the subliminal messages that Ang Lee put in to flash up every few seconds: "you will love & adore my film", "you will become utterly obsessed by this story", "you will fall uncontrollably in love with both Jack & Ennis", etc etc  :D

That's genius!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 11, 2006, 11:36:05 pm
I tried listening to the one line of the reunion scene which has confounded me --

What does Ennis say at the end of the kissing during the reunion scene just after the nuzzle and just before he heads back up the stairs to the apartment??!!

It sounds like he says, "Hey, I gotta go...."  Just like he says to Jack in the flashback scene.  It's like one of those mirrored lines throughout the film.

It's a tough line to hear because a rather hearty Gustavo guitar chord is strung right at the same moment as Heath delivers Ennis' line......

Someone may want to check it out and let me know if I'm right....

???
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 12, 2006, 11:36:35 am
What does Ennis say at the end of the kissing during the reunion scene just after the nuzzle and just before he heads back up the stairs to the apartment??!!

I think he says "hey, c'mere." Someone posted an audio clip of it in which it was more distinct. I'm not at home now, but I will look later to see if I have it saved somewhere. It's still a mirror, because he says "hey, c'mere" to Alma a couple of times.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: wolf on June 12, 2006, 10:32:19 pm
I tried listening to the one line of the reunion scene which has confounded me --

What does Ennis say at the end of the kissing during the reunion scene just after the nuzzle and just before he heads back up the stairs to the apartment??!!

Someone may want to check it out and let me know if I'm right....

???

I've always heard "later", followed by "c'mere".   As in 'we'll continue this later, but for now, come upstairs and meet my wife'.  But I hear what I want to hear, so take that with a large grain of salt!

W
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on June 14, 2006, 04:25:02 pm
Hi Y'all, I am so happy.  In the airport waiting for my plane to go home from the San Francisco BBM adventure, I suddenly had this great idea for how to use the plane time - I paid $9.95 for about half an hour of airport internet access (hey - what's $9.95 after the hundreds I just paid for this trip?), and downloaded various threads that I've been eager to read, but hadn't gotten to yet, like this one, so that I could catch up on them on the plane.  So you all are with me on the plane.  I also have the full screen BBM DVD in my laptop, and have been watching/listening to the scenes you all are talking about here.  Here's my experience:

I just watched the "I love you" scene about 10 times, and definitely see the mouth twitch, twitch, twitch that could be it.  I couldn't hear it though.  I will watch it again in a a quieter place.  I couldn't hear or see the "Oh Jack."

The "fuck me, fuck me" I absolutely heard, clear as a bell.  It goes like this: Ennis spits in his hand, groans as he enters Jack, Jack groans and then says, "fuck me, fuck me."  I have watched this scene a time or two hundred, and never heard it til now, but now I can't NOT hear it.  I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.

The wedding ring is easy to see in the motel scene on the full screen version.  In fact, it's why I bought the full screen version, because someone used that as an example of how much more of the edge of scenes you could see in it.

I have always been able to hear the first "c'mere" of the reunion scene, before the kiss (and the subtitles say it).  The apres-kiss "c'mere" and "later," I can kind of hear them, but I don't see Ennis's mouth move.

I just spent an hour and fifteen minutes on this one thread  - and the important videographic research.  :)  Why do we care so much?  Who are we?

Title: the nuzzle scene
Post by: welliwont on June 14, 2006, 04:42:18 pm
I've always heard "later", followed by "c'mere".   As in 'we'll continue this later, but for now, come upstairs and meet my wife'.  But I hear what I want to hear, so take that with a large grain of salt!

W

naw, no grains of salt needed here, I hear and interpret exactly the same way as you do W!


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 14, 2006, 05:02:57 pm
I just watched the "I love you" scene about 10 times, and definitely see the mouth twitch, twitch, twitch that could be it.  I couldn't hear it though.  I will watch it again in a a quieter place.

As a big proponent of "I love you," I'll admit that the three twitches are nearly all there is to go on. With my volume at 63 (highest it will go) and my face inches from the screen, I can just make out three audible murmurings muffled by shirt cloth and almost drowned out by music. Definitely one-syllable words, though admittedly they could be just about any three words in any language. But why else would his mouth twitch exactly three times, and what else would he mutter under the circumstances? "So this is where my damn shirt went" is too many syllables.

The immediate cutoff a split second later strikes me as another clue.

Unless someone has better audio/visual equipment than mine, this may always require a leap of faith. But having decided for myself that it's "I love you," I'm like you are, Clarissa, with the "fuck me" -- I can't see it any other way.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: wolf on June 14, 2006, 11:13:35 pm
"So this is where my damn shirt went"

/quote]

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

now you've got me thinking up three word alternatives.

Jack Fucking Twist?
This Shirt Stinks?
Ennis is Gay?

seriously, I agree regarding the immediate cut-off.  it's highly suggestive of An Important Moment. which would, of course, be Ennis' 20 year wait to say the magic words.

JakeTwist, no salt then  ;). 

W



Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 15, 2006, 07:24:19 pm
The "fuck me, fuck me" I absolutely heard, clear as a bell.  It goes like this: Ennis spits in his hand, groans as he enters Jack, Jack groans and then says, "fuck me, fuck me."  I have watched this scene a time or two hundred, and never heard it til now, but now I can't NOT hear it.  I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.

Heya,
Well, hmmm, once you have a chance to see a brighter DVD I'm sure you'll see the "hand holding" clear as a bell too... especially on a full screen edition. 

I KNOW!  I hear the "fuck me, fuck me" these days too.  I wish I didn't hear them though... I much prefer the idea that this all happened in silence (other than Ennis's early "what are you doing").   I think it's interesting because you can still make those lines sound like groans if you really concentrate and want it to be that way.
 ::) :-\
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 15, 2006, 11:11:18 pm
I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.
 Why do we care so much?  Who are we?

Clarissa, in answer to your first comment, if all else fails and you are intent on seeing the handholding, try "4 Nights in 20 Years." That's where I first saw it (in the days when I was getting by with YouTube in lieu of a DVD). If you've got a letterbox DVD, it may be impossible.

In answer to your second question,  ??? The whole thing is very mysterious, isn't it?

In answer to your third,  ??? also. After coffee with Celeste this morning, I'm still wondering, because it sounded like she felt sort of the same. Why are we like this?


Title: cylinder??
Post by: welliwont on June 16, 2006, 02:32:27 am

I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.


Hi Clarissa, I can't stand it any more, can you please tell me what you mean by writing "cylinder"?  I know about the handholding, because I have the Fullscreen DVD and it is easier to see it than in the Widescreen DVD (which I also have, or course,  ;) being the full-fledged self-respecting gyllenhaalic brokie that I am  :D)

so what is cyiinder????



I just spent an hour and fifteen minutes on this one thread  - and the important videographic research.  :)  Why do we care so much?  Who are we?


I had begun a reply to these two questions, but I did not finish it and my comp ate it all up, so now I am going to answer your  questions with a related post (sort of) instead.

Here is a post from TOB, I find it interesting how diametrically opposed this person's impression of BBM is to mine, and to the rest of the brokies(?)

Quote
  What is the point of this film...?    
  by - james_norman1981 (Thu Jun 1 2006 09:26:07 )    
Ignore this User | Report Abuse    Reply
Please read this piece before commenting on it as the above, albeit fairly inflammatory, subject heading is a genuine question.

I watched BBM for the first time last night and thought it was very good: amazing cinematography, two excellent leads (Heath Ledger particularly impressive) and lots of great things... but what exactly is the point of this film?

Is it trying to make us aware that homosexuality is not a sin? In this day and age it seems to be on an equal with heterosexuality. Is it just a love story between two people? If so it's awfully depressing, suggesting that the two leads can never change themselves quite enough to accomodate their relationship and that the places they live will never change during their lifetime to allow their love. Is it just meant to be a story that wasn't supposed to have any deep and meaningful meaning? In that case it's not really worth watching in my opinion...

My main problem with this film, other than the length which I thought was a bit self indulgent, is that it seems to be the opposite of an oil painting... minute examination of the individual components, such as the scenes, the music, the cinematography, the characterization and the acting, reveals brilliant thing after brilliant thing. However, if you take a step back and look at the film as a whole, it doesn't seem to add up to much in my opinion. It's as if Ang Lee and his crew created a very abstract sculpture out of the most incredibly beautiful and expensive building blocks they could find. You find yourself being blinded by those blocks but, when asked about the sculpture itself, you just get a vague feeling that there was some obvious thing about it you didn't understand but you don't want to say that and appear ignorant and/or homophobic... so you just focus on how great the building blocks were.

Anyhow, this is just my opinion and I'd love to hear whether anyone else had the same feeling or some explanations as to the message this film was trying to suggest which I somehow missed. I liked BBM a fair bit, particularly the various aspects I've already discribed, I just can't help feeling there's something I missed to make the whole seem more complete. Am I just over analysing this movie, have I missed something or does anyone else have the same problem?[/email]


and his follow-up post:


Quote
Thanks for your replies    
  by - james_norman1981 (Fri Jun 2 2006 04:43:11 )    
Ignore this User | Report Abuse    Reply
Dear all,

Thank you for replying to my query levelly and intelligently. From your comments I believe that there was no big message I failed to see in BBM and that, to my mind, it is therefore not quite as great a film as I'd been led to expect.

I also had a number of replies to some of the questions posed by rayminhu. Unfortunately, a rather epic comment on the nature of societal peer pressure on the viewing public for such films as BBM, Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan has been deleted thanks to a power cut, so you've been spared my self indulgence!

Therefore, much quicker than before (as I have to get back to work), I'll try and offer some replies.

"Is it trying to make us aware that homosexuality is not a sin? In this day and age it seems to be on an equal with heterosexuality."

This comment was not intended to hold homsexuality up as a sin but to ask what was the point of a film telling us about the extremely puritanical attitude visited on homosexuals in the 1960's when, in the 2000's our attitude is one of tolerance in the majority? I had far more eloquent and intelligent arguments than that but, sadly, I haven't really got time to try and think them up again. My own view is that homosexuality should not only be tolerated by the majority it should be unacceptable to be intolerant towards it (again, not very eloquent or farsighted but time waits for no man).

"I don't understand how the length can be "self indulgent." Please elaborate."

Film pacing is vital to any movie. Longer than average films must give their audience some sort of payoff, whether emotional, visual or what have you. BBM didn't do this for me (damn power cuts, I wish I could try and argue this properly!).

"A film can be well made in every respect and not appeal to you. A lot of well-made films are quite boring, in my opinion."

"Just don't feel like you have to like the movie merely because it's well made, or that its individual parts come together harmoniously, or that everyone else is praising it. Likewise, don't feel like you have to find flaws in the film merely because it didn't register with you as it apparently did with a lot of others."

I'll take these two points together (and at warp speed). BBM, Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan are all films where the tide of public and critical opinion in favour of these movies meant that anyone who said they didn't like them was labelled homophobic, anti-semetic [spelling?], unpatriotic or what have you. This means that, when you see the film, you're automatically looking to like it for fear that your liberal peers will castigate you if you say otherwise... However, I wasn't quite prepared to accept this in BBM's case (as I am older and more comfortable in my opinions and attitudes, in so much as they're not fascist, compared to when the other two first came out), hence my question 'What is the point of this film...?'

Anyhow, must go now. I know my points are rather scattergorical and (perhaps) irrelevent, however, if any of you read this and reply, I'd be delighted to try and go through them in more detail (and more intelligence) at a later date when I have time!

Byefornow.

PS None of the comments posted on this thread have labelled me at all homophobic or what have you and are all very level headed and intelligent. However, there is certainly a sense of 'us and them' with regards to liking this film: many of the antiBBM crowd are horendously homophobic and even fascist while some of the pro crowd regard the film as the greatest work ever etc. etc. My comments (particularly this one) are merely to ask why has itbecome so hard to find a middle way?

Thanks for reading.



PS:  Here is a link to the complete thread at IMDb:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/44718471 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/44718471)


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 16, 2006, 10:22:09 am
JakeTwist, re cylinder, I know you asked this of Ellemeno but while I'm here I'm happy to answer it, hoping she doesn't mind. Some people have suggested that, in the handholding scene, Ennis is holding onto some other part of Jack. "Cylindrical" was Daphne7661's polite way of describing, back on page 4, the object she glimpsed.

Re James Norman's posts, he sounds reasonable enough. But he is very wrong in his assumption that people love BBM because of external pressure. I can speak only for myself, but social pressure (or desire to appear unhomophobic) had nothing to do with my reaction. Before I saw it, I had read the story and the glowing reviews, and realized it would probably be good. Still, I didn't hurry out to see it. I guess I assumed it would be sort of preachy, and (like James Norman, apparently) I already felt like a member of the choir. Or something. Anyway, one night in late January I was going to a movie alone, and chose Brokeback mainly because it best fit my schedule.

I came out of the theater feeling like my life had changed. And it had! At that point, I didn't even understand or fully appreciate all the "beautiful and expensive building blocks" he talks about, nor was I focusing on any particular "message." I just knew I loved it, felt both devastated and enthralled, thought about it constantly, had to keep seeing it. Before that, I had never seen any movie more than a few times -- I've since seen BBM 13 more times. I've never posted on a movie message board before, at imdb or elsewhere. Five months later, I still spend hours here each day. Who in their right mind does that in order to appear PC? (Who in their right mind does it for any reason, I often ask myself, but that's another topic.)

James Norman just doesn't get it.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: belbbmfan on June 16, 2006, 11:06:11 am
I can speak only for myself, but social pressure (or desire to appear unhomophobic) had nothing to do with my reaction.
Couldn't agree more.

Quote
I came out of the theater feeling like my life had changed. And it had! At that point, I didn't even understand or fully appreciate all the "beautiful and expensive building blocks" he talks about, nor was I focusing on any particular "message." I just knew I loved it, felt both devastated and enthralled, thought about it constantly, had to keep seeing it. Before that, I had never seen any movie more than a few times -- I've since seen BBM 13 more times. I've never posted on a movie message board before, at imdb or elsewhere. Five months later, I still spend hours here each day. Who in their right mind does that in order to appear PC? (Who in their right mind does it for any reason, I often ask myself, but that's another topic.)
I wish I could say 'you took the words right out of my mouth'. Thank you for once again putting into beautiful words what this movie means to me.


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Mikaela on June 16, 2006, 01:49:51 pm
Quote
Orignally from James_Norman
I thought was a bit self indulgent, is that it seems to be the opposite of an oil painting... minute examination of the individual components, such as the scenes, the music, the cinematography, the characterization and the acting, reveals brilliant thing after brilliant thing. However, if you take a step back and look at the film as a whole, it doesn't seem to add up to much in my opinion. It's as if Ang Lee and his crew created a very abstract sculpture out of the most incredibly beautiful and expensive building blocks they could find.

I found this interesting because it describes the exact opposite of my reaction. It was the whole, the total experience of the film, that blew me away and made me walk around completely and utterly dazed for days. Even though I knew a lot about the film beforehand, even though I had read the short story multiple times, and therefore really didn't expect to be so *completely* devastated by the film.

In order to understand that overwhelming impact of the whole on me, I've since been looking into, discussing in minute detail and trying to understand those various building blocks that James Norman talks about. But however exquisite and perfect each of them is; - the acting, the careful symbolism, the intentional ambiguity, the cinematography etc - I still find that the total, the film's overall impact on me, is so much *more* than can be explained through the mere sum of those impressive parts.
Title: RE: Cylinder?
Post by: welliwont on June 16, 2006, 02:07:06 pm
Ok, now I am at work :( and I cannot spend too long on this post, but here goes:

I posted james_norman 1981’s two comments to contrast a difference of opinion about our beloved BBM.  The human race is a funny thing, all I can say is his response is the most surprising to me of any I have read so far.  Our reactions could not be further apart… are we even the same species? ???   I guess this just re-enforces to me the fact that our reaction to BBM is a function of the nucleus of our soul and of our life experiences.

JakeTwist, re cylinder, I know you asked this of Ellemeno but while I'm here I'm happy to answer it, hoping she doesn't mind. Some people have suggested that, in the handholding scene, Ennis is holding onto some other part of Jack. "Cylindrical" was Daphne7661's polite way of describing, back on page 4, the object she glimpsed.

Hi Katherine, thanks for answering....  ok, I have watched this scene more than anyone else on the planet, but I see my research is not complete!   :D  I will have to re-visit this scene again when I get home tonight, but if memory serves, IMO it did not look like Ennis' hand reached that far...  it looks like Jack grabs Ennis' hand, I did not see what Daphne glimpsed.  ... can't wait to see it on the big screen again!!

J

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 16, 2006, 02:37:44 pm
Well, JakeTwist, all I can say is that I have watched the scene in search of the cylinder and haven't seen it either. But please report back your findings ...

And back to James Norman, I'm glad you posted his opinions. As I said, he seems reasonable enough, and since he's willing to analyze his own response (or lack thereof) the contrast gives us a jumping-off point in analyzing our own. Thanks for your nice comment, belbbmfan, and Mikaela, let me extend the same compliment to you. It's like you have looked inside my head -- that's exactly how I've felt for the past five months. (Oh my god, is it really FIVE MONTHS I've been like this?! I'm nothin and nowhere -- except online discussing a movie for hours each day?)

I implore everybody involved in this discussion (and everybody else, too!) to check out the thread I just started on this topic: "Why are we like this?" I would love to understand more about this issue. Maybe the thread should be called "Why is Brokeback Mountain like this?" The question being, what is it about the movie, or us, that has this effect?




Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: twistedude on June 19, 2006, 03:04:19 pm
Since everything he does from ther finding of ther shirts to the end of the movie sasysd exactly that, why doesd he have to SAY it? I don't hear it, bu5t of course I'll listen agaqin to make sure...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 19, 2006, 03:13:01 pm
He doesn't "have to" say it, Julie. In other words, I don't get all excited about seeing it because it confirms something that I think would be otherwise in doubt. I saw the movie my first 12 times without seeing it and had no doubt whatsoever (in fact, I'm in the camp that believes Ennis himself had no doubt, much earlier than the closet scene).

No, I get all excited about it because it's just incredibly sweet and sad. But then, that's why I get all excited about pretty much the whole damn movie. It's incredibly sweet and sad whether you see the ILY or not.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: welliwont on June 19, 2006, 11:59:16 pm
Well, JakeTwist, all I can say is that I have watched the scene in search of the cylinder and haven't seen it either. But please report back your findings ...

Hii Katherine:  well it is I, JakeTwist, reporting back..  here are my findings:

Cylinder?  ...naw, I don't think that's what Ennis was reaching for, not in his character so soon in the evolution of their relationship.  Besides it doesn't look to me like his hand is reaching that far... IMO.

And I did watch our beloved BBM from start to finish last night, and I replayed Ennis hugging the shirts, and I definitely do see one side of his mouth moving, (fluttering), but that's as far as I can surmise.  Personally I don't think Ennis said ILY into the shirts, I just don't see him saying it to shirts, but that's just IMO.

I gotta go wrap my brain around a real humdinger of an OP that I have been assigned to come up with.... ;D  AND I just won the part of John C. Twist in the C.T. production of Broken Arsed Mountain!  Yeehaw!!!  :)   ;D  :laugh:

J
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on June 20, 2006, 07:04:54 pm
Hello All,

I have been away for awhile, busy at work, but wanted to respond.  I apologize for having used the word "cylindrical" or "cylinder" - I was just trying to be polite and not to offend anyone.

Anyway, since nobody else seemed to think I saw what I saw, I have watched BBM many more times (not that I need an excuse to watch it again, mind you).  Something caught my eye which kind of confirms my theory.  Right after Ennis spits and enters Jack, you can see Ennis' right hand reach around and make a rather swift back and forth motion for several moments.  What else could he be doing?  I can't imagine that he was doing that to Jack's "hand"....

Thoughts?

 ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 20, 2006, 07:11:18 pm
I have been away for awhile, busy at work, but wanted to respond.  I apologize for having used the word "cylindrical" or "cylinder" - I was just trying to be polite and not to offend anyone.

No need to apologize, Daphne! It was a polite, cute and accurate way to describe it.

As for the swift back-and-forth motion, I haven't seen that. But if so -- wow, they thought of everything in this scene, hunh? I don't have the DVD at the moment, but perhaps I can check YouTube ...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 20, 2006, 07:29:19 pm
 ... OK, I'm back. (And BTW, has my computer suddenly gotten speedier, or has YouTube made some improvements? Seems the videos load much faster than they used to.)

Anyway, I can see him reach down there somewhere but can't detect any swift movement except that which involves his whole body. I can only see the top of his arm, though, so his hand could be doing just about anything down there.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: wolf on June 20, 2006, 09:48:27 pm
But he is very wrong in his assumption that people love BBM because of external pressure. I can speak only for myself, but social pressure (or desire to appear unhomophobic) had nothing to do with my reaction.

James Norman just doesn't get it.

ditto the bolding.  found his inclination to believe social pressure plays a part very odd, in fact.  and just for the record, I hated Saving Private Ryan like poison  ;D.

as for the beautiful building blocks, I didn't start to see them until well into my obsession.  it's always been about the whole.  it truly is so much greater than the sum of it's parts that I'm almost in admiration of this dude for having the presence of mind to actually see the parts, and at his very first viewing. 

W
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 21, 2006, 12:06:35 am
If social pressure were the cause of my obsession, why would I be spending all these hours here -- unbeknownst to almost everybody but you guys? As much as I want to show that I'm not not homophobic, I think trying to prove it by spending approximately 16 hours a day for five months reading, writing and thinking about a two-hour movie might be overkill.

