Author Topic: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move-- by CaseyCornelius  (Read 22908 times)

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Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 22:37:20 )   


UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 13:36:48
POSSIBLE SPOILER





Several threads on the site have debated Jack's and Ennis's last meeting in the film and whether it presents the possibility that Jack has had enough and is ready to 'move on' out of frustration with Ennis's inability to commit. One can speculate strongly that Jack has already initiated another affair with Randall, the Childress ranch foreman with the talkative wife who essentially propositions Jack outside the dance - an elaborate topic already taking up a number of threads.

Ang Lee, however, is able to suggest it with a unique camera move I have never previously seen used in film. For those who have seen the film, remember that as Jack faces the mountain lake and listens to Ennis's litany of excuses, at this point familiar to Jack, why he can't meet in August the camera is focused on Jack, 'hiding' Ennis behind him. Then the camera begins to track to the left holding Jack stationary in the foreground as Ennis in the background, but still in focus, emerges into the frame listing his options. I was reminded of a scale tipping to one side, as if Jack is weighing the discussion and how he will react to it. The camera even seems to oscillate or quiver hesitantly from the momentum as it is poised on the image including both of them - foreground and background. Then, the camera reverses direction and tracks back across Jack to the right [ the scale allusion confirmed ] as Ennis 'disappears' once more behind Jack to eventually emerge to Jack's right, this time blurred and SLIGHTLY OUT OF FOCUS.
What more economical way for Lee to show Jack's decision, in 'weighing' the options, to finally in exasperation give up on the excuses Ennis offers and lose Ennis as his sole emotional 'focus'. I know the scene ends with the two of them seeming to 'torque' things back to the way they were. However, I can't help but think that Ang Lee has shown his hand as far as he's concerned with this elaborate CONTINUOUS camera move.
I was so taken with the dialogue in the scene and the emotional content in my first few viewings of the film that I completely missed this. A complex camera move which would have required a great deal of planning, experimentation, and rehearsal with the actors, and demanded considerable expertise in order to show Ennis emerging out from behind Jack both in focus and out of focus within the same continuous shot.
But, it's there, clear as day. A subtle but brilliant camera move by Ang Lee and Director of Photography, Rodrigo Prieto, as innovative and revealing as other of the greatest camera moves used by Michelangelo Antonioni, Andrei Tarkovsky, and Ingmar Bergman.
If someone else knows of this being used previously in film history, let's talk.

I am astonished more and more with every viewing of this miracle of a film.

Re: Jack and Ennis - Last Meeting and a Unique Camera Move   
by - madhatters1983 (Sun Jan 1 2006 22:40:32 )   


Ang Lee is a genius. Throughout the entire movie the cinematography was astonishing


Re: Jack and Ennis - Last Meeting and a Unique Camera Move   
by - retropian (Sun Jan 1 2006 22:49:17 )   

Wow, Casey, you are effing brilliant in your observations! I didn't catch that at all and probably would not have if you hadn't pointed it out. I'm blown away. I've seen BBM 3 times so far. I'll probably go again tommorrow, and every time new details emerge. Ang lee is a cinematic genius. I thought Crouching Tiger was a masterpiece, but this movie exceeds even that.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 23:16:54 )
   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 07:30:23
retropian:

Amen! I'm all for including Ang Lee in the pantheon of directors. Having seen the film [only!] five times, I'm struck by how Lee's positioning and juxtaposition of visual material within the frame to symbolically express so much more than the narrative is exactly like that of Michelangelo Antonioni. So much of the film reminded me of early Antonioni, expecially L'Avventura.

One instance is the way in the opening, 'silent' sequence where the two men wait in front of Aguirre's trailer, Lee's hommage to a typical Western showdown, Ennis is always framed surrounded by a wall - suggesting his
hemmed-in personality - while Jack is shot with half of the frame showing a landscape in the distance - his freer, more liberated spirit.

Reliving the film in my mind's eye, I remember that throughout the film whenever they are in conversation Ennis is always looking away, positioned in the frame at 'right angles' to Jack facing toward or away from the camera, while Jack is invariably in direct profile, facing and addressing Ennis directly. To me this reinforces the constant tension between the two of them in how they see their relationship, Ennis always deflecting and never able to admit the depth of emotion he feels for Jack.

Ennis rarely embraces Jack in a full frontal embrace, unless he's wrestling or fighting with him, except for the reunion embrace/kiss where he is clearly 'out of control' - that 'thing grabbing a hold of us' - which terrifies him. Aided by info from Proulx's original story, the viewer is aware that even in that wonderful, tender flashback moment from their first summer on Brokeback inserted into the scene of their final meeting Ennis is always incapable of willingly embracing Jack "because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held". His only willing, intentional, loving full-frontal embrace of Jack is the symbolic one of Ennis embracing the bloodied shirts after discovering them in Jack's family home.

And the final shot of the whole film is pure Antonioni. The closed closet door containing the cult objects-the shirts and mountain postcard-in the left half of the frame juxtaposed with the open window looking out on the blue sky, green corn stalks and ripening golden grain on the right implying the freedom of multi-seasonal nature . What more perfect summation could there for the contrasting personalities of Ennis and Jack. OR the larger theme of the conflict between having to hide the true nature of your love from the larger world and the freedom afforded by being in the scenic natural world, apart from societal prejudice. It's a final shot which has numerous parallels to their first scene together and summarizes the visual symbolism throughout.

Just some intial thoughts. I know that this film will be studied for years to come and that Ang Lee is destined to join the pantheon of truly great and accomplished film artists.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - starboardlight (Sun Jan 1 2006 23:23:57 )   


wow. Casey, another brilliant post. Like you, I've seen this five times, and I have yet to scratch the surface of that scene. I guess I have to give it up for the power of the acting, the writing, and the direction, that I didn't notice the camera move. I did begin to take note of Ennis emerging behind Jack, but every time, my emotions takes over and I simply follow the story. Thank you for this insightful observation.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 23:31:39 )   


starboardlight:

Every time I've seen the film, I've been alone and been so overwhelmed by this scene that I break into tears. But, this last time, I tried to hold myself together as I was with someone else, and forced myself to concentrate on the craft of the scene. Otherwise, I, like you, have been unable to see much else than the pure essence of Ang Lee's vision from an emotional and visceral perspective.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - BannerHill (Mon Jan 2 2006 02:38:54 )   


I noticed the unusual camera move but couldn't figure out what it meant. Thank you for the remarkable insight


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Mon Jan 2 2006 02:54:48 )
   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 03:07:51
oh wow I can't wait to see that shot. Thanks so much for describing it so beautifully. I can see it now!

Ang Lee's use of form is so fascinating to any film student. I too love Antonioni - are you thinking of The Passenger and that shot going through the prison bars?

I loved so many of the shots in Ice Storm that really explained the movie in subtle ways the dialogue didn't. That scene where Kevin Kline is walking through the wood holding Christina Ricci in his arms, he marching forward to his troubled marriage, she looking back over his shoulder at her disappearing childhood.

I can only go on the trailer for this scene: I remember that after Ennis breaks down, Jack grabs him and holds him as Ennis sobs. It always struck me as the kind of embrace that two people make when they're about to break up. There are tears, but no words, because there's nothing left to be said. It's all so sad.

And then Jack watches Ennis go away, again, just like the first summer when he had to watch Ennis leave, and say goodbye silently. This time it's for good. I think you are right. Jack had made his decision and it was heartbreaking for him.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Mon Jan 2 2006 04:21:31 )   


Casey, thanks for yet another illuminating post. Your postings and the discussions you've initiated have added a whole dimension to my understanding of this film, and of filmmaking in general.

I'm struck by how Lee's positioning and juxtaposition of visual material within the frame to symbolically express so much more than the narrative is exactly like that of Michelangelo Antonioni.

I remember reading somewhere that Lee has cited Antonioni as one of his strongest influences. I have not seen any of Antonioni's films, but I guess I will have to now.

And the final shot of the whole film is pure Antonioni. The closed closet door containing the cult objects-the shirts and mountain postcard-in the left half of the frame juxtaposed with the open window looking out on the blue sky, green corn stalks and ripening golden grain on the right implying the freedom of multi-seasonal nature.