I gladly testify on behalf of Brokeback any chance I get, but for the most part I practice my most obsessive behavior on the QT.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: wolf on June 21, 2006, 09:13:37 pm
I gladly testify on behalf of Brokeback any chance I get, but for the most part I practice my most obsessive behavior on the QT.

another ditto 

I don't leave no sargn. roll up this forum every mornin' 'case the husband-service snoops around.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 21, 2006, 11:54:46 pm
I don't leave no sargn. roll up this forum every mornin' 'case the husband-service snoops around.

Me too! No open Windows, don't leave no sign. Eat my supper, breakfast at BetterMost, but leave the monitor screen on Slate, hundred percent. Clear the browsing history every 10 minutes, 'case the husband or sons snoop around.

As I've asked many times before, why am I like this?!


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 22, 2006, 12:04:17 am
I never bothered to hide my trips to Bettermost because I thought nobody was interested in my family. I was logged in "forever" at home. My husband became curious one day and went in and read "all of my posts." (I don't think he read them all, but quite a few. He really blew up at first (didn't drop a dozen eggs tho) but when he thought about it he realized that it's something that keeps me sane. And he seems to understand...even says "Say hello to those Brokies" sometimes when I head off to the home office. Tho he still refuses to see the movie...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 22, 2006, 12:14:13 am
Clearly, Lee, I'm an Ennis and you're a Jack -- or you were forced into the role of Jack, anyway.

If my husband read all my posts, I guess I'd have to tell him it don't mean nothin and threaten to make him eat the floor!  And he's not that much against seeing the movie himself; he claims not to like romances, has never shown much interest. But if I forced the issue, he probably would. Nevertheless, he hasn't, and now I'm to the point of not even wanting to watch it with him.

Anyway ...now I'm straying pretty far OT, and I was the OP!


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on June 23, 2006, 09:32:31 am
You know how some people have said they think Ennis says "I love you" when he finds the shirts? Well, I have always been so skeptical about this that I've never even bothered to look for it.

But today I was skipping around my rental DVD, watching key scenes maybe for one the last time until fall. And I had the volume up higher than usual and noticed I kept hearing little muttered things that I hadn't heard in the past. So when I got to the shirt scene I decided to listen -- and watch -- really closely.

And now I think I agree.

I looked for it exactly the way I've tried to figure out "sorry/s'alright" -- watching for whether Ennis' lips move -- and in that scene they don't, which is why I moved to the "no sorry" camp. But in the closet scene his lips do move -- only you can hardly see it because the shirts are in the way. It's right after he takes a deep breath, trying to smell Jack's scent on the shirts. You can only see about a quarter inch of his mouth. But he moves as it if saying three words -- those three particular ones, in fact. And under the music, you can just barely hear something that sounds like three words being muttered.

I rewound and watched it about four more times with the volume cranked to 60 and my eyes about three inches away from the screen, and each time I became more and more convinced.

What do you all think?

I vehemantly disagree with you on both points. The first one ... I am convinced Ennis does not say "I love you" when he is sniffing the shirts. After reading a quote from Diana Ossana, I believe I am right on that point:

When told of his daughter's impending wedding, Ennis (Heath Ledger) initially mentions having to work on her big day, but quickly reconsiders. "I reckon they can find themselves a new cowboy," he says.

"It is the first time in Ennis' life that he shifts his mind," Ossana points out. "It's also the only time he mentions love."


As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: welliwont on June 23, 2006, 10:12:18 am

As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?


Hello dly64,

I guess you are fairly new here, so I will have to be the one to tell you that the "I'm sorry / s'awright" debate has been outlawed on the BetterMost board, could get you killed if you should come to discuss it here.  :o

J
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: JCinNYC2006 on June 23, 2006, 10:18:45 am
As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?

I had never participated in the debate about what's said in this scene, but seeing the movie in San Francisco rang a bell.  The sound quality was really incredible...little details like the salt being shaken (thanks Ruby) and stuff like that.  So when that second tent scene came up, it sounded very clearly like the exchange went: E-"I'm sorry."  J-"It's alright, it's alright."  Some of the other folks who came heard it the same way (right Nipith?  :D  I haven't 'gone to the video' yet to double check but I probably will at some point....

Juan
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on June 23, 2006, 10:44:46 am
I guess you are fairly new here, so I will have to be the one to tell you that the "I'm sorry / s'awright" debate has been outlawed on the BetterMost board, could get you killed if you should come to discuss it here. 

I am guessing that this has been hotly debated???? At least I am glad JCinNYC2006 agrees with me. Hmmmm .... any other taboo topics I should be aware of?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 23, 2006, 10:58:21 am
I vehemantly disagree with you on both points. The first one ... I am convinced Ennis does not say "I love you" when he is sniffing the shirts. After reading a quote from Diana Ossana, I believe I am right on that point:

When told of his daughter's impending wedding, Ennis (Heath Ledger) initially mentions having to work on her big day, but quickly reconsiders. "I reckon they can find themselves a new cowboy," he says.

"It is the first time in Ennis' life that he shifts his mind," Ossana points out. "It's also the only time he mentions love."


As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?


I go back and forth on the sorry/s'alright myself, so I won't take a stand here. But I will say that the people who write the subtitles are in the same position we are -- they just have to listen and watch and try to figure it out for themselves. People here who have compared different subtitled versions say the subtitles vary from one to the next.

As for Diana's comment on the "I love you" issue, sorry, but I don't think she's an infallible authority, either. Of course it's true that the first time in the script that Ennis mentions love is when he's talking to Alma Jr. But I'm assuming she wasn't standing there in the closet on the day they filmed the shirts scene. If he did said it, it would have been a decision made by Ang and/or Heath, outside of the directions of the screenplay, perhaps at the last minute, perhaps not even done in all of the takes ... I mean, I have no idea what the circumstances might have been, but I'm assuming it could have been done without consulting Diana, possibly without her even hearing about it or noticing it afterward. It's not meant to call attention to itself, that's for sure. If there at all, it's not supposed to be a major plot turning point -- you would hardly even call it him "mentioning" love. If there, it's supposed to be, well, nearly indiscernible.

Oh, while I was writing this, your latest post came in, dly. JakeTwist is kidding, it's not taboo. But what she's saying is that it's been discussed a million times, never with any satisfactory resolution or concensus. Rest assured that JCinNYC2006 is far from the only person who agrees with you.

But there are no taboo topics here -- well, except those that attack or hurt somebody or involve posting photos containing full frontal nudity. Otherwise, bring up anything you want!

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: welliwont on June 23, 2006, 01:48:47 pm
I am guessing that this has been hotly debated???? At least I am glad JCinNYC2006 agrees with me. Hmmmm .... any other taboo topics I should be aware of?


I hope you got the part where I was pulling your leg!!    ;D :laugh:

Hotly debated is an understatement!  This has been the most contentious topic, IMO.  There have been more posts on this enigma than....    welll I don't even know what to compare it to. ::)  there was also a poll  --  I have seached for 20 mins cannot locate it yet. but I will!

Welcome to BetterMost dly64!  It's a great place! :) :)


PS to Juan:


but seeing the movie in San Francisco rang a bell.  The sound quality was really incredible...little details like the salt being shaken (thanks Ruby) and stuff like that.  So when that second tent scene came up, it sounded very clearly like the exchange went: E-"I'm sorry."  J-"It's alright, it's alright."  Some of the other folks who came heard it the same way (right Nipith?  :D  I haven't 'gone to the video' yet to double check but I probably will at some point....

Juan

That is very interesting, I myself am waiting for it to come back to a cinema near me at which time I will be going to see it at least one more time, I look forward to hearing this passage more clearly, as you did!  I sure hope I can hear it better.  I have glued my ear to the speakers when viewing the DVD, and well, I don't even want to get into the fray on this one, I believe what I believe, unless I hear / see it differently at a big-screen viewing.

BTW does anyone know where the big long thread with the debate and the poll went to?   It used to be at BM, it thought it was under "Chez Tremblay"  I thought it had FNIT in the title, but I can't find it for dly64.

Anyone?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on June 23, 2006, 06:40:56 pm
I hope you got the part where I was pulling your leg!!    ;D :laugh:

Hotly debated is an understatement!  This has been the most contentious topic, IMO.  There have been more posts on this enigma than....    welll I don't even know what to compare it to. ::)  there was also a poll  --  I have seached for 20 mins cannot locate it yet. but I will!

Oh, I absolutely knew you were joking. When you see my posts, you will probably realize that I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. :laugh: You will also see that I have a bleeding heart. What an odd combination, eh?  ::)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Mikaela on June 24, 2006, 04:07:01 am
Quote
people who write the subtitles are in the same position we are -- they just have to listen and watch and try to figure it out for themselves.

I have always figured they'd be getting an "official text" from the distributor to go with the subtitling preparation and to help them in the listening process - at least as far as subtitling in other languages go. Doesn't mean the official text can't have errors in the first place, of course.....  But I noted that "Don Wroe" was spelled correctly in the subtitling over here - and there's absolutely no way that would have happened if the translator didn't have the correct name in writing! (Though if he was extremely diligent he could have gotten it from the original short story).

Perhaps the official text is the one being used for original English subtitling, and that one is based on the spoken dialogue as interpreted by a subtitler, and everything else flows from that. So if there's an error in that one, it gets magnified. Then again, the English subtitles of the SNIT doesn't only have the "I'm sorry" but adds " C'mon, lie back down" or some such - which has *not* been picked up in the translations.

Perhaps it's just that they all actually give less attention to all the subtitilng and translating correctness and completeness than we do? :o  ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Sheyne on June 24, 2006, 04:57:47 am
But I will say that the people who write the subtitles are in the same position we are -- they just have to listen and watch and try to figure it out for themselves.

Uhhhh yeah.. referring the new guys to my thread on my Malaysian bootleg subtitles...

...it also helps if they speak English.  ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 24, 2006, 03:35:00 pm
Perhaps it's just that they all actually give less attention to all the subtitilng and translating correctness and completeness than we do? :o  ;)

Sometimes I wonder if even Annie, Larry, Diana, Ang, Heath and Jake paid as much attention to the minutiae of this film as we do!  :laugh:

Don Wroe is mentioned in the screenplay and short story, and I would assume the subtitlers had access to those.

"It's all right, it's all right" is in the "Story to Screenplay" version of the screenplay. No "sorry." (Neither, of course, is in the book.) But then again, it's perfectly possible to say something in the movie that wasn't in the screenplay.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Mikaela on June 24, 2006, 03:50:59 pm
Quote
But then again, it's perfectly possible to say something in the movie that wasn't in the screenplay.

I just realized that "I just can't stand this anymore" is in fact not in the screenplay. Pretty good example (among various others) of significant dialogue having been added probably as the scene was being filmed.


Since we're talking of possible or certain differences between the script and film, and barely unheard dialogue; - there's another "obscure, now you hear it, now you don't" moment I've been noticing for some time. It's in the scene where Jack and Ennis are riding through some woodland, directly after the scene where they meet up and Ennis brings beans. According to the script, Jack says: "I wish we'd jump a coyote. I'd love to rope a coyote" . Originally I thought they'd cut that, but now I think I distinctly hear jack saying the word "Coyote" in that scene. Anyone else hearing this?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 24, 2006, 04:04:25 pm
I just realized that "I just can't stand this anymore" is in fact not in the screenplay. Pretty good example (among various others) of significant dialogue having been added probably as the scene was being filmed.

Wow, that's for sure! Good catch. I guess I noticed this while reading the screenplay but forgot all about it. Now that line seems really crucial to my understanding of that scene and what follows.

As for the coyote quote, I haven't heard it. But then I have never even heard the bean quote.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on June 24, 2006, 05:56:37 pm
I just realized that "I just can't stand this anymore" is in fact not in the screenplay. Pretty good example (among various others) of significant dialogue having been added probably as the scene was being filmed.

You are right that there are things that were added in the film that were not in the screenplay and vice versa. The whole scene after Jack says "you're late" is primarily cut out. I actually think Ennis does say "Look what I brought" ... and then he was going to pull out the beans ....  Beyond that, who knows? Then again ... a matter of interpretation.

Another sentence that is not in the screenplay, but is in the movie (that is, if we are in agreement) is when Ennis says, "Been puttin' the blocks to a good lookin' little gal over in Riverton ...."   (as an FYI ... I know this is not the complete dialogue). Afterwards, he says, "I don't know."
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on June 24, 2006, 06:46:00 pm
Here’s what my ears tell me:

Jack: “You’re late.”
Ennis: “Look what I brought!”
?? (can’t tell): “Beans.”
Ennis: “Gonna cook ’em up just the way I used to.”
---
As they’re going over the deep moss, Ennis says something about “them beans” (I think).
---
As you see the two of them way back in the forest, Jack says, “I wish I could rope a coyote.”

I don't hear any dialogue when they are riding. I guess "here we go again". I will have to listen closely and see if there is anything I am not hearing.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 24, 2006, 06:52:34 pm
A friend of mine mentioned that Linda Cardellini currently plays a nurse. In the 2003 screenplay, there’s nothing about Cassie wanting to go to nursing school. In “Story to Screenplay,” it’s there. She thinks maybe they put that line in there as sort of a clever nod to Cardellini.

That would be funny. But if they're going to slyly refer to ER, shouldn't they make subtle references to Donnie Darko and A Knight's Tale and The Princess Diaries and Dawson's Creek and so on? And I'm glad they didn't feel the need to work in an allusion to any of Anna Faris' other roles ...!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 28, 2006, 09:08:15 pm
Well, maybe the nurse reference to Linda and nursing is like the reference Lureen makes to the "ice storm"~ I would guess this is a nod to Ang Lee.  I've also often wondered if the Jolly Green Giant sign that we see behind Monroe in the peanuts scene is a goofy reference to the Hulk.  I know that Lee sometimes likes to put himself in his movies as a cameo... He does this in the Wedding Banquet for example.  So, I wonder if, especially the ice storm comment, is sort of a reference to himself.

As you see the two of them way back in the forest, Jack says, “I wish I could rope a coyote.”

LOL!   :laugh: :laugh:
That's quite a kooky line.

Well, this issue of dialogue between our boys that we can't hear is really interesting. There are at least two moments like that during the '63 summer.  When they're setting up their second camp (when Jack hoists that driftwood log up and Ennis comes over to him and maybe touches his shoulder) we can hear that conversation is going on, but we can't make out the words.  The same thing happens, also during the camp shift, there's a scene where Jack is shown on his horse positioned in stark profile to the audience and is near the sheep herd and Ennis comes ambling into the frame (he sort of emerges out of the space of the audience) with the string of mules behind him.  As he approaches Jack we can hear that they're talking... but again, it seems quite deliberate that we can't hear what they're saying.  And, then those examples of the later camping trips are other good intances of this phenomenon (as people have posted above).  The most interesting moment, I think of the filmmakers blocking our ability to hear what the boys are saying comes in the flashback... Well, here I mean we can't hear what Ennis is humming to Jack because of the soundtrack that swells and overwhelms Ennis's humming.

My theory is that all of these (many) moments of not being able to hear/ fully participate in all these scenes is meant to make us feel a little like voyeurs... that we're witnessing something intensely private between Jack and Ennis and that some of what goes on is so private that we're not granted access.  This idea of "privacy" is interesting to me lately... it reminds me of Lee's description from the DVD bonus features of the relationship being "private and precious and something they can't articulate" (I'm paraphrasing a bit... but it's turning into one of my favorite descriptions of the relationship between Jack and Ennis... especially in the early '63 stage of things).

[Apologies if I repeated anything here that's already been mentioned... I haven't re-read a lot of this thread for a long time].
 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 28, 2006, 11:43:01 pm
Me neither. But tell you what, this is the disadvantage of my viewings of the movie being only in the low (very low) two-digits. I haven't heard any of those nearly indiscenible conversations.

I can barely hear what they're saying in the tent during the hail storm. I can't hear what the radio announcer is saying when Ennis is packing for the fishing trip (though I have cranked up the volume and tried). It's due to either not seeing it enough times, or early stage hearing loss, I guess.

EDITED to correct my spelling. Did I really say "viewerings" at first?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 29, 2006, 01:32:16 am
In the full-screen version, right after Ennis says, “If I had three hands I could!” -- for just a split second, he really does have three hands. You can see an off-camera assistant’s right hand helping lift Alma Jr.

Get out!!  :o Really?! That's amazing.

As for your translation of other conversations, goadra, thank you for those. I especially love the "It's cold!" "Close it up!" If only a TS3 had followed!  :-*
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 29, 2006, 05:24:22 pm
"I can't stand this anymore" AND "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Neither were in the story, and it seems like the theme of standing was added at the scriptwriting or the filiming stage.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on June 29, 2006, 08:38:56 pm
As for your translation of other conversations, goadra, thank you for those. I especially love the "It's cold!" "Close it up!" If only a TS3 had followed!  :-*

Yes, you can hear the "it's cold" ... "close it up" when they are in that bad rain storm .... But I like your idea ... TS3! I know it happened ... just off screen, dang it!   ::)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 06, 2006, 01:02:22 pm
I thought there was a TS3. It was short...Jack and Ennis sleeping with Ennis's arm around Jack. They were facing left screen.

Also, I heard the "I love you" and I also saw Heath's lips move, though they were half-buried in the fabric of the shirts. Major moment, that one.  :P
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 06, 2006, 01:27:18 pm
I thought there was a TS3. It was short...Jack and Ennis sleeping with Ennis's arm around Jack. They were facing left screen.

Also, I heard the "I love you" and I also saw Heath's lips move, though they were half-buried in the fabric of the shirts. Major moment, that one.  :P

That's one of those things where there will never be concensus. I never heard it ... I have blasted the volume and have heard nothing other than his inhale and exhale. IMO, it just doesn't fit into Ennis' character to say that. The only time he says the word "love" is when he asks Alma, Jr. if "this Kurt fella ... he loves you?" Just my thought  .....
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 06, 2006, 01:58:33 pm
I thought there was a TS3. It was short...Jack and Ennis sleeping with Ennis's arm around Jack. They were facing left screen.

I think so, too. There are three. But tell you what, personally I could use a TS4, TS5, TS6, TS7, TS8 ...

Quote
Also, I heard the "I love you" and I also saw Heath's lips move, though they were half-buried in the fabric of the shirts. Major moment, that one.  :P

Welcome to the club, F-R! I hope you're using :P in a nice way, not a "yuck" way (I have to ask, given the controversy over this moment and the ambiguity of that smiley -- I've seen it used to convey "yuck" and "drool," which are pretty much opposites).

Diane, I think the very fact that it doesn't fit Ennis' character is what makes it so incredibly touching. But even for those who've seen it, it's sooooo subtle that it really doesn't take anything away from Ennis' use of the word in his question to Alma Jr.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 06, 2006, 03:19:41 pm
I think so, too. There are three. But tell you what, personally I could use a TS4, TS5, TS6, TS7, TS8 ...

YES!!!! I just can't get enough.

Quote
Diane, I think the very fact that it doesn't fit Ennis' character is what makes it so incredibly touching. But even for those who've seen it, it's sooooo subtle that it really doesn't take anything away from Ennis' use of the word in his question to Alma Jr.

I'm going to listen again tonight (when I have might nightly viewing) ... I'll check out. "I swear .... " I haven't been able to hear one darn word (up to this point)! So, I'll try it again!  ::)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 06, 2006, 04:05:12 pm
OK, then, here's my advice. Right after he breathes in the shirts, hoping for the scent, his face up close to the cloth -- watch for the left 1/4 inch or so of his mouth to twitch three times, as if he's saying three one-syllable words. Listen for him to make three short sounds, ditto. It won't sound or look particularly like "I love you." He could be saying just about anything, or twitching for some other reason. But that's the reason that makes the most sense -- and is the most emotionally thrilling -- to me.

Then, immediately -- and I mean IMMEDIATELY -- afterward, it cuts to Mrs. Twist in the kitchen. So if you get there and haven't seen it, rewind slightly and try again.

Good luck! Report back tomorrow!

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 06, 2006, 05:16:16 pm
I was using  :P in terms of **pant, pant** not yuck. Nothing associated with BBM could ever be yuck IMHO, not even a cat-piss smelling tent!! My setup to hear the "I love you" was earbuds and the DVD on my computer.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Amber on July 06, 2006, 05:43:23 pm
This is SOOOOO what we need a special edition DVD for.  *sighs* 

I don't think he says "I love you" but tell you what, that's what makes this movie so great, it is SO open for interpretation.  Everyone gets and see and hears different things from this movie, yet the story is just as strong for those who don't hear/see/get the same things.  The movie opens the door for different emotional interpretations.

If it turns out he does say "I love you" then I bet I cry even harder during that scene.  If that's even possible.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on July 06, 2006, 06:14:23 pm
I hear the radio during Ennis's packing almost the same, Barbara, but not quite:

"...This great big guy...big, hairy, monstrous guy - must have been a construction worker all his life. And he's sitting at the bar next to this little bitty fellah...and the bartender... (dialogue)...and he grabs this <something>...and he just slips <something>...

"How did you do that? And the little guy replies (soft, wussy voice, kind of like Wally Cox), "Well, Sir....."[/quote]

So, as I like to point out - I think this is a "faggot" joke.  The construction worker represents the red-blooded American male, and the little bitty guy represents a "queer."  What Ennis and Jack have to listen to subliminally.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Wayne on July 06, 2006, 06:54:55 pm
... "I love you" .... "Oh Jack." .... "fuck me, fuck me" .... "fuck me, fuck me." 
As of my most recent viewing I'm definitely with the "fuck me" crowd !!     :) :)

What I heard was "fuck ... .... me."   Long pause in between, and I only caught one iteration. But it was, as you say, clear as a bell!

It was nice!     :)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 07, 2006, 02:08:16 am
Nothing associated with BBM could ever be yuck IMHO, not even a cat-piss smelling tent!!

 :laugh:

Me neither. I would welcome the opportunity to feel even closer to Brokeback by sleeping in a pup tent that smelled like cat piss. Though I might draw the line at "or worse."
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Kazza on July 07, 2006, 04:56:12 am
I love the fact that in TS1 after they both jump up, Jack appears to grab Ennis’s hand and put it back *there* and even though Ennis mutters “What are you doing” he doesn’t pull it away until he grabs Jack’s head with both hands.

I’ve heard that the full screen version shows this a little more clearly – can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 07, 2006, 05:28:44 pm
That special edition is supposed to come out this month!!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 07, 2006, 07:57:33 pm
That special edition is supposed to come out this month!!

I went out to Amazon.com and didn't find any info on a special ed. Usually they have a preorder available. Keep us updated ... because if there is a Special Ed ... I'm getting it, PRONTO!!! I'll certainly let all of you know if I hear anything.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 08, 2006, 05:33:39 pm
That special edition is supposed to come out this month!!

Really!  Where did you hear this? Oooo, see now, you're getting us all excited!
 :D ;D



OK, I have a question about another "nearly indiscernible moment"... much less exciting than the shirts or TS1.  So, when Jack is pacing around in Lureen's office looking for his blue parka... Lureen says "you're the only **blah, blah, blah** salesman in fact..."  What does she say here??  I hate watching the movie with subtitles (they just irritate me for some reason) so I've never gotten around to checking this scene out with subtitles.  I'd surely appreciate it if someone has some insight here.
thanks!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 08, 2006, 05:41:11 pm
I think it's, "You're the best combine salesman we got -- you're the only combine salesman, in fact."

You probably know this, but a combine is a piece of farm equipment. I mean big farm equipment. It's among the $100,000 shit.

I believe what it does is harvest grain.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 08, 2006, 07:13:14 pm
OK, then, here's my advice. Right after he breathes in the shirts, hoping for the scent, his face up close to the cloth -- watch for the left 1/4 inch or so of his mouth to twitch three times, as if he's saying three one-syllable words. Listen for him to make three short sounds, ditto. It won't sound or look particularly like "I love you." He could be saying just about anything, or twitching for some other reason. But that's the reason that makes the most sense -- and is the most emotionally thrilling -- to me.

Then, immediately -- and I mean IMMEDIATELY -- afterward, it cuts to Mrs. Twist in the kitchen. So if you get there and haven't seen it, rewind slightly and try again.

Good luck! Report back tomorrow!

Katherine – Okay, girl. I never thought I’d say this …. (I can admit when I am wrong, however) …. I heard the “I love you …” I can’t believe it. I honestly have to say that I thought it was absurd to think that Ennis would say "I love you" while holding the shirt.  But I followed what you said and you are correct. It is extremely subtle. You are right that it does not take anything away from the story.

So what have I learned from being a participant on BetterMost? Nothing is a given. My opinions that I was so sure about are now wavering. I have come to a decision … when I watch my nightly viewing; I am going to watch it as if I have no preconceived ideas/ notions. It won’t be easy to do. I do think, however, I may see things in a different light. So, we’ll see …. I guess you can teach dogs new tricks!  ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 08, 2006, 07:22:45 pm
Welcome to the club, Diane!  :D :D :D Glad to have your agreement, both on its existence and that it's not damaging to the story. And I'm like you -- I never thought it could possibly be there, until I saw it.

You're right, I think you can keep going and going and finding out more and more things -- about the movie and about ourselves. I like your idea of trying to watch with no preconceptions.  :o :)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 08, 2006, 08:00:37 pm
Welcome to the club, Diane!  :D :D :D Glad to have your agreement, both on its existence and that it's not damaging to the story. And I'm like you -- I never thought it could possibly be there, until I saw it.

You're right, I think you can keep going and going and finding out more and more things -- about the movie and about ourselves. I like your idea of trying to watch with no preconceptions.  :o :)

I'll let you know if I see something else ... who knows?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 10, 2006, 03:24:01 pm
On the special edition DVD, isabelle mentioned that it was announced in France that it would be released in mid-July. I'll follow up with her.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: stevenedel on July 10, 2006, 03:55:03 pm
Welcome to the club, Diane!  :D :D :D Glad to have your agreement, both on its existence and that it's not damaging to the story. And I'm like you -- I never thought it could possibly be there, until I saw it.

You're right, I think you can keep going and going and finding out more and more things -- about the movie and about ourselves. I like your idea of trying to watch with no preconceptions.  :o :)

I was thrilled to discover this hidden line, which, now I know where it is, seems so loud and clear I cannot imagine anyone missing it. I also find it intensely moving, as well as apt - it moves the emotional apex of the film from the very end back to the purgatory of the Twist ranch, turning the subsequent scenes into a wistful epilogue. IMHO this results in a more balanced whole. The story effectively ends with the scene of Ennis driving away from Lightning Flat, which is the mirror image of the opening scene. It doesn't seem right that anything dramatically crucial should occur after that, and now it doesn't, - what the epilogue does bring is a glimmer of hope: Ennis has learned something from his experience.

I do think it is a bit harsh on Ennis to assume that, even in that private, intensely emotional moment, he would not be able to say these words. He IS, definitely, a loving man - only not very talented at expressing it.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 10, 2006, 03:59:22 pm
Hey Diane - I am SOOOOO glad you finally heard the "I Love You".

What I, myself, have not YET heard is the "fuck.......me" apparently uttered by Jack in TS1?  Is that correct?

Can someone tell me when he says this so I can listen for it?

Thanks,

Daphne7661
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 10, 2006, 04:10:50 pm
Hey Diane - I am SOOOOO glad you finally heard the "I Love You".

What I, myself, have not YET heard is the "fuck.......me" apparently uttered by Jack in TS1?  Is that correct?

Can someone tell me when he says this so I can listen for it?

Thanks,

Daphne7661

HOLY COW!  :o I haven't heard about that  one! Lordy, lordy! Whew! Another reason to watch TS1, I guess!  ::)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 10, 2006, 04:26:43 pm
I was thrilled to discover this hidden line, which, now I know where it is, seems so loud and clear I cannot imagine anyone missing it. I also find it intensely moving, as well as apt - it moves the emotional apex of the film from the very end back to the purgatory of the Twist ranch, turning the subsequent scenes into a wistful epilogue. IMHO this results in a more balanced whole. The story effectively ends with the scene of Ennis driving away from Lightning Flat, which is the mirror image of the opening scene. It doesn't seem right that anything dramatically crucial should occur after that, and now it doesn't, - what the epilogue does bring is a glimmer of hope: Ennis has learned something from his experience.

I do think it is a bit harsh on Ennis to assume that, even in that private, intensely emotional moment, he would not be able to say these words. He IS, definitely, a loving man - only not very talented at expressing it.

Really well put, stevenedel! That's why I don't think it detracts from the movie, either. When Ennis uses the word "love" with Alma Jr., it shows he has absorbed the lesson, and the expressions that cross his face when he looks out the window are very sad and touching. But the scene isn't as powerful as the closet scene, and the idea that he finally says the words to Jack in that moment, right away, without any hesitation -- but still, tragically too late -- is so so so heartbreaking. And if there's ever any doubt that Ennis is a loving man (not that there is), it vanishes then and there.

And the fact that it's so hard to discern -- that 99.99999999 ... (infinity) percent of moviegoers will never even know it's there -- has the effect of making it seem like it's still a private moment for Ennis.

I don't know that I'd downplay the final scene that much, though. I think the new location of the shirts and the "I swear," and even Ennis' decision to attend the wedding are all pretty dramatically crucial.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 10, 2006, 04:33:06 pm
Yeah, I definitely WANT to hear Jack say that one in TS1

I will certainly need those smelling salts if I hear it...

 :P
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: mvansand76 on July 13, 2006, 07:42:19 am
I have definitely heard the "Love you", I even tested it by letting my boyfriend watch the scene. I hadn't told him about the discussion surrounding this and asked him if Ennis said anything in this scene, so he watched the whole scene and he said "Yes, he says Love you when he has the shirts up against his face". Then I told him about the discussion and he said "Why wouldn't he say it?". Exactly.

And I have never heard any of those things in any of the tent scenes...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 13, 2006, 09:23:14 am
I love that nonchalant response, mvansand76. You: "Did you hear anything?" Him: "No. ... Well, nothing except him saying 'I love you' when he holds the shirts up to his face.'" Little does he know the intense controversy he's talking about!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on July 13, 2006, 04:57:16 pm
I have a description of where and when to find Jack's verbal ejaculations in one of my earlier posts.  You can use the find feature on my username to find it.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 13, 2006, 09:05:44 pm
I have a description of where and when to find Jack's verbal ejaculations in one of my earlier posts.  You can use the find feature on my username to find it.

Are you saying that the thread is called Jack's verbal ejaculations? I've gotta read that one!  ::)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: bbm_stitchbuffyfan on July 13, 2006, 11:00:50 pm
I still have to listen for this supposed "I love you."
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 13, 2006, 11:16:45 pm
I still have to listen for this supposed "I love you."

I was the biggest disbeliever. Read an earlier post and you will see where you can find it. I thought they were crazy! I was wrong. It's there!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: mvansand76 on July 14, 2006, 05:20:08 am
I love that nonchalant response, mvansand76. You: "Did you hear anything?" Him: "No. ... Well, nothing except him saying 'I love you' when he holds the shirts up to his face.'" Little does he know the intense controversy he's talking about!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yeah, he's very nonchalant in that way!  ;D
I thought it was a very good test!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 14, 2006, 09:16:52 am
Finally heard "f..k me" in the first tent scene. Just once so far.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 14, 2006, 12:00:48 pm
Ohhh, why can't I hear it?  I can hear everything else, but not that.   >:(

I DO hear one of them say "F___", but it sounds like Ennis....

At what point do we hear Jack say "F____ me"?

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 14, 2006, 01:04:21 pm
Ohhh, why can't I hear it?  I can hear everything else, but not that.   >:(

I DO hear one of them say "F___", but it sounds like Ennis....

At what point do we hear Jack say "F____ me"?


Right after Ennis enters him. Not very clear and in the middle of grunts but I did hear it, you might have to try a few times.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 14, 2006, 01:07:13 pm
OK, jp, I guess I'll have to watch again..   ;)

I'll listen for it at that point.

Thanks!!!

 :D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 14, 2006, 01:57:50 pm
Right after Ennis enters him. Not very clear and in the middle of grunts but I did hear it, you might have to try a few times.

Okay ... something new I have to check out! I'll listen and see if I can hear it. I have been unable to so far. Too bad Jack doesn't say .... "Gun's goin' off ..." like he did in the book! YEEHAW!  ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on July 15, 2006, 02:52:34 am
Hmm! Good one, goadra! I've always heard it as kind of, "mmmeeehhh, meeehhh, mmmmeehhh" or something like that (sorry, it's been a few weeks since I saw it). But given all we've talked about here, I like the possibility that he's actually saying words.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 15, 2006, 11:51:18 am
Anyone have any idea what (if anything) Ennis says as he punches the wall?

Well, I do think a lot of it is inarticulate.  But, I hear him say something like "god damn" in the middle of everything.  It sounds mostly like a mixture of sobbing and moaning.
 :(
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 16, 2006, 03:01:31 pm
Okay, I clearly heard him saying, "Muck me."  8)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 16, 2006, 07:12:37 pm
Ohhh, why can't I hear it?  I can hear everything else, but not that.   >:(

I DO hear one of them say "F___", but it sounds like Ennis....

At what point do we hear Jack say "F____ me"?

I have listened and watched very closely. The only place that I think I hear it is when Ennis first enters him ... then there are a couple of groans. Jack's face goes to the camera and it looks like he says it there. Can't be sure. It all happens a bit too fast.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 20, 2006, 11:48:25 am
I think I finally heard it..  The "Fuck.....Me" by Jack in TS1.

I have to say, however, that had I not been intently looking and listening for it, I would NEVER have noticed...

But Jack is such a beautiful soul that even with him saying those rather crass words, he is absolutely sexy and sensual in that scene.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on July 20, 2006, 05:04:17 pm
But Jack is such a beautiful soul that even with him saying those rather crass words, he is absolutely sexy and sensual in that scene.

He doesn't say much there, but he gets his point across.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: JfT on July 20, 2006, 05:51:50 pm
Damn, this thread is interesting and confusing.
Interesting for obvious reasons.
Confusing because of Jack supposedly saying " Fuck me". Why would such a line be permitted if "Gun's goin' off" was not?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Tristann on July 23, 2006, 11:21:08 am
Guess I'll throw my 2 cents worth in as well. I've only seen the movie 2 times as it has just been released on DVD for hire this past week in South Africa. Unlike many others I therefore haven't seen the scenes countless times - I would just like to mention some initial thoughts.

The scene in the tent (first contact) comes across as an accurate depiction of what many may experience as first time, raw gay sex. Jack's attraction to Ennis seems apparent from their very first encounter - they way he leans on the pick-up, staring at Ennis and his later words of it being a pleasure to meet Ennis Del Mar all suggested to me that he liked what he saw. Ennis had gone through the bear ordeal the afternoon before the tent scene - which must've got his adrenalin pumping. Throw in some whiskey and you have Ennis reacting in a way that he perhaps wouldn't normally. What I am getting at is that I don't really care what was said in the tent. This was a moment where the pent-up feelings came flooding out in a physical, raw way. For Ennis, something which he might not have understood at the time but felt an overwhelming urge to do. Jack, on the other hand might have had a real understanding of what he was doing and from his expression the next morning, perhaps experiencing it not only as a physical thing but emotionally as well. The scene is raw, authentic, and in my mind speaks much louder than any (suspected) words uttered.

So, Ennis finds the two shirts and some say he mutters "I love you". Again, I'm not too sure whether he does or not. When you love somebody, material objects that belong to that person take on a life of it's own - you know, the jersey/t-shirt/cap that makes your heart twinge in a weird, special kind of way... Ennis had just found the two shirts. He saw how the one sleeve was tucked into the other one almost like skin on skin. In my mind the realisation of just how much Jack loved him must've overwhelmed him. Bringing the shirt(s) close to his nose must've released an explosion of so many things in his mind. The realisation that he loved Jack so immensely and that Jack loved him so much that he kept their shirts this way, the realisation that he'll never see Jack again. Regret. Pain. Loss. Love.
The breath that punces itself out of his body at that moment represents for me a physical manifestation of a heart and mind going through so many emotions one can barely phathom its magnitude.

In the last scene the shirts have changed places. It is now Ennis' shirt that lies on the outside. Almost as if he now finally understood and accepted his love for Jack. Like he embraced their bond for the remainder of his life. Is this action of Ennis not perhaps the "I love you" we so desperately wanted him to say...?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on July 28, 2006, 12:04:54 am
Ennis does not say "I love you"...what you hear is muffled sobs, what you see is a lip quiver caused when one is on the verge of tears and inhales sharpley.  Nothing more...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 28, 2006, 12:32:37 am
Ennis does not say "I love you"...what you hear is muffled sobs, what you see is a lip quiver caused when one is on the verge of tears and inhales sharpley.  Nothing more...

Just as he is exhaling before the scene change he DOES say "I love you". You can see it as well.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 28, 2006, 09:36:02 am
Ennis does not say "I love you"...what you hear is muffled sobs, what you see is a lip quiver caused when one is on the verge of tears and inhales sharpley.  Nothing more...

Just as he is exhaling before the scene change he DOES say "I love you". You can see it as well.

You all know I was the biggest disbeliever. I admit when I’m wrong …. you can hear the “I love you”. It is extremely subtle and it takes nothing away from the poignancy of the moment. 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on July 28, 2006, 05:06:56 pm
Sorry to disillusion the last 2 posters, but there is no verbal communication of any sort in the scene from the time Ennis leaves the kitchen until he returns to the kitchen.  The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange in quotes, and audible sound, such as horse neighs and bird caws, in parenthesis.  Ennis is struck with emotion at finding these shirts, and as he gets his first whif of the shirt, he inhales (we hear it), then brings it closer and at the same time squeezes the sleeve with the blood.  At that moment he takes 3 quick breaths, as one does in a mild sobbing attack, and as his emotion takes full control, his lip shows a slight quiver. These are normal, but uncontrolled facial movements of anyone in the early throes of expressing the emotion of grief.

I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear, and also because of the power of suggestion.  Because this move uses a rural western dialect, with sobbing, chocking up, tears, etc., you fill in the blanks, so to speak.  Unfortunately, there are no blanks here; no "I love you"...
     
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 28, 2006, 05:21:19 pm
Have you ever listened to the movie on a computer with earphones? Just wondering... 8)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 28, 2006, 05:28:48 pm
Sorry to disillusion the last 2 posters, but there is no verbal communication of any sort in the scene from the time Ennis leaves the kitchen until he returns to the kitchen.  The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange in quotes, and audible sound, such as horse neighs and bird caws, in parenthesis.  Ennis is struck with emotion at finding these shirts, and as he gets his first whif of the shirt, he inhales (we hear it), then brings it closer and at the same time squeezes the sleeve with the blood.  At that moment he takes 3 quick breaths, as one does in a mild sobbing attack, and as his emotion takes full control, his lip shows a slight quiver. These are normal, but uncontrolled facial movements of anyone in the early throes of expressing the emotion of grief.

I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear, and also because of the power of suggestion.  Because this move uses a rural western dialect, with sobbing, chocking up, tears, etc., you fill in the blanks, so to speak.  Unfortunately, there are no blanks here; no "I love you"...
     
Sorry it's clearly there and can be heard as well as seen. Subtitle versons are often translated incorrectly. What is also there in SNIT is Jack saying "c'm  here before "s 'alright"
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 28, 2006, 08:09:30 pm
Sorry to disillusion the last 2 posters, but there is no verbal communication of any sort in the scene from the time Ennis leaves the kitchen until he returns to the kitchen.  The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange in quotes, and audible sound, such as horse neighs and bird caws, in parenthesis.  Ennis is struck with emotion at finding these shirts, and as he gets his first whif of the shirt, he inhales (we hear it), then brings it closer and at the same time squeezes the sleeve with the blood.  At that moment he takes 3 quick breaths, as one does in a mild sobbing attack, and as his emotion takes full control, his lip shows a slight quiver. These are normal, but uncontrolled facial movements of anyone in the early throes of expressing the emotion of grief.

I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear, and also because of the power of suggestion.  Because this move uses a rural western dialect, with sobbing, chocking up, tears, etc., you fill in the blanks, so to speak.  Unfortunately, there are no blanks here; no "I love you"... 

I tell you ... I was as skeptical as you and I thought everyone was crazy. I also used the subtitles, but found that didn't work, either. (Think about when they are riding horses, right before the divorce scene ... the subtitles say: "both chattering". If you listen, Jack says, "I'd love to rope a coyote" .... I am 100% sure he says that).

Front Ranger suggested using headphones. I have done this numerous times and, I promise you, there is so much more you can hear and catch. When I was told where and when to listen, I still thought ... "no human way .... these guys are hearing things". Then I heard it and I said, "I'll be darn! Crap! I'll have to admit I am wrong!" :laugh:

Of course, this is one of those issues right along with TS2: is it ...?
Jack: "It's all right ...."
Ennis: "I'm sorry."
Jack: "It's all right .."
(which, IMO, is what is said ... but whoa! Is that a debate!)

The subtitles say ...
Jack: "I'm sorry."
Ennis: "It's all right ..."
Jack: "It's all right ..."
(which makes no sense to me ....)

And then there are others who say Ennis says nothing. I could go on and on.

Ultimately, I have come to the place where I have realized that my opinion is my opinion. If it works for me, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, ya know!?  ;)




Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 29, 2006, 12:13:19 am
Of course, this is one of those issues right along with TS2: is it ...?
Jack: "It's all right ...."
Ennis: "I'm sorry."
Jack: "It's all right .."
(which, IMO, is what is said ... but whoa! Is that a debate!)

The subtitles say ...
Jack: "I'm sorry."
Ennis: "It's all right ..."
Jack: "It's all right ..."
(which makes no sense to me ....)

And then there are others who say Ennis says nothing. I could go on and on.

Ultimately, I have come to the place where I have realized that my opinion is my opinion. If it works for me, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, ya know!?  ;)

Hey Diane,

I am glad you continued to listen for the "I Love You" in the shirt/closet scene.

Also, I just want to say that I stand by my original post of what is said in TS2.  Basically, Ennis doesn't say anything.  It's all Jack.

Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him.  He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands.  This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right.  It's all right.  Lie Back.  C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene.  I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all.  There are many other parts where they are wrong.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on July 29, 2006, 12:55:47 am
There's no convincing those of you who think you hear something that isn 't there!  I am asking a friend of mine who works in analyzing  tapes for the police in a major mid-west city to look into it, and I guarantee you we will  discover nothing is said by Ennis.  To those of you who are positive he says "I love you" try to obtain the actual script??

Since one of you claims "those 3 words are pivitol to the story", don't you think Ms Proulx would have written it into the story?  She didn't because it doesn't happen.  That's the last I have to say on this subject.  Believe what you will! 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 29, 2006, 01:42:02 am
Hey Diane,

I am glad you continued to listen for the "I Love You" in the shirt/closet scene.

Also, I just want to say that I stand by my original post of what is said in TS2.  Basically, Ennis doesn't say anything.  It's all Jack.

Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him.  He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands.  This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right.  It's all right.  Lie Back.  C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene.  I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all.  There are many other parts where they are wrong.


What I here after "c' mon" is "s 'alright" three times. It does look like Ennis says "Oh god" when he is on his back but you can't hear it. None of this is pivotial to the story, just icing on the cake.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 29, 2006, 06:23:38 pm
What I here after "c' mon" is "s 'alright" three times. It do look like Ennis says "Oh god" when he is on his back but you can't here it.None of this is pivotial to the story, just icing on the cake.