There's yet another interpretation of this shot that comes to my mind. In the scene leading up to this shot, Alma Jr talks to her father about her plans to marry. Alma Jr, who already understands her father better than her mother did, is engaged to a boy named "Curt", a word that describes Ennis' demeanour. Ennis' one question about her intentions is to ask if Curt loves her -- as though wishing for reassurance that his own mistakes will not be repeated. It strikes me that there is a theme of generational renewal here, and I wonder if it is symbolically tied to the idea of the cyclical renewal of nature implied by the shot of the window.

There's another literary/musical reference that this closing shot irresistibly brings to mind for me, although I have no reason to think that it's anything other than coincidental. It's from The Song of the Earth, a setting by the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler of a collection of Chinese poems (in German translation). These (in English) are the words that end the work:


He alighted from his horse and handed
him the drink of farewell.
He asked him whither he was going,
And also why it had to be.
He spoke, his voice was veiled:
You, my friend --
Fortune was not kind to me in this world!
Whither I go? I go,
I wander in the mountains,
I seek rest for my lonely heart!
I journey to the homeland,
to my resting-place;
I shall never again go seeking the far distance.
My heart is still and awaits its hour!

The dear earth everywhere
Blossoms in spring and grows green again!
Everywhere and eternally the distance
shines bright and blue!
Eternally ... eternally ...


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 08:03:12 )
   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 13:44:47
naun:
Thank so much for adding your thoughts regarding the photography and the invoking of Mahler's "Das Lied von der Erde".

I've yet to read anything that's been written about the filmic influences on Ang Lee, so I was heartened by your stating that he's cited Antonioni as a major influence. From my second viewing of the film, the Antonioni-esque camera work and blocking of various objects within the frame was always nagging at me as familiar.

I love your analysis of the final shot as well. It's a wonderful layering to what's there and I can't see why that final, richly detailed and considered shot cannot carry a numer of symbolic intentions. Good observation of the emotive name of 'Curt' to describe Alma, Jr.'s betrothed.

I'm floored by the Mahler reference and your invoking the lines, by either Mong Koo Yen or Wang Wei, from 'Der Abschied' - The Farewell with reference to the final shot. Anywhere you know if we can find out if it might have been an influence - either via an Ang Lee interest in Mahler OR, and more likely, from his familiar with the original poetry? One of the threads on the Dave Cullen site, with which I know you're familiar as you consulted it for one of your replies to the Deliberate Classical References thread, has someone talking about the influence of Chinese poetic and mythic symbolism on Brokeback Mountain. Somewhere around pages 35-45 of the
General Discussion thread an astute poster mentions that the image of a full moon invokes union with a faithful lover and/or friend either in close proximity or from a distance, where both regard the same moon.
I'm struck by the number of times in the film that 'the boys' are together juxtaposed with that prominent image. The kicker is that, in addition to the same leave-taking which you quote, earlier in the same poem, 'Der Abschied' that very moon and the constant images of sunset throughout the film are invoked as well [translation from the Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau Book of Lieder]:

The sun departs behind the hills,
into all valleys descends the evening
with its shadows full of freshness.

Oh see, like a silver bark,
the moon slips over the sky's blue lake.
I feel the wafting of a gentle breeze beyond the sombre spruces!

***

I long, O friend, at your side
to enjoy the beauty of this evening,--
where are you? You leave me long alone!


I love the Mahler setting of that fantastic poetry and it's wonderful to have it linked thematically to this film. My inner sense is that it cannot be a co-incidence as NOTHING and NONE of the details of this minutely considered film could possibly be accidental or arbitrary.



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - seanhartley (Mon Jan 2 2006 09:03:43 )   


the thought of them breaking up is too much for me to bear!!! maybe they didn't...after all, Ennis still went on to send Jack that final postcard about November, planning on meeting like usual. its just too sad.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 11:56:50 )   


UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 13:48:32
naun:

Thought of another aspect regarding the final shot and your observation that it might suggest a 'cyclical renewal'.