Agreed. I just have to laugh. You put ten different people in a room. Each person hears ten different things and interprets the same scene in ten different ways. Personally, I find that incredibly humorous and enormously fun! Shoot, if we all believed and heard the same thing, there wouldn't even be a BetterMost forum!  ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Marge_Innavera on July 30, 2006, 08:59:08 am
Of course, this is one of those issues right along with TS2: is it ...?
Jack: "It's all right ...."
Ennis: "I'm sorry."
Jack: "It's all right .."
(which, IMO, is what is said ... but whoa! Is that a debate!)

When the movie was in the theatres, I was certain that Ennis didn't say anything. But the very first time I saw the DVD, Ennis saying "I'm sorry" was so clear it was startling.

And it isn't all that surprising that his lips don't move. One of the flaws of the movie is the editing, which wasn't helped by having to change editors during the process.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on July 30, 2006, 03:07:38 pm
Regarding Marge's  comment about editing:  that's been the main problem with the movie from the beginning.  Somewhere in one of these postings, it is mentioned that Lee's attention to detail was impeccable.  I don't know anything about Lee so I will go along with that, except, all the errors that occur...Alma, Jr. mike wire visible, wrong model truck for the year, change of hands during Jack's bull ride, log disappearance when Agurrie rides up to Jack, etc, etc.  In the scene where Ennis comments that his dad throught all rodeo cowboys were fuckups, Jack replies "The hell they are" and jumps up to do his bull-ride imitation with the whiskey bottle in his left hand.  Camera shift to Ennis, then back to Jack who now has his hat in the same hand (the bottle is still there) and he falls into whatever it is that clatters, and the camera is back to Ennis who is laughing and comments that maybe his dad was right.  When the camera goes back to Jack his hat is rolling on the ground directly next to his head..as if it had just fallen off his head...and the hand, still holding the whiskey bottle, is down around his waist area.  Obviously, this scene is a compilation of several takes, BUT, editing is seriously flawed.  Is this the fault of editors who pieced it together, or the fault of Lee for not paying attention to these errors and correcting them.  I believe I read that there were something like 125 "mistakes" in the movie. That being the case, I cannot agree with Lee's attention to detail as "impeccable".

Regarding the comment that Ennis's lips didn't move when he said "I'm sorry":   this is attributed to the fact that Ennis mutters most of the time, barely moving his lips. But most probably, in an intimate situation such as tis one, full facial muscle control is not usually employed.  His physical closeness to Jack requires low volumn, therefore, little lip movement.  Do your best imitation of Ennis and say "I'm sorry" and I think you'll see what I mean.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 30, 2006, 03:30:23 pm
Regarding Marge's  comment about editing:  that's been the main problem with the movie from the beginning.  Somewhere in one of these postings, it is mentioned that Lee's attention to detail was impeccable.  I don't know anything about Lee so I will go along with that, except, all the errors that occur...Alma, Jr. mike wire visible, wrong model truck for the year, change of hands during Jack's bull ride, log disappearance when Agurrie rides up to Jack, etc, etc.  In the scene where Ennis comments that his dad throught all rodeo cowboys were fuckups, Jack replies "The hell they are" and jumps up to do his bull-ride imitation with the whiskey bottle in his left hand.  Camera shift to Ennis, then back to Jack who now has his hat in the same hand (the bottle is still there) and he falls into whatever it is that clatters, and the camera is back to Ennis who is laughing and comments that maybe his dad was right.  When the camera goes back to Jack his hat is rolling on the ground directly next to his head..as if it had just fallen off his head...and the hand, still holding the whiskey bottle, is down around his waist area.  Obviously, this scene is a compilation of several takes, BUT, editing is seriously flawed.  Is this the fault of editors who pieced it together, or the fault of Lee for not paying attention to these errors and correcting them.  I believe I read that there were something like 125 "mistakes" in the movie. That being the case, I cannot agree with Lee's attention to detail as "impeccable".

Regarding the comment that Ennis's lips didn't move when he said "I'm sorry":   this is attributed to the fact that Ennis mutters most of the time, barely moving his lips. But most probably, in an intimate situation such as tis one, full facial muscle control is not usually employed.  His physical closeness to Jack requires low volumn, therefore, little lip movement.  Do your best imitation of Ennis and say "I'm sorry" and I think you'll see what I mean.
The editing is choppy at some points but no worse than a lot of movies.

As for SNIT I see and hear Jack say "s'alright"  three times, it does sound a bit  like I'm sorry but sound the same each time.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on July 30, 2006, 04:46:16 pm
Obviously, this scene is a compilation of several takes, BUT, editing is seriously flawed.  Is this the fault of editors who pieced it together, or the fault of Lee for not paying attention to these errors and correcting them.  I believe I read that there were something like 125 "mistakes" in the movie. That being the case, I cannot agree with Lee's attention to detail as "impeccable".

It is these inconsistencies that we talk about in the “it ain’t right” thread. It just gives us a forum to have a little fun with the movie – especially since this film is so serious.

As for the editing …. humans do it, so there are always going to be flaws. I think the strength of Ang Lee’s films is his sense of composition and his love for the characters. IMO, this is one of the best films I have ever seen (and I have seen a lot … from all time periods). This film has changed my belief that “the best films were already made”.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on July 31, 2006, 12:54:07 am
Having watched BBM over 100 times now, I am quite familiar with Ennis' tightlipped delivery most of the time.

However, in TS2, the "I'm Sorry" is not Ennis' voice in any way, shape or form.  It is Jack's.

I think we all can agree that Jack's and Ennis' voices are quite distinct in their own right.  Even in intimate whispers....
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: nic on July 31, 2006, 11:44:08 am
I think we all can agree that Jack's and Ennis' voices are quite distinct in their own right.  Even in intimate whispers....

I don't know about that Daphne - I think I could do with more of them whispering intimately to each other, just to check,  and the accompanyign visuals wouldn't hurt either ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Marge_Innavera on August 01, 2006, 09:30:42 am
Regarding the comment that Ennis's lips didn't move when he said "I'm sorry":   this is attributed to the fact that Ennis mutters most of the time, barely moving his lips. But most probably, in an intimate situation such as tis one, full facial muscle control is not usually employed.  His physical closeness to Jack requires low volumn, therefore, little lip movement.  Do your best imitation of Ennis and say "I'm sorry" and I think you'll see what I mean.

That's right!  Tried it and " 'm sorry" takes very little lip movement when you're whispering it.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 01, 2006, 09:39:54 am
Nope, sorry folks.  I tried like my life depended on it.  I sat close to the speaker (I have a very good digital sound system) with the volume up so high that the incidental sounds (e.g. clinking, rustling, breathing) were on the verge of being painful.  Nadda!  I heard no "f*ck me" in TS1, and although Ennis' mouth does move in the shirts scene I heard no "I love you", just breathing.  But "s'alright" is clear as day, and Jack's mouth movements seemed perfectly synchronised to these sounds to me.

Sorry if the rest has already been asked/said, the threads a little long to take it all in and I'm tired...

I'm not saying that y'all crazy or anything, but does this realistically seem like something that Jack would say, ever?  Is it just as reasonable that you're hearing something that sounds like "F*ck Me", but could just as easily be soundtrack distortions, mastering errors and other related sound imperfections???  Even the Ennis "I love you" line, these just don't seem to fit the characters.

My verdict: the power of belief and/or suggestion, coupled with dvd/video mastering imperfections, and "excessive" familiarity (understanding) of the characters' thoughts and motivations, have lead to an unintended (by the film makers) interpretation.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 01, 2006, 10:05:24 am
Nope, sorry folks.  I tried like my life depended on it.  I sat close to the speaker (I have a very good digital sound system) with the volume up so high that the incidental sounds (e.g. clinking, rustling, breathing) were on the verge of being painful.  Nadda!  I heard no "f*ck me" in TS1, and although Ennis' mouth does move in the shirts scene I heard no "I love you", just breathing.  But "s'alright" is clear as day, and Jack's mouth movements seemed perfectly synchronised to these sounds to me.

Sorry if the rest has already been asked/said, the threads a little long to take it all in and I'm tired...

I'm not saying that y'all crazy or anything, but does this realistically seem like something that Jack would say, ever?  Is it just as reasonable that you're hearing something that sounds like "F*ck Me", but could just as easily be soundtrack distortions, mastering errors and other related sound imperfections???  Even the Ennis "I love you" line, these just don't seem to fit the characters.

My verdict: the power of belief and/or suggestion, coupled with dvd/video mastering imperfections, and "excessive" familiarity (understanding) of the characters' thoughts and motivations, have lead to an unintended (by the film makers) interpretation.

I think that is a valid point. What I would like, however, is to ask Jake and Heath to give the answers to these questions. Then we could settle it once and for all. However, it wouldn't be as much fun as debating about it.  ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on August 01, 2006, 10:18:49 am
Some will hear the "I Love You" (closet scene) - Some will not.
Some will hear the "Oh Jack" (closet scene) - Some will not.
Some will hear the "F _ _ _ Me" (TS1) - Some will not.

I hear them all, and I don't mean to say that some don't, so I guess that leaves them up to eternal debate.

However, I am POSITIVE of who says "I'm Sorry" in TS2, and it is Jack!!  In fact, Ennis doesn't say anything in this scene.  Not one word.

I hope the poster above who said he/she was going to have the DVD sound analyzed does.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 01, 2006, 10:34:06 am
Somewhere in one of these postings, it is mentioned that Lee's attention to detail was impeccable.  I don't know anything about Lee so I will go along with that, except, all the errors that occur...

I agree that some editing details are less than impeccable. Maybe that has to do with the change of editors; others have suggested that on a lower-budget film it's too costly to go back and fix mistakes like thsse. There are a few other minor mistakes I wish weren't there (such as Ennis' Aussie accent in the grocery store scene).

However, when people talk about Lee's attention to detail, they're generally referring to his meticulous planning of metaphors and symbolism and echoed scenes and color patterns and etc. etc. (not all of which are Lee's doing -- some go back to the screenplay and story; others might hyave come from costume or set designers). For example, to establish Jack as being symbolized by wind (sometimes in the form of fans) and then to sprinkle examples throughout the movie, culminating in a huge fan propped between Alma and Ennis in the last scene -- that's attention to detail.

Another example of Lee's attention to detail, IMO, is his inclusion of extremely subtle bits of action or dialogue that are so quick or so peripheral that many people don't notice them even after numerous viewings. Such as Jack and Ennis holding hands during TS1 -- a detail that, though very subtle, few people here would dispute.

And, perhaps, the "fuck me" and "I love you."

The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange

Quote
  To those of you who are positive he says "I love you" try to obtain the actual script??

Quote
Since one of you claims "those 3 words are pivitol to the story", don't you think Ms Proulx would have written it into the story?

I wouldn't rely on subtitles, the screenplay or Annie Proulx's story to prove or disprove the existence of "I love you." The subtitle writers, as Diane points out here and others have noted in other threads, are incredibly fallible. The "I love you" could have been -- in fact, much more likely was -- conceived during filming, post-screenplay. And I don't remember who, if anyone, claimed the three words are pivotal, but they're not (though if they were, they certainly wouldn't be the only pivotal things in the movie that don't exist in the story, such as the entire character of Cassie).

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I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear,


My verdict: the power of belief and/or suggestion

The "I love you" is definitely not something I believed in or wanted to hear -- until I did. I had seen references to it before but always thought they sounded stupid, couldn't imagine Ennis saying such a thing, and never even looked for it. Then one day, I was watching with the volume turned up especially high because I was listening for something else in a different scene. When I got to the closet scene, I was just going along, not looking for anything new ... and then suddenly I saw it and just about fell off the couch. Now I see it every time.

Is it absolutely clear beyond a shadow of doubt that he is saying "I love you"? No. He moves his lips three times. He makes three sounds. You can't tell exactly what the words are, or even for sure that they are words. So yeah, he could possibly be saying "Here's my shirt!" or "These need washing!" or, as 2robots4u suggests, he could be sobbing with lips quivering. Because it's so obscure, you have to just figure out for yourself what fits the audio and visual and what seems most probable, and when I apply those tests I see him saying "I love you."

The presence of "I love you" does not change anything about the meaning of the movie, so if you don't see it or don't want to see it, that's fine. Personally, I have come to love it, but to me it is, like jpwagoneer says, the icing on the cake. It deepens my sadness and sympathy for Ennis. It is beautiful and tragic and poignant. But there's plenty of beauty and tragedy and poignancy there already, so the movie is just fine without it (obviously).

Now, as for the "fuck me," I've never heard it. But based on my "I love you" experience and the testimonials I've seen on this thread, I'm completely open to the possibility that it's there.

And as for "sorry" "s'alright" I go back and forth (though tend to believe it's all Jack saying "s'alright). I think that unless we hear from Jake or Heath or Ang, there will never be certainty or a full concensus.
Title: Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
Post by: Gustavo on August 01, 2006, 10:37:11 am
I'm still in the camp of hearing the "I'm sorry" out of Ennis during the second tent scene.  I truly do hear it (I always heard it in the theatres and I hear it on my DVD too).  But, I truly want to hear it... so maybe my judgment is skewed.


Now, I'm curious too. Why Jack said "I'm sorry"? I realize Jack's mouth didn't move when he spoken these words. Maybe the director put this dialogue before edited the scene.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: nakymaton on August 01, 2006, 10:53:44 am
I'm not saying that y'all crazy or anything, but does this realistically seem like something that Jack would say, ever?  Is it just as reasonable that you're hearing something that sounds like "F*ck Me", but could just as easily be soundtrack distortions, mastering errors and other related sound imperfections???  Even the Ennis "I love you" line, these just don't seem to fit the characters.

I don't hear them, either, but these are basically my reasons: I don't think that the lines are things that either one of the characters would say. The power of DISbelief, perhaps.

If other people hear them, that's fine. (Just don't ever watch the movie with me and yell them along at the screen. ;D Now THAT would ruin the movie for me.)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on August 01, 2006, 11:11:35 am
Not to change the subject but...I was listening to the soundtrack this morning, and I heard Emmylou Harris singing in "A Love that Will Never Grow Old," "just lay back in my arms for one more night." It reminded me of Jack whispering, "Lay back" during TS2. In fact, that song has the words Jack would sing if he were another person, just as "He Was a Friend of Mine" has the words Ennis would sing if he were another person.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 01, 2006, 11:32:51 am
Not to change the subject but...I was listening to the soundtrack this morning, and I heard Emmylou Harris singing in "A Love that Will Never Grow Old," "just lay back in my arms for one more night." It reminded me of Jack whispering, "Lay back" during TS2. In fact, that song has the words Jack would sing if he were another person, just as "He Was a Friend of Mine" has the words Ennis would sing if he were another person.

That's why I love that particular song! To me, it exemplifies everything Jack feels. Same with, “I Don’t Want to Say Goodbye.” Bernie Taupin knows how to write lyrics!!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 01, 2006, 06:06:32 pm
Ok, I respect the convictions of the people on this thread.  I'm not trying to cast dispersions here, ruin anyone's fun, or ask people to see it my way.  Clearly, people are hearing things with such clarity that they are incredulous at the thought of someone else not hearing it.  I am happy to concede the possibility, but right now I am curious about the phenomenon itself?

First of all, the "Sorry / S'Alright" debate started almost immediately after we all saw the film for the first time.  I remember not hearing it initially, then being told about it and checking it in the cinema the next time(s) to conclude that you may or may not hear it.  I have now resolved this within myself and side on the "S'Alright" side, but I'm not locked into any one opinion on it.  The point is, something can be heard and just about everyone does.

But this "I love you" and "F*ck me" stuff seems to have only happened over the last couple of days or weeks.  How is this possible?  Between us on this board, we must have seen BBM thousands of times?  Something may be heard in these scenes, but for those who are strongly convinced that these words are there, doesn't it seem suspicious to you that you had to listen to the scenes over and over for nothing to become a maybe, then a probability, before finally a conviction was reached?  How do you explain your own seemingly variable belief?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 01, 2006, 06:59:37 pm
for those who are strongly convinced that these words are there, doesn't it seem suspicious to you that you had to listen to the scenes over and over for nothing to become a maybe, then a probability, before finally a conviction was reached?  How do you explain your own seemingly variable belief?

But that's not at all how it worked for me (see my post above). Without being too repetitive, I first heard about the "I love you" back on imdb, so we're talking sometime in February or March. I dismissed it as complete baloney. I didn't think about it again or see any discussion of it until I noticed it for myself, in the way I described above. So my belief wasn't variable, it went from absolute disbelief to pretty much full belief in the two seconds that I saw it onscreen (when I say "pretty much full belief," I'm acknowledging that it's possible to interpret those lip-movements and sounds as being something other than "I love you"-- sobs, perhaps -- and also that it took me a couple more viewings to make sure I wasn't completely imagining things). It's not a conclusion I reached after talking to people here, it's something I discovered for myself when least expecting it.

Immediately after noticing it, I started this thread, on June 6. Other people posted who had already noticed it. There have since been a couple of people who didn't see it at first but, after being told exactly when and where and how to look, watched the movie again and reported later that they did.

I'd compare it to the hand-holding. I never noticed it until someone pointed it out. Then I went back and watched TS1 again and saw it. Many other people have asked where and when to look for it (it's dark and subtle and near the edge of the screen), but once they do they see it, too.

Or, as I said in a post a while back, I'd compare it to the S-E-X in "The Lion King" movie. Sorry to repeat this story, but it was amazing and has relevance here. I read when it first came out in the '90s that Christian groups were protesting there's a point in the movie where you could see those letters spelled out in dust. I assumed that was ridiculous imaginations-run-wild stuff and forgot all about it. Ten years later, I had small children who owned the video. so I wound up watching it, conservatively estimating, 30 times (not always concentrating intently). One day, after maybe seeing it about 15 times already, I happened to glance at the screen and damn if it wasn't right there: S E X, spelled out in dust, for about half a second. And from then on it was clear as day, once I knew when and where to look.

That's why I say that, though I haven't heard the "fuck me" myself, I'm open to the possibility that it's there.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 01, 2006, 07:19:20 pm
OK, I got curious about just how many people believe one way or the other about some of these things. So I posted a poll about it. You can find it here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3633.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3633.0)

I don't mean to discourage continued discussion on this thread, though. Maybe we can keep that thread to a straightforward "have you seen it or not" and we can continue discussion here about just how wild an imagination you have to have to believe they exist.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 02, 2006, 04:05:57 am
But that's not at all how it worked for me (see my post above). Without being too repetitive, I first heard about the "I love you" back on imdb, so we're talking sometime in February or March. I dismissed it as complete baloney. I didn't think about it again or see any discussion of it until I noticed it for myself, in the way I described above. So my belief wasn't variable, it went from absolute disbelief to pretty much full belief in the two seconds that I saw it onscreen (when I say "pretty much full belief," I'm acknowledging that it's possible to interpret those lip-movements and sounds as being something other than "I love you"-- sobs, perhaps -- and also that it took me a couple more viewings to make sure I wasn't completely imagining things). It's not a conclusion I reached after talking to people here, it's something I discovered for myself when least expecting it.

*chuckles*  Somehow Katherine, I'm hearing you in Tweetie-Bird-mode saying: I did... I did hear him say "I love you"! :laugh:  Ok, ok, because I trust you implicitly, I will give this another go and get some other people to listen on my system.  I'm still sceptical, but that's ok because sceptics ask questions and try to understand as opposed to cynics who cover their ears and say "la la la - I'm not hearing you"!

Quote
I'd compare it to the hand-holding. I never noticed it until someone pointed it out. Then I went back and watched TS1 again and saw it. Many other people have asked where and when to look for it (it's dark and subtle and near the edge of the screen), but once they do they see it, too.

Unfortunately I can't see this one, although I do believe you.  It's just that in Australia they haven't released a 4:3 version (nor are they likely to).

Quote
Or, as I said in a post a while back, I'd compare it to the S-E-X in "The Lion King" movie. Sorry to repeat this story, but it was amazing and has relevance here. I read when it first came out in the '90s that Christian groups were protesting there's a point in the movie where you could see those letters spelled out in dust. I assumed that was ridiculous imaginations-run-wild stuff and forgot all about it. Ten years later, I had small children who owned the video. so I wound up watching it, conservatively estimating, 30 times (not always concentrating intently). One day, after maybe seeing it about 15 times already, I happened to glance at the screen and damn if it wasn't right there: S E X, spelled out in dust, for about half a second. And from then on it was clear as day, once I knew when and where to look.

I have seen the S-E-X in Lion King though.  I remember seeing some screen shots a few years back, I'll see if I can locate them.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: David on August 02, 2006, 08:02:18 am
Okay, I clearly heard him saying, "Muck me."  8)

Indeed!    As I was trying to say before, I heard this and wasn't even listening for it.

Nobody had ever mentioned it online, so the thought wasn't planted in my head.   I was startled to hear it.   But I dismissed it as my imagination, i didnt even replay these the scene to hear it again.   I just figured I was crazy.  LOL

But to have had several people report that they heard it cannot be a coincidence.    It is so subtle it just flows and goes by unoticed.

We have always speculated there were different quality DVDs out there.  Ever since the DVD came out there have been people arguing over how some DVDs are too dark compared to others.  Perhaps now we may have some with better audio than others?

As I said,  I wasn't looking for it and I heard it.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2006, 09:40:58 am
I will give this another go and get some other people to listen on my system.

OK. It still may or may not work. Systems vary, even DVDs -- as David points out -- may vary. And most of all, interpretations of a VERY ambiguous moment vary. Keep in mind that "I love you" will NEVER be clear as a bell, not even to me. It won't even be clear as the S-E-X in Lion King (though I'm glad to hear you saw that one!). So actually I don't insist ala Tweety -- I admit there's at least a 5 or 10 percent chance he's sobbing or just twitching or something.