Another Antoninoi-esque device is the use of color symbolism which Ang Lee uses throughout the film by constantly identifying a 'wheat / brown' color with Ennis and a 'sky / indigo / aqua blue' with Jack. I knocked myself on the head upon realizing that those two colors are layered in that final shot - from the top of the window down - the sky, the golden grain, with, may I suggest [?], the green of the ripening corn stalks suggesting the generational renewal of Alma, Jr.'s betrothal and the shattering sea-change in Ennis's behavior which it connotes.

The contrasting parallels with Ennis's earlier life are unmistakable:
1] She's pledging her love to another man who, she assures Ennis, loves her in return. Contrast that with Ennis's incessant inability to ever openly pledge the same to Jack.
[I get teary at the thought that this is the first time we EVER hear Ennis speak the word 'love' in the film. The only other character to verbalize it is Cassie with - "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."]
2] Ennis, after his initial 'humming and hawing' and starting to give one of his habitual reticent excuses as to why he won't be able to attend her wedding, demonstratively relents and toasts her.
3] He uses for the first time the phatic, chatty language we always associate with Jack in the film - his use of the phrase "You know what?" is unmistakably more Jack-like and a 'wastage of words' not indicative of the previously taciturn Ennis.


Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Wooski (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:30:02 )   

I'm not so sure Jack had given up on Ennis. When youre in love with someone its so difficult to walk away. Who knows what would have happenned if Jack had not died. I'm sure Annie Proulx doesnt know either.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Julie01 (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:48:35 )   
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I have not yet cried in the film, but the intelligence and sensitivity of the men discussing it in this thread...brought me pretty close.



We see those in the light,
But those in darkness,
We don't see,

Bertolt Brecht


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Belindah (Mon Jan 2 2006 13:05:05 )   

Anybody else get the impression that Prieto's out of work? He's posting way too much here.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - ayang71 (Mon Jan 2 2006 13:16:08 )   

Wang Wei is a very famous Chinese poet around 1000 years ago. ALmost every elementary school in Taiwan teaches one or two of his poems. It's very possible Ang Lee is inspired by Wang Wei's poem for the setting or simply just for his personal homage to his lost father or friend. Now you mentioned, I think it's a very interesting and muti-layered reading of the film.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - starboardlight (Mon Jan 2 2006 14:05:10 )   

I'm sure Annie Proulx doesnt know either.


actually, in the short story, they don't break up. "Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

Despite Casey's brilliant observation, I prefer to hang on to these lines, and believe that had Jack had not decided to leave Ennis.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - GregoriusInLA (Mon Jan 2 2006 14:31:34 )   

"There's another literary/musical reference that this closing shot irresistibly brings to mind for me, although I have no reason to think that it's anything other than coincidental. It's from The Song of the Earth, a setting by the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler of a collection of Chinese poems (in German translation)."

Wow! I love your observation--incredibly astute.

I always felt that Mahler's text for "Das Lied," which was drawn from Hans Bethge's "Chinese Flute," was more of a stylization, rather than an actual translation, of poems by Li-Tai-Po.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Julie01 (Mon Jan 2 2006 14:52:12 )   

They are NOT "breaking up," but Jack is, in the future, going to allow himself a deeper level of sexual attachment to other men--that's what all the out-of-focus jazz is all about. If Ennis would call, he'd still come running! And, apparently, it was his somewhat more open lifestyle with the neighboring rancher that--got him killed. (For those who have still not read the book, it's much clearer there--already discussed).

We see those in the light,
But those in darkness,
We don't see,

Bertolt Brecht

Hey---read...I ordered Proulx' Close Range; Story to Screenplay: Brokeback Mountain; Hain's Mysterious Skin--and I'm going to buy the Shipping News once my finances have recovered. For the price of one viewing of BBM, for you non-youths and non-old folks (like me!), you can buy the short story--the way Proulx wanted it to be origionally, not the way the New Yorker insisterd on printing it (I think I'll get myself one of those, too, though...)


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - littledarlin (Mon Jan 2 2006 14:52:53 )   

i have to go see this again. now. i really appreciate your points of view. you definitely have an eye. this is something i'm going to be looking out for, but as others have said, by that point into the movie you're so involved with the plot and characters it's hard to think about anything else. it's just such a moving film. i'm getting nauseated just thinking about it. in the best way possible, though. lol


Brokeback Mountain got me good


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 15:09:07 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 15:11:27
tomwspoon:

I may have overstated it when I referred to Jack as 'moving on' from Ennis. I don't think he ever really could have abandoned Ennis and I'll admit agreeing with rvognar01 in the post immediately preceding this one who suggests that the 'out of focus' characteristic alludes to Jack allowing a deeper level of sexual attachment to other men, specifically Randall as it turns out. Thanks rovgnar01, I am more sympathetic with your interpretation.

I will, tomwspoon, maintain that the 'weight in the balance' camera move is meant to show us something of Jack's internal state, so whether Ennis is aware of it or not is a moot point. It's also striking that it's a filmic device that deliberately implies, for the first time in the film, some psychic separation, 'a fork in the road', between the two of them. Though, I want to maintain with Annie Proulx, that they do manage by the end of this scene to 'torque' things back to where they were.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - jsreeniv (Mon Jan 2 2006 15:10:46 )   

I noticed that shot too, and it was one of my favorites in the movie. I interpreted the camera oscillation as Jack's reaction to Ennis's words, the same words and excuses he's heard over and over again - were I subtitling Jack's thoughts at that moment, I would choose, "blah, blah, blah...here goes Ennis again." Even though J and E are both standing STILL, the optical illusion is of Ennis moving, or of Jack literally "turning Ennis around" in his mind, assessing his commitment and coming out disappointed.

Some other great shots were those of Ennis scrambling through his apartment getting ready to take off with Jack. I can't remember if those were long tracking shots or not, but they seemed very fluid and well-choreographed.



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 15:20:00 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 15:32:26
jsreeniv:

You're spot on with your phrase "Jack literally 'turning Ennis around' in his mind".
Makes the affective content of the image clearer and even more compelling to me. Thank you.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Mon Jan 2 2006 15:44:29 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 18:13:43
It's very possible Ang Lee is inspired by Wang Wei's poem for the setting or simply just for his personal homage to his lost father or friend.

Homage to his father -- what a striking thought. Annie Proulx said herself in an interview that she thought Ang Lee had put some of his grief for his recently deceased father, with whom he had had a difficult relationship, into the making of this film. It is just conceivable that there is an autobiographical element in the film's closing image. The "shrine" on the left-hand side could be seen as a symbol of reconciliation between father and son. Could it be significant that Taiwan is extremely mountainous just like the picture on the postcard, and that when Ang Lee first left Taiwan to study in America, he came to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, which is surrounded for miles and miles by exactly the kind of crop fields you see through the window on the right-hand side? (There is also a historic experimental crop field right in the middle of campus; I know because I happen to work at this university.)

Am I getting carried away?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - mlewisusc (Mon Jan 2 2006 16:16:58 )   

Could this "psychic separation" also be seen as a foreshadowing of Jack's impending demise? Unquestionably an important "fork" in their road together - more significant that Jack opening himself up to deeper involvment with other men. I am very attracted to your argument that it shows Jack's point of view in weighing Ennis and their relationship at that point in his mind, but perhaps the symbol is from the silent, omniscient "narrator" of the film directly to the audience?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Mon Jan 2 2006 16:27:45 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 20:50:37
Thanks for these further thoughts. I'm glad I wasn't totally off the mark with these speculations!

Anywhere you know if we can find out if it might have been an influence - either via an Ang Lee interest in Mahler OR, and more likely, from his familiar with the original poetry?

I would assume it would have had to come from Mahler, since (at least according to my CD booklet) the last few lines evoking the green earth and the blue sky were added by him -- clearly in order to recapitulate the lines from the first song in the cycle (by a different poet) which contain the same images.

I have no idea what Ang Lee's musical interests are, and there's no way you could tell from his films, which have soundtracks that are as various as their settings. But even if the reference isn't deliberate, the image could still be part of an ancestral stock of cultural images that Ang Lee carries around in his head; ayang71 mentions that Wang Wei is taught in Taiwanese schools. And of course, Ang Lee must be a person who can digest a vast amount of cultural information of all kinds, otherwise he couldn't possibly make the films that he does.

I'd love to have a more definite answer, though.