Even 2robots4u's friend who analyzes tapes for the police force may not find it; it's certainly not clear enough to be admissible evidence in court. Now maybe those people who scrutinize Osama bin Laden's videos for clues as to his plans and whereabouts ... are any of them on this board?

Personally, I like mvansand76's story about having her boyfriend watch the scene without telling him what to look for, and then asking him afterward if he heard anything and her boyfriend casually replying something like, "Well, only him saying 'I love you' into the shirts ..."

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Unfortunately I can't see this one, although I do believe you.  It's just that in Australia they haven't released a 4:3 version (nor are they likely to).

If you're interested in seeing it, check out this YouTube video, "4 Nights in 20 Years." It's simply four scenes strung together: TS1 and 2, the Motel Siesta scene and their last night sitting together by the campfire. Watch the lower lefthand corner of the screen during TS1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTMBth4-lg&search=brokeback (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTMBth4-lg&search=brokeback)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Marge_Innavera on August 02, 2006, 02:59:53 pm
doesn't it seem suspicious to you that you had to listen to the scenes over and over for nothing to become a maybe, then a probability, before finally a conviction was reached?

Personally, I didn't have to listen to the scenes over and over; I heard the "I'm sorry" on the first DVD viewing. And "Jack's sweet plea"  ;D came as a complete surprise.

Quote
  How do you explain your own seemingly variable belief?

Either the bad sound editing or just whispered ad libs (by definition, not very loud) that were deliberately left in.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 03, 2006, 10:08:46 am
OK. It still may or may not work. Systems vary, even DVDs -- as David points out -- may vary. And most of all, interpretations of a VERY ambiguous moment vary. Keep in mind that "I love you" will NEVER be clear as a bell, not even to me. It won't even be clear as the S-E-X in Lion King (though I'm glad to hear you saw that one!). So actually I don't insist ala Tweety -- I admit there's at least a 5 or 10 percent chance he's sobbing or just twitching or something.

Hi Katherine, I'm afraid I didn't have much luck.  I did this as "scientifically" as I could.  A couple of people in the room, very high volume, and I played each scene without saying what was being looked for.  I asked if any vocalisations were heard and replayed each scene to give them a second chance.  We talked about it, and only then did I suggest "I love you" (etc).  Again, replay the scenes 2 or 3 times to give it the best chance of something being picked up.

Everyone seemed to be the most sure that there was definitely no "F*ck Me", we could only pick up what we presume were breathing, grunts (etc), their clothing moving, belt buckles, and the sounds associated with their changing postures.  We couldn't hear anything that sounded like words at all.

Skip to the "I love you" scene.  This was dismissed by the others quite quickly as non-existent, but I encouraged them to look and listen carefully because Ennis' mouth clearly moves as if to say several words just as he lifts the sleave of the shirts.  However, my sister pointed out that the clearest sound during that time was Ennis' breathing, and at the exact moment of mouth movement we could clearly hear an exhalation.  As far as the soundtrack that we were listening to is concerned, this eliminated the possibility of words (assuming that what we hear is the actual sound from the day of filming and there was no ADR work done).

Seemingly easier to hear was the "sorry" / "s'alright".  Much more debate was generated though with two camps forming.  The first heard one "sorry" followed by two "s'alrights", while the second that it was three "s'alrights" citing no mouth movements from Ennis as proof (given that it only makes sense for Ennis to say this).  But we've heard these arguments before, so it's not surprising that this group would be no different.  The possibility of "come 'ere" preceding this was accepted as possible although it was felt that it was more likely to be the sound of Jack's mouth opening in readiness to say whatever-it-is-that-he-says.

Ok, I've done my best, the group here were in agreement that it is only TS2 that there were definite words spoken, with some variation in what the actual words were.  Both TS1 and the shirts scene were both dismissed as having no words spoken, but enough incidental sounds (including grunts and breathing) to possibly sound like words, even though we couldn't make any out, at least on my sound system.
Sorry, I tried. ???
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 03, 2006, 10:48:10 am
Well, it sounds like you made a good effort, Chris. And your subjects' reactions seem to match the reactions of people on this board -- we all continue to disagree despite double or even triple-digit viewings.

Everyone seemed to be the most sure that there was definitely no "F*ck Me", we could only pick up what we presume were breathing, grunts (etc), their clothing moving, belt buckles, and the sounds associated with their changing postures.  We couldn't hear anything that sounded like words at all.

I pretty much agree with this. I listened yesterday on my computer with the volume cranked and the speakers pressed to my ears and couldn't hear anything beyond gasps or whatever. Some of those gasps COULD say "f*ck me" -- I can't absolutely rule that out -- but to my ears they could just as easily be gasps. There was nothing that makes them sound more like "f*ck me" than like anything else. And the fact that it seems slightly unlikely that he would say that pushes me a bit in the other direction.

Quote
Skip to the "I love you" scene.  This was dismissed by the others quite quickly as non-existent, but I encouraged them to look and listen carefully because Ennis' mouth clearly moves as if to say several words just as he lifts the sleave of the shirts.  However, my sister pointed out that the clearest sound during that time was Ennis' breathing, and at the exact moment of mouth movement we could clearly hear an exhalation.

I can certainly understand this reaction. But to my ears, the sound he makes when his mouth moves resembles words -- admittedly very indistinct ones. I don't hear him breathing at other times during the scene except maybe when he smells the shirts (admittedly, I haven't watched it lately). To me, those three one-syllable vocalizations stand out among other sounds he makes, implying that they are actual words, and are too short and close together to sound like exhalations.

On the likelihood scale, "I love you" sounds improbable at first, but actually far less so, once you get used to the idea, than "fuck me." Though the fact that people -- including me -- came to see/hear it who previously didn't even want to believe it was there is telling. As contrast, I've seen enough testimony on behalf of "fuck me" that I'm perfectly open to the idea, but still can't hear it. When I first noticed "I love you," I was scornful of the idea, yet heard it anyway.

But your experiment and your friends' experience are interesting. I think maybe this will just be one of those things that dfferent viewers will always see in different ways, no matter how many times they watch it. (Though I have seen people switch sides.)

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Seemingly easier to hear was the "sorry" / "s'alright".  Much more debate was generated though with two camps forming.  The first heard one "sorry" followed by two "s'alrights", while the second that it was three "s'alrights" citing no mouth movements from Ennis as proof (given that it only makes sense for Ennis to say this).  But we've heard these arguments before, so it's not surprising that this group would be no different.

This I can completely understand. I'm in both camps myself, my opinion changing from one viewing to the next. I also occasionally step into the "Ennis says 'sorry'" camp. It's true his lips don't move, but Jack's don't move much either, and it is possible to whisper that without moving your mouth. But that's partly wishful thinking on my part, because that would be my preferred scenario.

Anyway, thanks for conducting this experiment, Chris! Well done. And it sounds like you have very fun friends who are willing to take the time to play along.  :D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on August 03, 2006, 01:25:30 pm
I'm not really sure why, but I feel as though my explanation of why Jack would be the one saying "I'm Sorry" in TS2, is not getting its full credit.  It seems as though everyone is so busy trying to prove who said it, that they are closing their minds as to why (I believe) it was said in the first place.

Not to be duplicative, but I am posting here once again my reasons for believing it was Jack who said "I'm Sorry" in TS2.

I ask only that those of you who believe it was Ennis, and those of you who don't even hear it, will keep an open mind and consider my take on it upon your next viewing.

Thanks.


Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him.  He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands.  This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right.  It's all right.  Lie Back.  C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene.  I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all.  There are many other parts where they are wrong.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on August 03, 2006, 01:31:16 pm
Thank U for repeating that. I enjoyed reading it the first time, as well as now. I love the part about Ennis "leaning" into Jack. I've seen Heath do that in his on-screen kisses on several movies. He just closes his eyes and leans forward until contact with the other face is made. No pursing or anything. Now, Jake, that's another story. Even Heath said Jake was a good kisser.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 03, 2006, 01:44:14 pm
Daphne, I do give credit to your explanation. If Jack is the one saying sorry -- and if anyone says it, it's probably him -- that makes perfect sense. I'd just like to have Ennis be the one saying sorry, for being so brusque earlier.

He just closes his eyes and leans forward until contact with the other face is made.

LOL, Lee, perfect description. Jake may have a different approach, but this method would be fine by me!  ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on August 03, 2006, 02:20:43 pm
Now, Jake, that's another story. Even Heath said Jake was a good kisser.

Heath said Jake was a good kisser?  Wow!!!  I, myself, always thought Jake was a GREAT kisser, just by watching him, but, with Heath saying so himself, that's a good enough confirmation for me.

And thanks for the words of support on my TS2/I'm Sorry explanation....

I appreciate it.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 03, 2006, 02:50:36 pm
Now, Jake, that's another story. Even Heath said Jake was a good kisser.


LOL, Lee, perfect description. Jake may have a different approach, but this method would be fine by me!  ;)


Heath said Jake was a good kisser?  Wow!!!  I, myself, always thought Jake was a GREAT kisser, just by watching him, but, with Heath saying so himself, that's a good enough confirmation for me.

Mark this moment ... it may be the only time that we are all in 100% agreement!  ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 03, 2006, 06:19:38 pm
I also agree that this moment is a milestone, regarding who said what, etc., and I totally agree with Daphne's assessment of TS2.

Now, as to her comments about not trusting subtitles and how they are wrong:  I sat down last week to analyze the subtitles.  I closed every window and door in my condo to get as much silence as possible, set the DVD to play both sound and subtitles, and watch it, intently and uninterrupted, 2 complete times.  I compared what I heard to what I read, replaying often to insure I heard/saw correctly.  In the entire dialogue, I found only 3 instances where there wa a difference.

  1.  Spoken by Ennis:  Alma and me, we'll be gettin' married...
       Subtitle:              Alma and me, we're gonna git maried....

  2.  Spoken by Jack:  Friend, that's more words....
       Subtitle:            Man, that's more words...

  3.  Spoken by Alma:  Hey, Ennis.  You remember somebody, name of Jack?
       Subtitle:             Hey, Ennis.  You know somebody, name of Jack?

When subtitles offer info, such as lighter flicking, sheep bleating, crickets chirping, horses neighing, pan clattering, coughing, clearing throat, bird calling, mmn , grunts, laughing, wind whistling, belts clinking, heavy breathing, Jack moaning, Ennis grunting, gasping, crows cawing, flies buzzing, urinating (yes, even direction as to what Jack was doing), I find it hard to believe they would alter the actual spoken word.  Now, in translation from a foreign language to English, there will always be discrepancies because there are no literal translations, and paraphrasing is the option.  But in this movie, where so much attention to detail of the dialogue is offered, I cannot agree with Daphne.  I truly trust these subtitles.  My friend Lynn, who is deaf, said she enjoyed the movie so much more than other movies because of the detail that allowed her to experience in her head what I heard  on the screen (referring to the sounds of unseen things that we, the hearing, take for granted.)  She further commented that if those sounds had not been subtitle, she would have just been reading dialogue.   

 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 03, 2006, 06:25:44 pm
I'm not really sure why, but I feel as though my explanation of why Jack would be the one saying "I'm Sorry" in TS2, is not getting its full credit.  It seems as though everyone is so busy trying to prove who said it, that they are closing their minds as to why (I believe) it was said in the first place.

Um, ok , your logic for Jack saying sorry is fine, although I thought I was quoting the others in the room who made this point.  This topic is a veritable mind field of passions and perceptions don't you think?  Everyone can have slightly different ideas of what the characters are doing and saying, and the mind fills in the rest.  I guess that because the c'mere / sorry / s'alright debate has been going on for so long that it didn't occur to me to qualify the quote with an acknowledgement of this.  So this is me saying sorry! ;)

Like Katherine, I tend to be open to all possibilities without necessarily convinced of any of them.  When I listen to this scene I can hear where the c'mere, sorry, and s'alright's are, but I tend towards the conclusion that the c'mere sound is not really c'mere, but the sound that occurs when one opens their mouth in preparation to speak.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't c'mere.  As for who say sorry, assuming it is sorry, well who knows?  It could be argued that either of them say it for different reasons.

So credit where credit is due Daphne, for what it's worth. 8)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 03, 2006, 06:26:51 pm
Mark this moment ... it may be the only time that we are all in 100% agreement!  ;D

Uh-oh! I hate to spoil the sisterhood, but when I said "this method would be fine by me" I actually meant Heath's method. (Damn, I knew I should have gone back and phrased that differently.) (And not that I wouldn't be pretty happy with whatever Jake's method is.)

Well, at least the rest of you can celebrate your mutual agreement. And Diane, sooner or later you and I will agree on something ...

(Just kidding. I think we already do!  ;))
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 03, 2006, 06:38:22 pm
I find it hard to believe they would alter the actual spoken word. ...  I truly trust these subtitles.   

I haven't watched the subtitles, but it sounds like whoever did the work was very conscientious and thorough. I don't think they would have willfully misrepresented anything, and apparently they rarely got careless.

My distrust would lie only in the fact that, when it comes to some of those nearly indiscernible sounds, the subtitlers are as fallible as we are. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people on this board who have watched the movie more, and given it closer attention, than the subtitlers did. And yet even then, look at all the disagreement!

The subtitlers probably had access to a screenplay and maybe additional materials, but it seems quite possible that the dialogue we are talking about here, if it occurred, was improvised on the set and never put in writing. (If it were in the screenplay, seems like it would have been uttered more clearly.) Therefore, the subtitlers would have had to rely on their eyes and ears, same as we do. And they may have been scrupulous, but they weren't superhuman.

By the way, 2robots4you, has your police-analyst friend had a chance to check it out?


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 03, 2006, 07:53:05 pm
Not yet, latjoreme.  It may take a while as he will be doing it in "off" time.

Regarding your 3rd paragraph about subtitlers, you are correct.  I once dated a guy who worked in the film industry and had many behind-the-scenes tours of what actually goes on in the production, after the filming is complete. I bet a lot of you have often wondered why it takes 4-6 years for a film to finally hit the big screen.  Well, you wouldn't believe the work that is done.  Subtitlers sit in front of a screen where the film is visible, listening on headsets, watching for every little lip deviation from the actual text of what is suppose to be said.  Replay after replay, day after day, the same thing.  In English-to-English translations, lip coordination is VERY important if you want it to look and sound normal.  When improvisation does occur, and they cannot audibly discern the words or read the lips, they may actual go to the actor and ask.  But in most cases subtitling is being done years after the actor has moved on to another project and is not reachable; for whatever reason, they reach a stone wall, and then have to make an educated guess as to what happened, what the actor may have done, itentions of the actor, etc.  So, yes, they are not always correct.

I did notice in my research, and something I failed to mention in that vein, is that Ennis double-clutches words, such as "I", and adds "er", 'uhh", but these sounds are not in the subtitles.  But I still stand in favor of the subtitles in this film...
 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 03, 2006, 11:23:50 pm
When subtitles offer info, such as lighter flicking, sheep bleating, crickets chirping, horses neighing, pan clattering, coughing, clearing throat, bird calling, mmn , grunts, laughing, wind whistling, belts clinking, heavy breathing, Jack moaning, Ennis grunting, gasping, crows cawing, flies buzzing, urinating (yes, even direction as to what Jack was doing), I find it hard to believe they would alter the actual spoken word.  Now, in translation from a foreign language to English, there will always be discrepancies because there are no literal translations, and paraphrasing is the option.  But in this movie, where so much attention to detail of the dialogue is offered, I cannot agree with Daphne.  I truly trust these subtitles.  My friend Lynn, who is deaf, said she enjoyed the movie so much more than other movies because of the detail that allowed her to experience in her head what I heard  on the screen (referring to the sounds of unseen things that we, the hearing, take for granted.)  She further commented that if those sounds had not been subtitle, she would have just been reading dialogue.   

Hi 2robots4u, on reading this I must admit to my envy that the R1 version is so accurate.  A week or so ago I posted on another thread some initial thoughts about the recently released Australian R4 version in which I noticed some annoying flaws.  For the most part they are very good, in fact they pick up on some background dialog (e.g. the rodeo announcer) that would otherwise be missed or unclear.  I don't think we get all the incidentals that you do, urinating for example (not sure if that's good or bad).

However, there were a couple of times when it a word here or there was wrong, which I don't mind too much, but there was one in particular that confounds me as to how they got it so wrong.  It's when Jack and Ennis come down from the mountain the first time and Jack asks if Ennis is going to do this again next summer.  After Ennis says "well, maybe not"...

Ennis clearly says: "Like I said, me and Alma's getting married in November"
But the subtitles say: "Like I said, man, I was getting married in November"

To my ears they might as well have suggested he said "dude", as "man" is not something I would expect Ennis to say in 1963!  Then there's TS2.  This was really interesting because the subtitles would have us believe that all the "sorries" or "s'alrights" are actually Jack saying "I swear... I swear... I swear"!

Now get all excited and please don't throw rocks at me for suggesting this, I don't thinks Jack says this at all - I'm just quoting the subtitles! ;)  At the time and at first I wanted to yell "what were you thinking" to the imaginary subtitle authors in the room, but on reflection, maybe they saw this as a bookend for Ennis saying "Jack, I swear" at the end of the film?  Maybe indeed, but that might be giving them a little too much credit.

Presuming that these mistakes are not on the R1 version, one would have to conclude that there may be all sorts of differences in the DVD mastering that would have us comparing completely different material.  What about the audio track itself?  Are we to assume that we are comparing the same thing where "I love you" is concerned?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 04, 2006, 12:19:20 am
But the subtitles say: "Like I said, man, I was getting married in November"

To my ears they might as well have suggested he said "dude", as "man" is not something I would expect Ennis to say in 1963!

 :laugh: LOL, Chris. You're right (and funny). I remember "man" being used in the LATE '60s, but even then it was sort of hippie-speak; I was little then, so the first people I ever really noticed saying it were the characters on The Mod Squad!

On another topic: 2robots4u, I'm curious, do your subtitles cover the radio announcer who can be heard in the background when Ennis is getting ready for a fishing trip (the time he almost forgets his tackle)? Ellemeno has pointed out that it sounds like a homophobic joke (come to think of it, cranking up the volume to try to catch it was what led me later to discover the "I love you"!).

It is so sad -- not only because it indicates the ubiquity of homophobia, but also because Ennis has to be subjected to it just as he's happily packing to meet Jack.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 04, 2006, 10:30:21 pm
The subtitle says only "TV chatter", buy you can clearly hear what is said and the the dialogue is exactly as stated by a poster above.  But I cannot understand it clearly enough to interpret it is a gay joke.  And after my length comment on the details of the subtittling, I am greatly surprised that this radio exchange was not subtitled.  I missed this radio noise altogether.  Pardon my error...

As for the posting of Ennis and Jack holding hands in TS1, it isn't handing-holding; Ennis reaches forward and grabs Jack's wrist, and continues to hold onto it until the climatic moment, with Ennis dropping his head to Jack's back.

At no time in TS1 do I hear "Fuck me".  There is a lot of clothes/bedding rustling, Jack pounding the bedding, grunts, gasps, heavy breathing, but no verbal commentary. 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 06, 2006, 09:50:24 pm
To Chris...in several of your postings you have used "R1" and "R4" versions of this movie.  What do they mean?  At first, I thought it might be a censorship code.  Please explain.  Thnks.  Doug
 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on August 06, 2006, 09:54:07 pm
Just watched today. One my DVD copy I could clearly hear and see "I love you"
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 06, 2006, 10:01:02 pm
Just watched today. One my DVD copy I could clearly hear and see "I love you"

 :-*

Welcome to the club, JP!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Aussie Chris on August 07, 2006, 04:25:39 am
To Chris...in several of your postings you have used "R1" and "R4" versions of this movie.  What do they mean?  At first, I thought it might be a censorship code.  Please explain.  Thnks.  Doug

Hi Doug (nice to use your name btw), R1 & R4 stand for REGION 1 & 4 and is type of "security" encoding that the manufacturors put on DVD's to restrict the distribution of the disks.  If you look on the back of one of your disks you should see a small picture of a globe with a number (1) in it to signify that the disk has been encoded for the U.S. and Canada.  The reason for this encoding is to protect the distribution companies complex international distribution agreements, so you can't just buy a disk from anywhere in the world and play it on your home player (because that would be just awful ::)).  Anyway, this is in addition to the picture encoding that your televisions use (called NTSC), which is different to the one ours use (called PAL).  To save this reply from becoming too technical, if you'd like to read more on this (including a list of all the regions and which countries use them) have a look at http://hometheater.about.com/cs/dvdlaserdisc/a/aaregioncodesa.htm (http://hometheater.about.com/cs/dvdlaserdisc/a/aaregioncodesa.htm).

However, an interesting side effect to all this licensing and formatting is that a DVD title in the U.S. can be *very* different than ones from other countries.  The movie itself can be taken from different film stock and converted using different technology (called a telecine) by different people with varying skill sets and preferences for brightness, edge enhancement, colour correction and even framing.  The sound tracks can also be altered and adjusted with different compression or formatting (e.g. DTS versus Dolby Digital).  And of course, subtitles are typically written by different people.  The point is that you and I could buy the same title and see a very different movie.

Ok after all that, it would seem that the only difference that I am aware of between the Australian (region 4) disk and the U.S. (region 1) version of Brokeback Mountain is that the R4 version has been formatted for PAL televisions.  This means that our picture quality is a little better because PAL uses more scan lines and therefore the picture is a little sharper.  Again, to keep this from getting too technical, I'll let you read up on that yourself: http://hometheater.about.com/cs/consumerresources/a/aawhosyourpala.htm (http://hometheater.about.com/cs/consumerresources/a/aawhosyourpala.htm).