Somewhere around pages 35-45 of the General Discussion thread [on the Dave Cullen site] an astute poster mentions that the image of a full moon invokes union with a faithful lover and/or friend either in close proximity or from a distance, where both regard the same moon.

Originally I had assumed that the shots of the moon in BBM were a remnant of the line in the short story, much discussed on this board, where Ennis feels like "pawing the white out of the moon". But of course if the Das Lied reference holds up, the image assumes a further layer of significance.

I've come across that idea of two people regarding the same moon only once before, in Elizabeth Jolley's novel "My Father's Moon", but evidently it's had wider currency than that. It's certainly a very powerful reading of that image.

Several other things struck me about the passage from Das Lied that I quoted: the mention of the horseman, the farewell, and the wish (like Jack's) for a final resting-place in the mountains.

I haven't looked at the Dave Cullen site for a while. It sounds like it would be worth spending some time there.



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Mon Jan 2 2006 16:41:07 )   

A couple more thoughts on the "sea-change" theory:


1] She's pledging her love to another man who, she assures Ennis, loves her in return. Contrast that with Ennis's incessant inability to ever openly pledge the same to Jack.
[I get teary at the thought that this is the first time we EVER hear Ennis speak the word 'love' in the film. The only other character to verbalize it is Cassie with - "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."]

Locksley_Hall made what struck me (and others) as an inspired observation in another thread when she likened Ennis' "I swear", in the light of the Alma Jr scene, to a marriage vow. That would be the biggest change of all.


2] Ennis, after his initial 'humming and hawing' and starting to give one of his habitual reticent excuses as to why he won't be able to attend her wedding, demonstratively relents and toasts her.


In all the other scenes his excuses are about work commitments. Here he says, astonishingly for him, "They'll have to find themselves another cowboy".

I'm no optimist by nature, but I would dearly like to find positive connotations in the closing scenes of this film.



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 20:07:48 )   

nene2:

If you're a fan of the closet shot, check out the extensive Deliberate Classical References thread where a number of posters have had pertinent, perceptive observations and interpretations of that scene.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 21:31:34 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 21:33:21
naun:

Wonderful your suggesting an auto-biographical intent and a hommage to Lee's father in that final shot. I'd read that quote from Proulx, but hadn't considered that Lee might have integrated his grief in the process of making the film in some tangible form.

Of course you're not getting carried away. Who cares if it's a 'stretch'. This whole thread is such and it's inspiring to banter and juggle such thoughts.
To quote Risely in Merchant/Ivory's 'Maurice' [I don't believe the line is from E.M. Forster's novel.] --"Talk, Talk, Talk. Only by talking will we caper upon the summit."

And thanks for bringing to mind the corn fields of Illinois. I'm Canadian, but did graduate work at Urbana-Champaign in the mid-1980s. I was mindful that Lee had studied Theater there, but had not considered that singular landscape as applicable to the film - possibly because I know it was shot within an hour's drive of where I now live.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Ellemeno (Mon Jan 2 2006 22:17:24 )   

Thank you. Because I had read this thread, I was able to observe and appreciate the camera angles when I saw it for a second time tonight. I was also able to wow the people in front of me by telling them about them. I was clear with them that these were not my own original insights. :)

peace on earth, goodwill to all

Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - bradford-5 (Mon Jan 2 2006 22:52:26 )   

I noticed that move too, though I hadn't analysed its meaning yet, as deeply as you have. very good.

I'll probably use this scene in future film classes.

I'm glad that so many people are seeing this film multiple times, and picking up on the rest of the artistry that goes into the making of a great film, besides the performances.

Steven Bradford
Tempe Arizona


(Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - pkdetroit (Tue Jan 3 2006 08:56:16 )   

Thank you all for such an intelligent and insightful discussion.

Let me add my take on the significance of the full moon...it makes a lot of people crazy enough to do what they normally would not.

"It was the Summer that Sebastian and I went to the Incantadas"


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Wooski (Tue Jan 3 2006 11:55:50 )   

I didnt think they did.