The bottom line is that although I think our picture quality is slightly better, the disks are basically the same.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on August 17, 2006, 03:56:35 am
As for the posting of Ennis and Jack holding hands in TS1, it isn't handing-holding; Ennis reaches forward and grabs Jack's wrist, and continues to hold onto it until the climatic moment, with Ennis dropping his head to Jack's back.

This is how I see it too.  Even though I periodically try again to see what others see.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on August 18, 2006, 12:28:57 am
The "I love you" is right here. Ennis (Heath) is actually saying it in this still. The second he gets the words out scene exits to Mrs Twist with coffee cup in kitchen.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on August 18, 2006, 01:15:18 am
Everyone hear "Give them hell" When Ennis starts to get up to go to the sheep before FNIT? I do, but not until it was pointed out to me.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Rutella on August 20, 2006, 10:14:38 am
Everyone hear "Give them hell" When Ennis starts to get up to go to the sheep before FNIT? I do, but not until it was pointed out to me.

goddamn another reason to watch BBM again tonight to see if I can hear that....What a hard life I have  ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 20, 2006, 11:16:21 am
Everyone hear "Give them hell" When Ennis starts to get up to go to the sheep before FNIT? I do, but not until it was pointed out to me.

Are you saying Ennis says that? Why? (Here I go again being skeptical. Prove me wrong!) At what moment would he actually say that? After he says, “It’s too late to go up to them sheep”?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on August 20, 2006, 11:18:47 am
Are you saying Ennis says that? Why? (Here I go again being skeptical. Prove me wrong!) At what moment would he actually say that? After he says, “It’s too late to go up to them sheep”?
Sorry it's Jack that says it to Ennis. Right after Ennis says "I'll guess I go up to the sheep now".
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 20, 2006, 11:30:41 am
Sorry it's Jack that says it to Ennis. Right after Ennis says "I'll guess I go up to the sheep now".

That makes more sense. I'll have to watch and see if I hear it!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on August 20, 2006, 12:06:00 pm
That makes more sense. I'll have to watch and see if I hear it!

You can see it in the subtitles.  I know they aren't infallible, but in this case, it seems right.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 20, 2006, 01:27:09 pm
You can see it in the subtitles.  I know they aren't infallible, but in this case, it seems right.

I just checked it out and you are right! What a crack up!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: iluvchocolate on August 21, 2006, 09:59:27 pm
Well both my husband (horo35) and I watched that scene and well we both don't agree.  I hear "i love you" and I don't think he heard anything.  I turned closed captions on to see if it would pick it up... of course it didn't.  Now I am sure he's saying I love you!!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 24, 2006, 02:19:39 pm
The "I love you" is right here. Ennis (Heath) is actually saying it in this still. The second he gets the words out scene exits to Mrs Twist with coffee cup in kitchen.

Mark, I agree -- that is the moment.

Your photo makes me think of something else: how many times in key scenes we see Ennis grasping a handful of Jack's clothing. Here, the end of the lake scene, the dozy embrace.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 24, 2006, 06:03:09 pm
Mark, I agree -- that is the moment.

Your photo makes me think of something else: how many times in key scenes we see Ennis grasping a handful of Jack's clothing. Here, the end of the lake scene, the dozy embrace.

... the reunion scene, TS1, etc. Great observation!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Mikaela on August 24, 2006, 06:49:13 pm
It's weird...... I don't think the "I love you" is really there. I personally believe it's just Ennis exhaling strongly, audibly, unevenly.  Nevertheless, now that I know exactly where it is, now that I know how many here do hear him clearly saying"I love you"  - I'm hearing it too. At least I'll agree it's a possibility he may actually and intentionally be whispering it -  keeping it so low-key as to be almost indiscernible, but still *there*.

By now I don't think it will ever be possible for me to watch that moment in the film again without automatically hearing - and thinking - "I love you". Which adds volumes to the depth and emotion and sheer force of the scene. So a warm thank you to everyone who hears it without any shadow of a doubt!  :)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 25, 2006, 01:23:11 am
By now I don't think it will ever be possible for me to watch that moment in the film again without automatically hearing - and thinking - "I love you". Which adds volumes to the depth and emotion and sheer force of the scene. So a warm thank you to everyone who hears it without any shadow of a doubt!  :)

I myself do have a shadow of a doubt. But only a shadow -- I'm maybe 85 percent sure. Part of it is that the movie is so full of these nearly indiscernible moments, others of which have been verified 100 percent, that it isn't implausible (it just seems like yet another trick of Ang's to drive us crazy); part is that those three exhales or twitches or whatever they are so neatly fit that intepretation; part is the way the scene cuts away to Mrs. Twist immediately afterward; part is that it's what I'd probably say under the circumstances -- what I probably wouldn't be able to keep myself from saying -- if I were Ennis. And part, to be honest, is my really wanting it to be there because, as you say, it "adds volumes to the depth and emotion and sheer force of the scene." The scene is pretty much perfect without it, but with it, it's more than perfect. So, as always when something is sufficiently ambiguous, I simply choose the interpretation that makes me happiest (or least sad).

I know some would call that wishful thinking, but that's not entirely accurate either. I do think there's a strong objective basis for it, too.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Penthesilea on August 25, 2006, 04:06:39 pm
I was once one of those in opposotion to "I love you". I was sure it is not there and it is only wishful thinking of those who believed it's there.
After Katherine described very detailed, when and where to look for it, I watched the scene with volume cranked up. Watched it repeatedly and watched it on slow-motion.

I'm still not sure about it. But I altered my opinion from a definite 'No' to a 'could be'. I definately hear something. And it could be I love you.
Darn. I've lent my DVD to my friend, so I can't check it again right now. When I have my DVD back, I'll make my husband listening carefully to this scene. He's a neutral observer. I won't tell him what he is supposed to hear or not hear at first. I'll just ask him whether he hears anything that could be more than exhaling at all.
I'll report back (if he won't call the men with the straightjacket :laugh:).
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 25, 2006, 04:52:39 pm
Darn. I've lent my DVD to my friend, so I can't check it again right now. When I have my DVD back, I'll make my husband listening carefully to this scene. He's a neutral observer. I won't tell him what he is supposed to hear or not hear at first. I'll just ask him whether he hears anything that could be more than exhaling at all.
I'll report back (if he won't call the men with the straightjacket :laugh:).

YIKES!! No way could I lend out my copy of BBM! I even have two DVD's ... but one is for home and the other is for when I travel.  :-\ CRAZY, I know!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Penthesilea on August 25, 2006, 05:04:14 pm
YIKES!! No way could I lend out my copy of BBM! I even have two DVD's ... but one is for home and the other is for when I travel.  :-\ CRAZY, I know!

I have two, too  :laugh:
But one is dubbed in German, so it's not fit to prove anything.
I never thought I would ever lend my original (English) DVD to anyone. But my only fellow-Brokie in real-life asked me for it. And she can't even speak English! Talking about crazy. She can't understand what is said, but wanted to see the movie in it's original language, with the original voices of the actors, nonetheless.

I don't know if I had lend it to any other person but her. And fortunaltely I have no reason to do so, because I don't know any person who likes to see movies in English. Though I have no problems to lend out the German version, because it's the English one which is closer to my heart.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 25, 2006, 07:41:57 pm
I have two, too  :laugh:
But one is dubbed in German, so it's not fit to prove anything.
I never thought I would ever lend my original (English) DVD to anyone. But my only fellow-Brokie in real-life asked me for it. And she can't even speak English! Talking about crazy. She can't understand what is said, but wanted to see the movie in it's original language, with the original voices of the actors, nonetheless.

I don't know if I had lend it to any other person but her. And fortunaltely I have no reason to do so, because I don't know any person who likes to see movies in English. Though I have no problems to lend out the German version, because it's the English one which is closer to my heart.

It's still a great sacrifice! It does make a difference to hear it in a non-dubbed version. You are obviously a good friend … especially since your friend can’t even understand English!   ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 27, 2006, 07:05:57 pm
Hi all...as I said a number of posts above, I asked a detective friend in a major police department to review certain scenes for me.  I received the results a week ago, but due to time, was just able to get the response ready for posting.

His name is John and he told his partners what he was doing and 2 of them wanted to help out, so this turned out far better than I expected.  None of the 3 had seen the movie, so I asked that they not view the entire movie first, but to review only specific scenes, then view it in one sweep.

For ease of identification I will use the first initial of all people involved, including characters:

Both male detectives are John; my friend is gay so he is GJ, the other is straight-SJ, and Magaret is M.  Jack-J, Ennis-E, Alma-A, Alma Jr.-Jr., Randall-R, Lureen-Lu, Lashawn-La.

Each of the 3 purchased a DVD individually soas not to get 2 from the same place, ending up with 2 full screen, and 1 wide screen.  Typical police investigative techniques were employeed.

TS1:  a.  some viewers reported J and E were holding hands.  No, not in the
             traditional sense.  During the sex act, E places his right hand on top
             of the back of J right hand, where it remains until the act ends.
        b.  Many viewers claim to see J place E hand on his (J) crotch.  After both
             E and J have sat up, and before J starts to remove his jacket, they
             move their hands around a lot trying to establish a hold on each other.
             In this struggle, E places his left hand on J left forearm; J begins to move
             his arm down and we see some shoulder movement by J.  The rest is
             out of the viewer's range, below the bottom edge of the film.  But by
             the process of extrapolation, and the "moment of  content" view on
             E face, all 3 analysts agree that it is 99% possible that it did occur.
         c.  When the "Fuck me" line was first mentioned, a few viewers stated
              they heard it, but as it got more momentum, more and more claim to
              have heard it.  After removing all sound from the film, except voice
              prints, all 3 analysists agree that it is non-existent.

TS2:  The big question is who speaks, and what is said?  There is only 1 voice
         print in this scene, and he says "I'M sorry" followed by "It's all right, it's
         all right.  Lie back, Come on".  That voice belongs to J.

Reunion Kiss:  This scene was analyzed from the moment E begins to descend
                    the stairs, until he starts back up to introduce J.  Again, all
                    sound, except voice prints, are removed, and both voices are
                    heard, but only 1 statement each:  J says "Son of a bitch" as     
                    they embrace.  E looks around for "spys", grabs J by the shirt,
                    begins to push him to the stairwell, and says "Come here".
                    Nothing else is there, specifically "later" by E as they separate,
                    as was suggeted and affirmed to by several viewers.

Closet scene:  This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
                     what was said/not said.  The scene was alalyzed from the time
                     E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
                     All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
                     there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.

A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him.  It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2.  With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said?  How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place.   

Benefit Dance Scene:  This scene was the more difficult to analyze because so
                    much is going on at one time.  M and GJ both agreed that to
                    understand who says what to whom, you have to pay close
                    attention to vocal tones (is it sultry, just plain talk, downright
                    nasty, sarcasism, or in a jocking manner), voice inflextions (the rise and fall
                    of syllables and  key expressions), and eye movement. J eyes dart
                    around a lot from Lu to La to R, and to off in the distance, but at
                    the moment when he says "You want to dance?" he is looking
                    directly at La.  SJ agrees to this, but adds that R responds as if
                    HE were asked.  M and GJ respond that R is suprised that J asks
                    La to dance, the reason for the look on his face, and then the
                    look he give La when she accepts.  After a few more runs through
                    the machine, SJ finally agrees that J most definitely asks La to
                    dance, but is still questioning the reaction of R.

So there you have it.  Please remember the expression "Don't kill the messenger."

Doug


   
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 27, 2006, 07:15:04 pm
I forgot to mention in the above that SJ and M found the full screen version better because of the "closer to the character" feel, while GJ found wide screen better because it shows everything going on in the scene.  To that, I have to add that I am in favor of both versions for different reasons, but in the wide screen version, why do I care what the horses are doing in the scene with J and E sitting at the fire?  The attention should be on them, and no the creatures of the night. I feel the full screen give me the sense of being in, but not intruding upon the scene (such as the motel scene), whereas, the wide screen makes me a distant spectator, but provides beautiful scenery.  Tough choice, isn't it
Doug
 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: dly64 on August 27, 2006, 07:57:05 pm
I forgot to mention in the above that SJ and M found the full screen version better because of the "closer to the character" feel, while GJ found wide screen better because it shows everything going on in the scene.  To that, I have to add that I am in favor of both versions for different reasons, but in the wide screen version, why do I care what the horses are doing in the scene with J and E sitting at the fire?  The attention should be on them, and no the creatures of the night. I feel the full screen give me the sense of being in, but not intruding upon the scene (such as the motel scene), whereas, the wide screen makes me a distant spectator, but provides beautiful scenery.  Tough choice, isn't it
Doug
 

OMG, Doug! You have debunked almost everything I believed (with the exception of the hand being placed on Jack's groin and Ennis' saying "come here").  >:( (Okay, okay ... I know you are the messenger, so I won't kill you!)

BTW, I am a staunch believer in widescreen versions because they show the intent of the director. However, I am fortunate to have a magnifier on my DVD player. So, if there is something I want to see up close and personal, I click it and it turns it into full-screen. I can continue to be a film snob in name and then secretly enjoy portions in the full-screen format.  ::)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 27, 2006, 08:10:14 pm
Diane..thanks for sparing me ;D
 You can be as big a film snob as you want. If I had the wide screen version (a store mix-up gave me the full screen version and I didn't want to go through the hassle of returning it) I would probably have different comments on which is best.  But as I said, I like both versions for different reasons. 8)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on August 28, 2006, 12:10:26 am
Doug, I'm curious. Did your friend and his colleagues do anything special when they analyzed these scenes? I mean, obviously they are trained professionals, so they applied that expertise to their analysis. But aside from that, did they use any special equipment or techniques? Or did they do pretty much what the rest of us do when trying to figure out these things -- in other words, watch it really closely and listen really hard with the volume up?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on August 28, 2006, 10:46:08 am
Hi, Katherine...they used the equipment available in the police dept, which can enhance sound, delete all sound, sharpen the picture, slow-mo, voice prints/patterns, voice overlay, etc.  Basically the same thing you see in TV shows (Without A Trace, CSI).  It is as reliable as it can get until newer equipment is invented, so I accept the findings.  I know some viewers will still be skeptical and continue in this beliefs, but that's OK.  This wasn't to prove whose right or wrong, and I guess I should have put a message at the beginning of my post to alert viewers so if they didn't want to know, not to read further.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Daphne7661 on August 28, 2006, 11:50:59 pm
  TS2:  The big question is who speaks, and what is said?  There is only 1 voice
         print in this scene, and he says "I'M sorry" followed by "It's all right, it's
         all right.  Lie back, Come on".  That voice belongs to J.

I am sooooo happy right now to have read this.  Some of you may understand, but I have always believed it was only one of them talking in this scene, and that the voice was Jack's!!!

Happy Happy Happy

 :) :D :D :)

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: belbbmfan on September 01, 2006, 01:51:02 pm
So there you have it.  Please remember the expression "Don't kill the messenger."

Doug
   

no no no, thank the messenger you mean. You've certainly cleared up a few mysteries for me. (which were mostly due to wrong subtitles)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on September 01, 2006, 03:01:15 pm

 
TS2:  The big question is who speaks, and what is said?  There is only 1 voice
         print in this scene, and he says "I'M sorry" followed by "It's all right, it's
         all right.  Lie back, Come on".  That voice belongs to J.

 
To me "I'm sorry" sounds exactly like "S'alright" that Jack whispers the next two times. That is what I see and hear.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on September 14, 2006, 12:53:51 pm
I was fortunate enough a couple of night ago to see 'Brokeback" at a friends home with a screening room surround sound, etc. As good as a theater really. n the scene pictured below I could hear as shown in the screen play the scene pictured below:

Ennis: Look what I brought.

Jack: Beans

Ennis: Gonna fix 'm just the way I use to.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on September 14, 2006, 12:54:54 pm
I was fortunate enough a couple of night ago to see 'Brokeback" at a friends home with a screening rome, sourround sound, etc.

So Mark, what did you hear in the closet scene?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on September 14, 2006, 12:58:51 pm
So Mark, what did you hear in the closet scene?

"I love you" of course, Although no one else did, we did not rewind, nor did I have anyone look for it before. I did not hear "Oh Jack"
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on September 14, 2006, 01:03:46 pm
Also no one heard understood "Jack I swear".
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on September 14, 2006, 04:58:18 pm
What is it we hear when Jack and Ennis are walking to the bar? Dogs barking or what?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on September 26, 2006, 01:17:09 pm
Everyone must have heard this but me. Some one had pointed out in another thread that in FNIT Jack says "Ennis" just before he pulls him down. I check my DVD and he does.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on October 04, 2006, 12:25:43 pm
What does Jack say when they have just moved the sheep to the 2nd location and are on the mountain whith the sheep? It end with what sound like "...stay up here." but I can't make out what's before that.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Penthesilea on October 04, 2006, 03:37:06 pm
Back to the mysterious "I love you":

As promised, I made my husband listening to it. Volume cranked up, I gave him order to listen carefully to Ennis's breathing, not the music. And I said "now" a second before ILY is said/not said.
Then I asked him if he had heard anything aside the breathing? No. Maybe some breathed words? No.

Next I told him what the discussion is about and made him watch and listen a second time: Still nothing.

Achievements of the procedure:

1) Definately no I love you according to my husband.

2) Some very bemused looks by my husband. A shaking of his head and his closing comment: "You all are nuts." Now I have it officially certified from my beloved man: I'm nuts regarding BBM. But don't you dare to laugh: you were all included in his judgement  ;D.

3) My vote stays the same: an undecided 'maybe'.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 04, 2006, 09:21:11 pm
In the fancy surround sound viewing (that sounds fun by the way!)... what was your conclusion about the "I'm sorry" controversy in regards to SNIT?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on October 04, 2006, 09:47:57 pm
In the fancy surround sound viewing (that sounds fun by the way!)... what was your conclusion about the "I'm sorry" controversy in regards to SNIT?
As I always heard, it's " s'alright" three times, the first two before Jack nods.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on October 05, 2006, 12:10:18 am
Jack sort of tosses his head to screen left and says (faintly), “...set up camp?” Ennis nods in response.
I hear it clearly now, but not really sure what hes says right before, "Sheep will be safe up here?"
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: NavyVet on October 23, 2006, 12:13:38 am
Hey y'all!  What an interesting thread.  I found it today and this actually prompted me to unwrap the DVD that I had bought the day it was realeased.  (I know, don't ask, but I hadn't been able to watch it all this time.)

Anyway, I put it on my 32" LCD TV with the sound run through Bose speakers, cranked up. I'm a musician and am considered to have pretty good hearing.  Here's what *I* experienced of the scenes in question with repeated rewinds.  I have the widescreen version if that matters.
First, btw, the first time tent scene was very dark - I could hardly SEE anything!  Aren't all DVDs the same?  How are people managing to brighten the picture?  I could see clothes grabbing and grappling, but I never saw Ennis's hand on top of Jack's hand or anywhere else for that matter.  Lots of grunts and noises.  There was a breathy exhalation that could have been a whispered "fuck", but definitely not 'fuck me'.  At least , I did not hear it.

The second time in tent:  Jack said (whispered very softly) "I'm sorry" 2 times followed by 1 "s'all right' at which point he nodded.  I could not hear any 'lie back' or 'come on' or anything else.  Btw, I just love the music throughout this scene.

Ennis with the 2 shirts in closet:  Never heard an 'oh, Jack', but, there was barely whispered, more like a breathy exhalation of what sounded like 'I love you' right before scene cuts.  It fit the lip movements, too.  So it's not like he said it out loud even though he was alone, but more like he was thinking it and it came out as a sigh.

Anyway, that's my interpretation, and I'm stickin' to it.   ;)

With Ennis' mumbling, there were a lot of spots that were really difficult to catch all the words spoken.  Easy to miss stuff w/o paying diligent attention, fer sure.
Thanx for letting me join in!   :-*
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on October 23, 2006, 12:29:32 am
  So it's not like he said it out loud even though he was alone, but more like he was thinking it and it came out as a sigh.

Anyway, that's my interpretation, and I'm stickin' to it.   ;)

Rightly so -- that's a great interpretation, NavyVet! I've never seen anyone put it that way before, but it fits exactly. It's like something halfway between speech and thought.

Has anyone else every sort of half-whispered "I love you" to themselves, when thinking about a loved one? I have. And that's exactly how it sounds -- like exhalation with lip movements that might possibly be words. If someone had caught me on film, the audience could argue for months afterward whether I'd said it or not (that is, assuming they would care one way or the other  :laugh:).

Quote
Thanx for letting me join in!   :-*

Thank YOU! And wecome to the discussion.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 27, 2006, 02:04:29 pm
another "mystery" scene/script item is at the beginning...

When Jack and Ennis are looking at each other outside Agearre's trailer, there is a quick segment, just before Jack is shown shaving, where Jack looks at Ennis, then Jack lowers his head and his hat covers his eyes.

At that moment, Jack's lips move. I believe Jack mumbles "oh my God" or "oh man" to indicate from the get go that Jack is enamoured with Ennis.

Anyone else see this? thanks!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on October 27, 2006, 02:12:10 pm
Hi Katherine,

I do see something, I had never seen before, but I can't tell what he is mouthing.
 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 27, 2006, 06:45:13 pm
Katherine?
this is a very, very subtle detail that, if noticed, sets up Jack as being immediately savvy and aware of what he himself if hoping for. Once I caught this detail, the scenes leading up to the first tent night were a bit more "set up" by Jack and made me feel Ennis was more innocent, in comparison, than previously viewed.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on October 27, 2006, 07:39:41 pm
I think you could be right, HerrKaiser! I certainly have always thought he at least gives a smile --  like a nonverbal "Yesssss!" But maybe he's actually saying something, too!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 27, 2006, 07:48:22 pm
almost no one latches on to this point that I have tried to put forth for months! I was one of the last items of "new things i saw" in the film on screening #15. Having studied this 2 second clip several times, I am struck that indeed Jack mouths a comment to himself.

by the by, chicago is number 1 on all measures!!!!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: brokebackjack on October 29, 2006, 06:47:09 pm
I thought Jack said SOMETHING to himself from the second time I saw the film, but what that might have been, who knows. His lips do move.I had a feeling he mumbled something like omgod.

It's quite possible to have an immediate attraction to someone and not let them know it, hell I did that for months and months.  I think I may have actually mumbled something like Holy Shit, under my breathwhen I first saw my BF roflmao.

Now, this doesn't make Ennis any more innocent then JT at all, and when you look at Ennis after he says the 'you may be a sinner.....' line,  he gives JT a knowing up/down glance. They both knew 'sorta' where it was headed but may not have really believed it.

Both of em were afraid of screwing up what was turnin into a spectacularly good friendship in both book AND film.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Rayn on October 30, 2006, 12:58:00 pm
There's no doubt that Ennis loved Jack, had a strong love for him, care about him deeply, felt a connection to him like no other.  I mean, if it were just a "good sex" thing, do you think it could have lasted 20 years?  That I doubt.   But whether he says "I love you" or not in the closet scene is a very interesting question.  I will have look closely and listen too.  I know, in the book it just says he inhaled trying to get some sweet smell of Jack, but there was nothing left... or words to that effect.  I'll get back to ya, after I see that scene again.

R
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 31, 2006, 10:40:46 am
This is not the most exciting of indiscernable moments but I'm interesting in knowing what the radio announcer is saying in the background in the first bar scene, when Alma is doing laundry in the sink, and when Ennis is preparing to go off on the first trip with Jack. Also, when Jack is getting out of the truck in the post-divorce scene. It would be interesting to string this all together and see what it says.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Kazza on October 31, 2006, 10:57:33 am
another "mystery" scene/script item is at the beginning...

When Jack and Ennis are looking at each other outside Agearre's trailer, there is a quick segment, just before Jack is shown shaving, where Jack looks at Ennis, then Jack lowers his head and his hat covers his eyes.

At that moment, Jack's lips move. I believe Jack mumbles "oh my God" or "oh man" to indicate from the get go that Jack is enamoured with Ennis.

Anyone else see this? thanks!

I did take a close look at this scene again, and made sure I had my headphones on (just in case) but my take was that Jack was just moving his lips over his teeth, and then swallowing.

However, I am open to suggestions, and think I'll give it another watch. It's a hardship having to view Jake's performance so closely!  ;)

Karen
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on October 31, 2006, 03:14:00 pm
This is not the most exciting of indiscernable moments but I'm interesting in knowing what the radio announcer is saying in the background in the first bar scene, when Alma is doing laundry in the sink, and when Ennis is preparing to go off on the first trip with Jack. Also, when Jack is getting out of the truck in the post-divorce scene. It would be interesting to string this all together and see what it says.

Somewhere around here Ellemeno transcribed what the radio announcer says when Ennis is preparing to go fishing with Jack (not the first time, though -- the one where he almost forgets the tackle box). She (Elle) interprets it as a homophobic joke.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 31, 2006, 04:03:22 pm
I have been searching for this for over an hour but all I can find are several references to it by ... you!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: 2robots4u on October 31, 2006, 07:16:32 pm
Ellemeno referenced it on July 5, post #122.  Shortly after reading her post I rewatched that scene many time and agree it is a joke, perhaps a gay joke, but it is hard to tell.  And there is no subtitling for the radio announcer either...Doug
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Penthesilea on October 31, 2006, 08:03:49 pm
Thanks, 2robots. I was searching for it, too, but like Lee couldn't find it.

I quote it here, for easier access:

I hear the radio during Ennis's packing almost the same, Barbara, but not quite:

"...This great big guy...big, hairy, monstrous guy - must have been a construction worker all his life. And he's sitting at the bar next to this little bitty fellah...and the bartender... (dialogue)...and he grabs this <something>...and he just slips <something>...

"How did you do that? And the little guy replies (soft, wussy voice, kind of like Wally Cox), "Well, Sir....."

So, as I like to point out - I think this is a "faggot" joke.  The construction worker represents the red-blooded American male, and the little bitty guy represents a "queer."  What Ennis and Jack have to listen to subliminally.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on November 01, 2006, 01:15:13 pm
Thanks for unburying this. As I recall, when Alma is washing laundry in the sink, the white male radio announcer is saying something like "When you go to the store, what do you put in your shopping cart..." and when Jack jumps out of the truck at the beginning of the post-divorce scene, the white male announcer says something about Little Richard and the words, "Went nuts for it." I haven't been able to make out what is said in the background of the first bar scene at all. The initial reaction that I get to all the subliminal radio effects is that it adds to the sexual tension of the scenes. Particularly when added to the beating of Alma's washboard in the sink.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on November 01, 2006, 01:39:26 pm
Particularly when added to the beating of Alma's washboard in the sink.

You noticed that too, hunh? You hear the pounding before you see Alma at the sink. The first time I saw the movie, I heard that and thought we were about to see Ennis and Alma. Yet another thing I bet is no coincidence.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 27, 2006, 11:03:07 pm
bump
 ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 09, 2006, 02:56:21 pm
Another one. During TS1, when Jack and Ennis first straighten up. Ennis murmurs something drunkenly. Now, somebody is suggesting he's saying "What are we doin?" Anybody else hear that?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on December 09, 2006, 02:59:13 pm
Another one. During TS1, when Jack and Ennis first straighten up. Ennis murmurs something drunkenly. Now, somebody is suggesting he's saying "What are we doin?" Anybody else hear that?

I hear him saying, "What are you doing?" (italics mine).
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on December 09, 2006, 06:08:37 pm
I hear him saying, "What are you doing?" (italics mine).

I aways heard it but as "What are we doin' ".
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CarlaMom2 on December 09, 2006, 08:19:07 pm
Here you guys go again......I have to check this out!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CarlaMom2 on December 09, 2006, 09:50:03 pm
OK, not to backtrack......be patient I'm new......I did hear the "I love you.'  Watching that part three times with the volume on full blast was a little wierd.  That scene is truly beautiful.  There is no dialouge, but his actions are so strong.  I felt the love puring out of him and me!

I am going to have to check out the other things you all are mentioning.  I love finding something new about this movie that I love.
Carla ;) 
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 09, 2006, 10:05:39 pm
Yessssssssss! Welcome, Carla, to the small but passionate "Yes, he did say I love U in the closet" bunch, Carla!!

About the What are you/we doing question, I guess we are still unresolved...

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on December 09, 2006, 10:18:56 pm
I thought it was pretty clear, more so that the "Give 'm hell"
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: angry little lawyer on December 22, 2006, 01:58:43 am
I saw BBM again recently and tried to be on the look out for some of those "contraversial" moments...I heard C'mere right before Ennis slams Jack into the wall for their reunion kiss....and someone on fan fiction.net suggested that right before Ennis and Jack part so that Ennis can go back upstairs to deal with Alma he tells Jack "later" referring to the fact that they'll be doing more kissing and stuff later. I paid close attention to the reunion scene and sure enough I heard "later". Not sure if I heard it b/c I was listening for it.....I also think what Jack says during SNIT sounds more like "s'alright" than "sorry" but its just so hard to tell... ;D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM-Cat on December 22, 2006, 02:35:36 am
It is interesting and difficult to separate out the effects of priming - the pre-expectation of what one will hear. At my first viewing of BBM, when I did not have any preconceived ideas or expectations about the movie, there are some of the controversial lines I heard clear as a bell (s'alright x 3); while other lines I hear only now because my expectation has been primed. I want to believe the closet 'I love you', but have yet to discern it for myself in that scene.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: belbbmfan on December 22, 2006, 02:39:43 am
I hear him saying, "What are you doing?" (italics mine).



Yes, 'what are you doing'!
I heard that the first time i saw the movie. Of course, it was subtitled so that made it easier for me to 'hear' what they were saying. (and yes the subtitle people in Belgium obviously heard Ennis say 'I'm sorry' too. ;D)

Did you notice that Ennis says exactly the same thing to Cassie when she puts her feet on his lap? Like he can't believe on either occasions that anyone might want to get so physically close to him.

That was in fact the topic of one of first posts i did here on Bettermost.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on December 22, 2006, 02:44:49 am
Did you notice that Ennis says exactly the same thing to Cassie when she puts her feet on his lap? Like he can't believe on either occasions that anyone might want to get so physically close to him.

That was in fact the topic of one of first posts i did here on Bettermost.

Good point!  :D   Bookends don't lie.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on December 23, 2006, 03:34:27 am

Bookends don't lie.


Permission to use this for my sig line for a while, Katherine?  Unless you want to, a course.


So I'm just catching up with this thread for the first time in a long time, and there are all of you asking what I said, but no one asked ME, and there I was probably twiddling my thumbs right when you all were talking about it. 

What I Hear on the Radio:

Jack and Ennis in the Signal bar - I don't have much on that one.  I wrote about it here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=4686.msg92120#msg92120

The kitchen radio when Ennis comes home to the lonesome ranch - Yes, about the shopping cart.  I think it's a foreshadowing of Monroe. 

Ennis packing and almost forgetting his creel case - As above: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2401.msg54556#msg54556

Jack arriving, post-divorce - I can't find where I wrote about this before, maybe it was on IMDb.  Yes, something about Little Richard and "they went nuts for it."  Which I interpret as a message that Ennis and Jack don't pay attention to, that out in other parts of the world, effeminate Little Richard (whom I have a recording of singing "I Feel Pretty,") is not just accepted but has fans who go nuts for him.  That there isn't just homophobia in the world, there is acceptance and appreciation too.

Jack leaving, post-divorce - The announcer is saying something about how the temperature is dropping (I don't have the movie with me where I am, to get the words right).  The announcer is describing the weather and Jack's emotional world at the same time.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on December 23, 2006, 03:40:00 am
Permission to use this for my sig line for a while, Katherine?  Unless you want to, a course.

Of course, Elle! I'd be honored -- you always have the greatest sig lines.  :)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on December 23, 2006, 03:40:13 am
BTW, watching BBM on HBO the other night, my first time seeing it on a TV, I heard the "F* me, F* me" quite clearly.

BTW BTW, when I had lunch in Lynchburg, Virginia the other day with Lynne and Truman, right across the street from Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, I described to them how to hear this indiscernible moment.  

I did not use the F word, but rather simply grunted the sounds for them to hear the cadence, tone, and pitch of what to listen for.  Despite me not even using the F word, I still suddenly realized that Lynne and Truman were sneeking peeks around at our fellow diners to make sure no one else could hear me.  :)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: belbbmfan on December 23, 2006, 07:00:26 am
BTW BTW, when I had lunch in Lynchburg, Virginia the other day with Lynne and Truman, right across the street from Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, I described to them how to hear this indiscernible moment.  

I did not use the F word, but rather simply grunted the sounds for them to hear the cadence, tone, and pitch of what to listen for.  Despite me not even using the F word, I still suddenly realized that Lynne and Truman were sneeking peeks around at our fellow diners to make sure no one else could hear me.  :)


 :laugh:  :laugh:

Maybe a fellow diner later asked a waitress to bring 'whatever she's having!'

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Ellemeno on December 23, 2006, 11:23:24 am

 :laugh:  :laugh:

Maybe a fellow diner later asked a waitress to bring 'whatever she's having!'




GREAT ONE, Fabienne!!!  :D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on January 02, 2007, 09:41:59 pm
This was my take on "I love you".

I did say 'I love you' ta Jack. Some folks didn't think so but Ah did. Hope Jack could hear me, only time I ever said it. Always did though and he knowed it.


From 'Photo Captions'.

Mark
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: shortfiction on July 06, 2007, 05:47:49 pm
I had to  crank up the volume and watch Ennis's mouth to be sure, but it's definitely there.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: loneleeb3 on July 18, 2007, 03:46:30 pm
I just came upon this thread for the firsttime.
I'm going to get the DVD and watch for it.
I'm so glad this has been pointed out.
I know he did but to actually hear/see the words being said will be awesome!

You know how some people have said they think Ennis says "I love you" when he finds the shirts? Well, I have always been so skeptical about this that I've never even bothered to look for it.

But today I was skipping around my rental DVD, watching key scenes maybe for one the last time until fall. And I had the volume up higher than usual and noticed I kept hearing little muttered things that I hadn't heard in the past. So when I got to the shirt scene I decided to listen -- and watch -- really closely.

And now I think I agree.

I looked for it exactly the way I've tried to figure out "sorry/s'alright" -- watching for whether Ennis' lips move -- and in that scene they don't, which is why I moved to the "no sorry" camp. But in the closet scene his lips do move -- only you can hardly see it because the shirts are in the way. It's right after he takes a deep breath, trying to smell Jack's scent on the shirts. You can only see about a quarter inch of his mouth. But he moves as it if saying three words -- those three particular ones, in fact. And under the music, you can just barely hear something that sounds like three words being muttered.

I rewound and watched it about four more times with the volume cranked to 60 and my eyes about three inches away from the screen, and each time I became more and more convinced.

What do you all think?


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 28, 2008, 01:36:43 pm
I've been mining some of the back pages of Open Forum lately looking for great old topics to revive. There are so many gems buried in the deeper pages of this forum


:)

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: myprivatejack on February 29, 2008, 01:09:27 pm
I've been mining some of the back pages of Open Forum lately looking for great old topics to revive. There are so many gems buried in the deeper pages of this forum


:)

I'm sure where're... :) As this of remembering how Ennis realises Jack's love and his also in a more complete and assumed way than he never did when his partner was alive.I've always said that he begins a self-knowledge and self-acceptance only when he becomes alone;he does a kind of "coming out" before Jack's parents and I guess this is a kind of liberation for him.So,it's logical that he admits in loud voice what he has saved inside him during so many years and that he only refers to as "this thing".It's such a pity that it's too late to live it fully... :'(
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on May 22, 2017, 01:13:26 am
Hey, serious crayons!

You know what, after that HD video on Youtube of Ennis in Jack's closet, i do think he says "Oh, Jack" when / just before he touches the pocket of Jack's shirt.
I also see his mouth moving and hushing something, what you say is an "i love you", but it feels to be sooo quick and unnatural that i chose to think that he is not saying it ;). But that's just my choice. :)

This thread was extremely illuminating, by the way!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CellarDweller on June 12, 2017, 10:12:58 pm
I have to say, I've never heard the "I Love you" until I saw the film in Arizona.  I was pretty sure I heard it, very faintly.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 13, 2017, 03:49:29 am
I have to say, I've never heard the "I Love you" until I saw the film in Arizona.  I was pretty sure I heard it, very faintly.

Dear CellarDweller,

and how do you feel about it? ;) Or how do you like it? What's your thoughts?
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CellarDweller on June 13, 2017, 07:50:55 pm
I liked it when I didn't hear it.  I can't imagine Ennis telling  anyone he loved them.  He never even says it to his daughters, except to question Junior if Kurt loves her.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 15, 2017, 04:53:40 pm
I liked it when I didn't hear it.  I can't imagine Ennis telling  anyone he loved them.  He never even says it to his daughters, except to question Junior if Kurt loves her.

That's why he barely says it at all -- and he's talking to a shirt!

And his question about Kurt suggests that he has belatedly come to realize that love is the most important thing.



Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: southendmd on June 15, 2017, 07:33:26 pm
I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.  

I hear a hint of breath.  I suspect one can project onto this something more.

However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts.  He knows Jack is gone.  Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CellarDweller on June 15, 2017, 09:37:23 pm
I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts. 

that is a great expression!
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 16, 2017, 07:02:47 pm
I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.  

I hear a hint of breath.  I suspect one can project onto this something more.

When I first became a believer, on about my ninth or tenth viewing, it wasn't that I heard it but felt I saw him mouth the words.

OT, but I remember when I first saw the word S-E-X spelled out in The Lion King. I vaguely remembered, but had barely paid attention to at the time, some protests when the film first came out and Christian groups complained about it. At the time, I didn't believe it. Years later, my sons watched the video constantly. I had probably seen it, or parts of it, more times than I've seen BBM, when one day I was casually watching it with them and there's a part where Simba flops down on the ground and a cloud of dust swirls up around him and, for about a quarter of a second, particles form the word SEX. "There it is!" I cried,  leaping off the couch. Or maybe I didn't actually do that so as not to have to explain to my sons. In any case, that was definitely my reaction when I saw the "I love you."

Quote
However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts.  He knows Jack is gone.  Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.

Right. I didn't so much mean he's literally saying it to the shirts, like, "I love you -- I've always liked the look of a nice chambray."

He's verbally admitting to himself something he always knew deep down but was never able to say aloud when Jack was alive.


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: southendmd on June 17, 2017, 11:08:47 am
"I love you -- I've always liked the look of a nice chambray."

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: southendmd on June 17, 2017, 12:50:08 pm
Phew.  I just read through this entire thread.  I hadn't participated the first time around, mostly because I didn't have a reliable computer back then. Plus, there were SO many things being discussed.  Just look at how many replies occurred just in one day back then! 

The scientist in me appreciates Doug's (2robots4u) approach in asking his police detective friends to use their equipment to separate out voices from other stuff. 

Here it is:

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: southendmd on June 17, 2017, 12:50:39 pm
Hi all...as I said a number of posts above, I asked a detective friend in a major police department to review certain scenes for me.  I received the results a week ago, but due to time, was just able to get the response ready for posting.

His name is John and he told his partners what he was doing and 2 of them wanted to help out, so this turned out far better than I expected.  None of the 3 had seen the movie, so I asked that they not view the entire movie first, but to review only specific scenes, then view it in one sweep.

For ease of identification I will use the first initial of all people involved, including characters:

Both male detectives are John; my friend is gay so he is GJ, the other is straight-SJ, and Magaret is M.  Jack-J, Ennis-E, Alma-A, Alma Jr.-Jr., Randall-R, Lureen-Lu, Lashawn-La.

Each of the 3 purchased a DVD individually soas not to get 2 from the same place, ending up with 2 full screen, and 1 wide screen.  Typical police investigative techniques were employeed.

TS1:  a.  some viewers reported J and E were holding hands.  No, not in the
             traditional sense.  During the sex act, E places his right hand on top
             of the back of J right hand, where it remains until the act ends.
        b.  Many viewers claim to see J place E hand on his (J) crotch.  After both
             E and J have sat up, and before J starts to remove his jacket, they
             move their hands around a lot trying to establish a hold on each other.
             In this struggle, E places his left hand on J left forearm; J begins to move
             his arm down and we see some shoulder movement by J.  The rest is
             out of the viewer's range, below the bottom edge of the film.  But by
             the process of extrapolation, and the "moment of  content" view on
             E face, all 3 analysts agree that it is 99% possible that it did occur.
         c.  When the "Fuck me" line was first mentioned, a few viewers stated
              they heard it, but as it got more momentum, more and more claim to
              have heard it.  After removing all sound from the film, except voice
              prints, all 3 analysists agree that it is non-existent.

TS2:  The big question is who speaks, and what is said?  There is only 1 voice
         print in this scene, and he says "I'M sorry" followed by "It's all right, it's
         all right.  Lie back, Come on".  That voice belongs to J.

Reunion Kiss:  This scene was analyzed from the moment E begins to descend
                    the stairs, until he starts back up to introduce J.  Again, all
                    sound, except voice prints, are removed, and both voices are
                    heard, but only 1 statement each:  J says "Son of a bitch" as     
                    they embrace.  E looks around for "spys", grabs J by the shirt,
                    begins to push him to the stairwell, and says "Come here".
                    Nothing else is there, specifically "later" by E as they separate,
                    as was suggeted and affirmed to by several viewers.

Closet scene:  This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
                     what was said/not said.  The scene was alalyzed from the time
                     E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
                     All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
                     there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.

A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him.  It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2.  With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said?  How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place.   

Benefit Dance Scene:  This scene was the more difficult to analyze because so
                    much is going on at one time.  M and GJ both agreed that to
                    understand who says what to whom, you have to pay close
                    attention to vocal tones (is it sultry, just plain talk, downright
                    nasty, sarcasism, or in a jocking manner), voice inflextions (the rise and fall
                    of syllables and  key expressions), and eye movement. J eyes dart
                    around a lot from Lu to La to R, and to off in the distance, but at
                    the moment when he says "You want to dance?" he is looking
                    directly at La.  SJ agrees to this, but adds that R responds as if
                    HE were asked.  M and GJ respond that R is suprised that J asks
                    La to dance, the reason for the look on his face, and then the
                    look he give La when she accepts.  After a few more runs through
                    the machine, SJ finally agrees that J most definitely asks La to
                    dance, but is still questioning the reaction of R.

So there you have it.  Please remember the expression "Don't kill the messenger."

Doug


   
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 17, 2017, 02:00:24 pm
Quote
Closet scene:  This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
                     what was said/not said.  The scene was alalyzed from the time
                     E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
                     All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
                     there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.

A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him.  It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2.  With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said?  How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place. 


Well, 2robots4u's documentation is nothing if not thorough. But again, I'm willing to believe there's no sound -- as I recall, I lip-read it. True, I haven't watched the movie in 10 years (10 years -- damn!) so take that into account.

But to be blunt (sorry and with all due respect, 2robots4u, if you're lurking) I think his comment No. 1 is lame. Since when are we supposed to take Ennis' external words and behaviors as reflecting his innermost thoughts and feelings? The fact that they don't is practically the whole point of the movie.

Ennis communicates mostly in nonverbal subtleties: His wistful gaze into the distance in the "breaking my back" paving scene, his reaction to Jack's first postcard, his beer guzzling and chain smoking while waiting for Jack to arrive, his nervous glance at the truck going past when Jack drives up from Texas to see him, the very fact that he lets Jack's endearments go unanswered. Or he communicates in metaphorical subtleties: the bear, the cookware floating downriver, the pie in the bus station, the little carved horse, the trailer filled with knives and fans and a coffee pot. When he tells Jack his "sending up a prayer of thanks" is about Jack not bringing his harmonica, are we supposed to take that at face value? "Hunh, I would have thought it had something to do with seeing Jack again, but I guess he just really hates harmonica music."