I still dont think Annie would know what would have happenned if Jack had not died. I'd like to think that sitting in that little trailer Ennis would have come round to spending more time with Jack. However I think Ennis only really understood what he had with Jack when he lost him forever. Too late then. For me having regrets like that must be unbearable.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 3 2006 21:47:29 )   

naun:
Forgot to mention the most obvious parallel between Ennis and Alma, Jr..
She has found true love at the age of 19, the same age he did with Jack.
The contrast is that she can express it openly and self-assuredly -- he never could, except for that final "Jack, I swear--" to his closet door. Heart-breaking !!

Ennis/Alma Scene   
by - Lurcher-2 (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:23:53 )   

"I'm no optimist by nature, but I would dearly like to find positive connotations in the closing scenes of this film." - Naun

Ang Lee said he put this scene in because he wanted to end with something "redemptive."


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 14:31:31 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 14:37:31
spottedreptile:

Glad that you're an Antonioni fan -- seems that the majority of flm buffs today have a only a cursory knowledge of his incredible revamping of cinematic technique in the early '60s..

I wasn't really thinking of The Passenger and that final historic 9 minute [?] long tracking shot through the bars of the hotel/pensione [I believe]. So much of the camera work in that is employed to deal with the larger themes of identity, consciousness, personality, and its transference.

Ang Lee's 'Antonioni-esque' qualities seemed to me employ effects from Antonioni's earlier work, most noticeably L'Avventura and The Red Desert: the former for the way Lee places actors, building, objects within the frame and the latter for use of pure color symbolism, both with regard to identifying traits of Ennis and Jack and the color contrasts between civilization and nature.

In addition to the Antonioni moments I've indicated in previous posts, I recall the use of the passing train in the the 8th or 9th shot of the film, the camera 'peering' between the cars at Ennis, as a means of showing the passing of time, perhaps framing and defining Ennis as a contemporary, habitual, work-a-day, mechanized individual -- a similar famous train shot is for the same purpose in L'Avventura.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Wed Jan 4 2006 15:11:51 )   

And wasn't Alma Jr's previous boyfriend named Troy? There's another classical reference for you: the love that led to tragic conflict. Smart girl, young Alma.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - retropian (Wed Jan 4 2006 16:02:51 )   

In regards to this scene, another poster elsewhere on the board suggested that it also symbolised how Jack is the Sun around which Ennis is in helpless orbit. I though that was pretty cool. I think in that scene Jack has come to the end of his rope with Ennis and is seriously contempating leaving him. Had he lived he may have done so at some point in the future.


Re: Ennis/Alma Scene   
by - naun (Wed Jan 4 2006 16:28:48 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 17:12:46
Ang Lee said he put this scene in because he wanted to end with something "redemptive."

Thanks, I hadn't read that. Just this morning I put on a scene from "The Ice Storm" that another poster mentioned, the one where the father and daughter walk home after the infamous Nixon mask scene where they catch each other fooling around at the neighbours'. "Redemptive" is just the right word to describe it. Almost nothing happens on the screen, just a couple of lines of dialogue and a glance exchanged, then the father picks up the daughter, and yet the mood of recrimination is transformed into a kind of sublimated regret.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - lemonadestand2003 (Wed Jan 4 2006 16:49:47 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 17:00:02
I had read in an interesting interview that Ang said what he liked about American actors ( I am sure he meant Australian also) is that they seem more comfortable with close penetrating camera angles. He said the British actors were better and more comfortable with dialogue but sometimes felt Ang's camera angles were intrusive.

I think both Heath and Jake let him do what he needed to do to tell the story because I notice many shots were the kind of camera angles that would make an actor uncomfortable. Ang knows why they work.

The one that stands out for me is when Ennis says "this is a one shot deal" and he is shot from the back and not the front. So much more powerful than if he had shot the scene with the camera facing him.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 21:12:45 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 21:15:07
retropian:

Part of the brilliance of the camera movement under discussion is that it can convincingly suggest all of the images which posters have conceived:

1] Ennis in helpless orbit, uncontrollable really, around Jack - hence his desparate plea later on in the scene for Jack to just let him be, not being able to stand it.

2] Jack weighing what Ennis is saying to him as a prelude to having to possibly make a decision regarding him - though it turns out later in the scene that Jack is not capable of 'quitting him' in any way. Both of them have been bound together from their first encounter on Brokeback into a 'blood-brotherhood' - symbolized in the talisman of the shirts which Jack guards.