Of course not. When Jack was alive, Ennis would never, ever say "I love you." He probably wouldn't even let that idea enter his own consciousness. But here we are at the absolute emotional climax of the whole movie -- just after Ennis has told Mr. and Mrs. Twist point blank that he and Jack was good friends, even when it's clear both parents know exactly what kind of friends they was -- and now, with Jack gone forever so it's too late, he finds what is unquestionably the most powerful metaphorical object of the whole movie. In that context, it seems quite possible that he would finally let the thought seep into his brain, that he might even allow himself to silently mumble the words. No, he's not going to shout it from the rooftops or even blurt it out clearly and audibly, or ever ever tell anyone else ever.

If he had -- if he'd said it loud enough for it to be ringingly clear-- the scene would topple into melodrama and sentimentality. It would be like a soap opera scene. It's already pushing the boundaries with the powerful shirts, but Heath mostly undercuts that with a low-key performance that still registers a terrible mixture of grief and regret. In that context, the line could only work if it remained so subtle and ambiguous as to have people still debating it more than 10 years later.  ;D

I think if anything this scene should be analyzed by someone extremely skilled in lip reading.


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: Sason on June 18, 2017, 03:37:23 pm
I've never heard the "I love you", and never really believed it was there even though people claimed to have heard it.

I have also never seen that post about the forensic examination before, it's most enlightening!
Thanks for finding it, Paul.

Seems it pretty much settles certain 10 year old disputes!  :D
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: milomorris on June 18, 2017, 04:10:39 pm
When I first became a believer, on about my ninth or tenth viewing, it wasn't that I heard it but felt I saw him mouth the words.

Same here. When I first read about the "I love you," I honestly thought I had missed something. So I replayed the scene over and over many times. While I could not say that I heard it, I could see that the words might be there from the motion of Heath's mouth.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 18, 2017, 07:18:19 pm
Same here. When I first read about the "I love you," I honestly thought I had missed something. So I replayed the scene over and over many times. While I could not say that I heard it, I could see that the words might be there from the motion of Heath's mouth.

Thank you, Milo!! I don't think the issue is decided just because the words are not audible on the soundtrack.

And nice to see you around these parts, by the way!  :)


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 18, 2017, 10:31:47 pm
I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.  

I hear a hint of breath.  I suspect one can project onto this something more.

However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts.  He knows Jack is gone.  Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.

*sigh* southendmd, that's so sad.... maybe, maybe.... as i said, i chose to believe that it's not an "i love you", notwithstanding any possible reasons for why he would / could said it at that particular moment.

For me, the ultimate moment when Ennis openly admits - to himself and a third party - that he indeed loved Jack is when he asks Junior whether the Kurt fella loves her. "Openly" is, of course, totally in Ennis terms, a great exaggeration otherwise! When i watch this scene i see that Jr.'s news touch him at a certain place and stir up lots of raw emotions in him, but i strongly feel that he is not evading or hiding them (even from himself) anymore. The fact that he utters the word "love" implies so much about himself - actually much more than a simple concern about his daughter's well-being. And the way how Heath is pressing out this question out of Ennis shows me that he is aware of just how much he is revealing to Jr. in this moment. He is fully aware that by his question he is actually telling his daughter 'yes, i have loved. yes, i have lost it. yes, love IS something that must be cherished' - he is aware and he still asks it because he is not running or denying anything anymore.

At the same time it just feels to me that Ennis is also talking to himself at this point. He needs some way to express his feelings which he cannot let out otherwise. I just can't picture Ennis talking to himself when nobody is around. I think when he does, he would talk to someone - like that "Jack, i swear..." But even then he cannot properly finish the sentence - maybe for the simple fact that there is actually nobody there to hear it (surely, not the only reason). I think Ennis needs somebody to be around so that he can voice his feelings and this opportunity he has in Jr.'s visit.
So, Jr. tells him about going to be married and Ennis' mind is instantly miles away. What he can only think about are two people who are - should be! - in love. He thinks about Jack and himself, which translates into Jr. and Kurt. He asks "He loves you?" and gets the answer "Yes, daddy, he loves me". This translates back to Ennis and Jack into "Jack loves me?" "Yes, he loves me", and vice versa. It's a complex moment...

By the way, look at Jr.'s face when Ennis poses his question. She sees it all! She sees that her dad is revealing his heart including the heartbreak, that he is finally acknowledging his own love for someone, that he had come to terms with his own feelings and - she smiles. She is first surprised, then relieved and happy for him...

Sorry, this was now kind of OT, but let me say that this is why i think he is not saying "i love you" in the closet - simply because there is nobody there to hear it... ;(



That analysis by 2robots4u was extremely interesting, when i read it i was actually quite surprised that nobody commented properly on it back then. I need to remind myself quite a lot that it is a movie we are talking about. All people - actors. Fakes! But it just cannot be... Why is it all so damn perfect?? Why is there so much complexity in each scene?? So many undercurrents, layers, feelings?? This movie is crazy magical!

And i need to agree with serious crayons that sometimes not even the best police detectives can detect all of the things said / done in this movie. For example, they had not detected the two "c'mon"s Jack is saying before he says "i'm sorry" in SNIT, but they are definitely there - one a a slight lip movement and the other one exhaled into Ennis' mouth. If something is being breathed instead of said - would their instruments still detect it as those "voice prints"? That would also kind of apply to the "f* me"s of FNIT...
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 19, 2017, 09:56:01 am
For me, the ultimate moment when Ennis openly admits - to himself and a third party - that he indeed loved Jack is when he asks Junior whether the Kurt fella loves her. "Openly" is, of course, totally in Ennis terms, a great exaggeration otherwise! When i watch this scene i see that Jr.'s news touch him at a certain place and stir up lots of raw emotions in him, but i strongly feel that he is not evading or hiding them (even from himself) anymore. The fact that he utters the word "love" implies so much about himself - actually much more than a simple concern about his daughter's well-being.

Yeah, I bet the typical aging divorced Wyoming ranch hand wouldn't necessarily ask something so romantic and personal because it would be out of character whether they had a secret gay lover or not.

Quote
And the way how Heath is pressing out this question out of Ennis shows me that he is aware of just how much he is revealing to Jr. in this moment. He is fully aware that by his question he is actually telling his daughter 'yes, i have loved. yes, i have lost it. yes, love IS something that must be cherished' - he is aware and he still asks it because he is not running or denying anything anymore.

I can see this, but I'm not sure I'd interpret it as that deliberate a reveal.

Quote
At the same time it just feels to me that Ennis is also talking to himself at this point. He needs some way to express his feelings which he cannot let out otherwise. I just can't picture Ennis talking to himself when nobody is around. I think when he does, he would talk to someone - like that "Jack, i swear..." But even then he cannot properly finish the sentence - maybe for the simple fact that there is actually nobody there to hear it (surely, not the only reason). I think Ennis needs somebody to be around so that he can voice his feelings and this opportunity he has in Jr.'s visit.

That could be, but if so you could argue that element exists in the shirt scene. Jack himself is no more literally "there" than he is in the trailer. But in the closet I think Ennis strongly senses Jack's presence, not necessarily spectrally but sort of embodied in the shirts as the symbol of Jack and everything Ennis has lost. I know this all gets very vague and ambiguous, but you know how people say they absolutely feel the presence of people they are intensely grieving? That could be going on here.

And later Ennis has, at least subliminally, created Jack's presence with the objects in his trailer.

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This translates back to Ennis and Jack into "Jack loves me?" "Yes, he loves me", and vice versa. It's a complex moment...

Asll set up by the "You're 19, you can do what you want, hunh?" Ennis was 19 that summer but didn't feel he could do what he wanted. Now he connects that to what he's come to understand about the importance of love and realizes he could have done what he wanted and should have gone for it.

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By the way, look at Jr.'s face when Ennis poses his question. She sees it all! She sees that her dad is revealing his heart including the heartbreak, that he is finally acknowledging his own love for someone, that he had come to terms with his own feelings and - she smiles. She is first surprised, then relieved and happy for him...

Maybe! I can never tell if it's "Yep, Dad's for sure had someone of his own all these years, and it wasn't Mom or Cassie" ... or it's "that's so sweet that Dad would ask me that and care about making sure."

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Sorry, this was now kind of OT, but let me say that this is why i think he is not saying "i love you" in the closet - simply because there is nobody there to hear it... ;(

But I think in a way, embodied in the shirts which literally form a person-like silhouette that he can hug around the "shoulders" like a person, he does feel there's somebody there to hear it.

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That would also kind of apply to the "f* me"s of FNIT...

Wait -- I'm not sure I even know about the "F* me"s. Whole new thread!  :laugh:


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 19, 2017, 08:32:09 pm
That could be, but if so you could argue that element exists in the shirt scene. Jack himself is no more literally "there" than he is in the trailer. But in the closet I think Ennis strongly senses Jack's presence, not necessarily spectrally but sort of embodied in the shirts as the symbol of Jack and everything Ennis has lost. I know this all gets very vague and ambiguous, but you know how people say they absolutely feel the presence of people they are intensely grieving? That could be going on here.

And later Ennis has, at least subliminally, created Jack's presence with the objects in his trailer.

I will not dispute this because there is indeed a possibility.
I just thought yesterday that Ennis would need a presence of a real person to talk because he is not used to talking at all. He spends at least 2 weeks with - living!! - Jack before he can speak something like 10 sentences, so i imagined how it must be like for him if there is nobody around at all - would he be able to utter such important revelations as "i love you" under those circumstances?...
Additionally, his hushed "i love you" (if it is one) is sooo quick - why would he hurry up like this?...

Maybe! I can never tell if it's "Yep, Dad's for sure had someone of his own all these years, and it wasn't Mom or Cassie" ... or it's "that's so sweet that Dad would ask me that and care about making sure."

Oh, i am SO sure that Jr. knew! And she definitely knew for sure since the divorce meeting. Considering Alma as Ennis' lost love? - No. Considering Cassie as Ennis' lost love? - Again, no. Jr knew it was neither her mom nor Cassie when she said that her daddy is maybe not the marrying type. Consider this - from the SS:

"...Ennis’s fishing trips once or twice a year with Jack Twist and never a vacation with her and the girls, his disinclination to step out and have any fun, his yearning for low paid, long-houred ranch work, his propensity to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed,..."


This basically means that he worked till late, almost no holidays (so, 7 days a week), got home and went to bed right away, no going out, no beers with friends or colleagues, probably no friends at all, no holidays with the family. BUT - regular fishing trips with his *only* friend JT. Just observing this she should understand that this friend was a special one. Then, after the divorce Jr sees how this special friend drives up to daddys place, how glad Ennis is to see him, how they hug (i bet she had not seen him hugging anyone else beside this!!)... Well, i wont say that this is like the ultimate proof, but i am sure Jr had known... That's why she looked so sad when Ennis came to pick her up and there was some woman in his truck. Jr knew that Ennis is just pretending again, but not actually happy. She was sad for him that he was still running away. That he was in a way betraying his own heart.


Wait -- I'm not sure I even know about the "F* me"s. Whole new thread!  :laugh:
I'm pretty sure this was part of those indiscernible moments of this thread ;).
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CellarDweller on June 19, 2017, 10:09:49 pm
this is one of those topics that will never be settled.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 20, 2017, 04:05:43 am
Yes, but i love love love this movie for giving us these hidden treasures to discuss for decades!
I'm just in constant state of awe....
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 21, 2017, 11:15:33 am
I just thought yesterday that Ennis would need a presence of a real person to talk because he is not used to talking at all. He spends at least 2 weeks with - living!! - Jack before he can speak something like 10 sentences, so i imagined how it must be like for him if there is nobody around at all - would he be able to utter such important revelations as "i love you" under those circumstances?...
Additionally, his hushed "i love you" (if it is one) is sooo quick - why would he hurry up like this?...

Well, the main reason that comes to mind is that if he said it loud and clear and in some passionate actory way, the scene would be ruined by sentimentality.

But also, just because he's not chatty with a guy he basically just met doesn't mean he never lets words go through his head, and sometimes in a really important moment -- like this one in the closet -- might even mouth them to himself.

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Oh, i am SO sure that Jr. knew! And she definitely knew for sure since the divorce meeting. Considering Alma as Ennis' lost love? - No. Considering Cassie as Ennis' lost love? - Again, no. Jr knew it was neither her mom nor Cassie when she said that her daddy is maybe not the marrying type. Consider this - from the SS:

"...Ennis’s fishing trips once or twice a year with Jack Twist and never a vacation with her and the girls, his disinclination to step out and have any fun, his yearning for low paid, long-houred ranch work, his propensity to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed,..."


This basically means that he worked till late, almost no holidays (so, 7 days a week), got home and went to bed right away, no going out, no beers with friends or colleagues, probably no friends at all, no holidays with the family. BUT - regular fishing trips with his *only* friend JT. Just observing this she should understand that this friend was a special one. Then, after the divorce Jr sees how this special friend drives up to daddys place, how glad Ennis is to see him, how they hug (i bet she had not seen him hugging anyone else beside this!!)... Well, i wont say that this is like the ultimate proof, but i am sure Jr had known... That's why she looked so sad when Ennis came to pick her up and there was some woman in his truck. Jr knew that Ennis is just pretending again, but not actually happy. She was sad for him that he was still running away. That he was in a way betraying his own heart.

I'm not saying there's no signs she could have noticed. And a 2017 teenager, even in rural Wyoming, would probably pick up on them. But a teenager from the 80s, in small-town WY (still a very homophobic place) no college or apparent experience living in other places, discerning signs and concluding that her dad is gay and not only having no problem with it, being so in favor of it that she's sad when he doesn't act on it? Uh ... maybe.

But consider this. My aunt lived with a woman all her life -- somewhere around 50 years. When the family gathered for Christmas or something, Doris always came with Sara, just like all the straight siblings brought their spouses, and everybody got along great and had a wonderful time. My dad's family grew up in Iowa, but they're fairly worldly; all of them went to college, most of them lived in a big city at some point, most of them are adamantly liberal.

When I was 18 or 19 -- about Jr.'s age! -- it dawned on me that Sara and Doris were most likely gay. So I asked my mom. My mom worked in a department store advertising department. Most of her male coworkers were gay, as were many of the women copywriters and artists. She was close friends at work with one or two lesbians. Everyone was completely out, my mom was absolutely fine with it. So she wasn't naive.

But when I asked her about Sara and Doris she paused and then said, completely sincerely (but again, nonjudgmentally), "You know, I never even thought about that."

Jr.'s behavior is ambiguous. For sure, she does seems to pick up on enough to know her dad is not typical in his romantic involvements and apparently decides to let be, let be.


Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 21, 2017, 08:16:27 pm
Hey, serious crayons!

Thank you very much for your story - quite interesting :).

I'm not saying there's no signs she could have noticed. And a 2017 teenager, even in rural Wyoming, would probably pick up on them. But a teenager from the 80s, in small-town WY (still a very homophobic place) no college or apparent experience living in other places, discerning signs and concluding that her dad is gay and not only having no problem with it, being so in favor of it that she's sad when he doesn't act on it? Uh ... maybe.

Uhm... I agree you might have a point there...  :D Maybe i'm thinking too much into it, but my version just makes me feel good, i guess. It warms my heart to know that there was indeed somebody around for Ennis who actually understood him and somehow guessed his "love issues" (for lack of a better word) and pain without Ennis ever needing to talk about it. I guess i really wish his solitude is not complete to that extent... It breaks my heart to know that he will never be able to talk about neither Jack as his love nor even Jack as his friend to anybody. How much more pain had Ennis deserved and for what in the first place?? Poor baby, he had been tortured by life his whole existence... :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 21, 2017, 08:51:51 pm
Uhm... I agree you might have a point there...  :D Maybe i'm thinking too much into it, but my version just makes me feel good, i guess.

I totally get that, the wish to see at least a glimmer of happiness in it. In my early days of watching the movie, I used to start out thinking, "Maybe it will come out differently this time."

I think my years of debating every moment and line, from an emotional, dramatic and metaphorical and subtextual perspective, probably turned me more practical, more conscious of the dramatic choices as opposed to what I'd wish for in "real life." That, I guess, is how I became resigned to their fate.

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It warms my heart to know that there was indeed somebody around for Ennis who actually understood him and somehow guessed his "love issues" (for lack of a better word) and pain without Ennis ever needing to talk about it.

Well, I definitely think she'll always be a loving supporting daughter, whether she literally thinks "My dad is gay, but that's cool" or just knows she loves her dad and he's a little mysterious but his choices -- aside from whether to attend her wedding -- are his own business.

FWIW, because I don't really see Ennis ever going back for cherry cake, I think both Mr. and Mrs. Twist "got" Ennis -- even more accurately than Jr., probably. They both totally understand the nature of Ennis and Jack's relationship. Mr. Twist might not be the most open-minded modern guy on the planet, but he definitely was less concerned about the nature of Jack and his friend's relationship than he was about getting help at the ranch. (The problem wasn't that Jack was bringing a man, it was that like most of his plans it never come to pass.) Having (relatively) open-minded parents might at least partly explain why Jack is more carefree about pursuing the sweet life as opposed to Ennis, whose dad lynches gay people, tortures them to death in fact, and then takes his young son to see it.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this movie, I think, is that it requires the audience to bring in its own cultural knowledge. Ennis' dad is literally the only person who unequivocally expresses vicious homophobia (assuming Jack's killers are in Ennis' imagination). Yet because we all basically know the situation-- 1960s-'80s Wyoming, small towns -- we can assume that everything and everybody is at least tinged with it. So there are all these ambiguous situations you could read either way.

Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 22, 2017, 02:18:41 am
the wish to see at least a glimmer of happiness in it.

I've been thinking... what is actually Ennis' and Jack's most happy moment together? No, wrong... What's actually their best shot at pure happiness, not "marred" (to borrow AP's word) by any of the following:
- shame
- guilt
- self-loathing
- uncertainty / doubt
- fear
- time flying
- suppressed feelings
- apparent lies
- violence / anger
(..?)
Did they every had such a moment? I think best shots were the dozy embrace and "prayer and thanks" up to the harmonica joke, but both were still not perfect. Probably for Jack the DE was the perfect pure happiness moment, but we don't know about Ennis. SNIT? If we go by the short story, there was no SNIT, and even no kissing on the mountain (how horrible is that??). So, by my terms their time on the mountain was far from happy either... Unfulfilled! - is the word for this whole story! We can say they had the greatest love on earth, they were soul mates and two parts of one whole as much as we want, but in reality we have to people who are not even able to talk from their hearts to each other because of their issues. In a way they are still alone even if they are together. You know what? Fuck that! What kind of story is that?!?!... *walksinangrycircles*

.....
I'm sorry i had to swear. I had one of those moments  :P Sometimes i get so angry at both of them..... Yeah, then i remember how true this story actually is and how hard it is to fight one's own demons, to break out of own patterns...


because I don't really see Ennis ever going back for cherry cake
Oh, you don't? I think i need another moment... to remind myself how realistic the story is....
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: BBM_victim on June 22, 2017, 02:32:57 am
I'm sorry, the other post was kind of OT, but i leave it as it is - i had to let it out!


Well, the main reason that comes to mind is that if he said it loud and clear and in some passionate actory way, the scene would be ruined by sentimentality.
Right, so you agree that a proper "i love you" would ruin the scene. I think so, too. It's better without it. He doesn't need to say it, Jack knew it anyway. Then if he is really saying it in such a rush that it seems almost comically, i think it's not making the scene better either, maybe even worse. Therefore, i choose to think he is just sobbing instead.  ;)
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: serious crayons on June 22, 2017, 10:19:51 am
Right, so you agree that a proper "i love you" would ruin the scene. I think so, too. It's better without it.

I don't know what you mean by "proper" in this case. I think a big dramatized line would be melodramatic and sentimentalized, yes. But I don't think it has to be expressed that way to be proper.

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He doesn't need to say it, Jack knew it anyway. Then if he is really saying it in such a rush that it seems almost comically, i think it's not making the scene better either, maybe even worse.

I don't think you and I are talking about quite the same thing. I don't think he's saying it out loud deliberately to inform Jack. And comically? I don't see much comedy in the scene.

Do you ever do things like, oh, you get out to your car and realize you left your keys in the house and you actually whisper/mutter "Oh, I need my keys" or something like that? (If you don't have a car or house, adjust the circumstances accordingly.) You're not telling it to anyone. You're not conveying information. You don't need to verbalize it aloud because the thought is already in your head and you're practically already turning back toward the house. But still, you say it.

Or maybe that's just me.

Anyway, that's kind of how I see this. Overcome with emotion, he actually forms the words. He's not making a declaration to an actual Jack he imagines is hovering there, anymore than he's doing that when he says "Jack, I swear ..." He's just saying it because he's expressing thoughts in the privacy of his own solitude.

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Therefore, i choose to think he is just sobbing instead.  ;)

OK!  :)



Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: milomorris on June 23, 2017, 03:01:17 pm
And nice to see you around these parts, by the way!  :)

Good to be seen. Haven't posted in a while.
Title: Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
Post by: CellarDweller on July 01, 2017, 11:46:16 am
Do you ever do things like, oh, you get out to your car and realize you left your keys in the house and you actually whisper/mutter "Oh, I need my keys" or something like that? (If you don't have a car or house, adjust the circumstances accordingly.) You're not telling it to anyone. You're not conveying information. You don't need to verbalize it aloud because the thought is already in your head and you're practically already turning back toward the house. But still, you say it.

Oh, that's actually a good explanation.