3] Jack turning Ennis around in his mind, similarly to number 2, but reacting as if to say "same old, same old".

and more. It's so organic and wonderfully ambiguous in suggeting all of the above.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - The_Naked_Librarian (Thu Jan 5 2006 16:44:25 )   

Casey, I've learned a lesson from this movie, and I'm going to say what Ennis and Jack couldn't: I love you.

Wanna go fishing?
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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Thu Jan 5 2006 20:25:04 )   

this is the most beautiful thread on this board. Love all the insights and am amazed by everybody's attention to detail. I plan on seeing it 4 times the first day, just to absorb all I can before I go totally gaga.

I guess nobody agrees with me that Jack was considering breaking up with Ennis. Fair enough. It definitely doesn't suggest it in the book, just a thought of mine that came from watching the trailer and reading what others had said about that scene. I'll see if I feel the same when seeing the film.

The train shot of Ennis at the start, Casey, is really interesting to me, and a few discussed this on another thread about the symbolism of it. But another idea popped into my head about the final shot where the screen is split between the waving grass and the trailer. Ang does use a lot of split screens. I wonder if this one could be referring to the last sentence in the book, the one about the space between what Ennis knew and what he tried to believe.

Could 'what he knew' be the shirts/trailer (i.e. their relationship, Ennis finally figured out what he and Jack were about), and 'what he tried to believe' be the grassy field and the sky (the image of a perfect nature - the land, the reference to the beginning of the film with the waving grass, iow, that life just goes on as usual.)

The relationship - the reality; the perfect landscape - the illusion of life. Ennis' connection with the land, and his connection with Jack. In the beginning on Brokeback, the two things were part of each other, but now they are separated. The West, and the people in it, have drifted apart from each other.

I'm starting to babble. Someone help me out here?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - mlewisusc (Thu Jan 5 2006 20:32:32 )   

Keep babbling. Love it. Really tried to think through what "what he knew" and "what he believed" was. Your post helped.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Thu Jan 5 2006 21:07:49 )   

But another idea popped into my head about the final shot where the screen is split between the waving grass and the trailer. Ang does use a lot of split screens. I wonder if this one could be referring to the last sentence in the book, the one about the space between what Ennis knew and what he tried to believe.

Wow.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - retropian (Fri Jan 6 2006 02:07:11 )   

Casy.
I concur. A film that will be studied as long as cinema exists. This is IMHO, the most artistically successful film in many years. Actually I can't think of a film that has ever moved me as this one has. Many people are admitting that even though they were not overly impressed or moved after leaving the theater, BBM haunts them for days until they are forced to confront the feelings it has evoked. The impact of great art.

I enjoy your posts Casy. Insightful and erudite.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Fri Jan 6 2006 03:45:42 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 03:47:03
I agree, great camera move most likely on Rodrigo Prieto's part as the DP. But I've seen this shot and technique many times before in the works of Vittorio Storaro, Jean-Jacques Castres, early shorts by David Fincher, Michael Bay, Gerard de Thame, and a few others.

But Ang's use was no less brilliant.


"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 11 2006 12:40:53 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 12:45:56
flashframe777:

Would you remember which film photographed by Storaro the same camera effect is used? I'm a huge fan of his work and can't recall it being used - one of the Bertolucci films? The execution of it seems so seamless and unobtrusive in Brokeback, I'd missed 'noticing' it until I'd seen the film for the 4th time and was able to take in the photography details. It was so perfectly done that I thought the image of Ennis appearing out of focus on the right side of Jack might have been a lab of CGI effect. But, no, a more recent viewing confirmed that it's all amazing 'manual' focus and depth of field effect.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Wed Jan 11 2006 12:48:34 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 12:49:36
I can't remember which film shot by Storaro it was. But I did work with Jean-Jacques Castres (a popular french shorts/commercial director) who employed that shot in a commercial he did about eyeglasses...which made perfect sense back the (about 1993). I've seen similar shots like this before on the reels of many DPs like Gerard de Thame and Pascal LeBeque.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Flickfan-3 (Wed Jan 11 2006 12:56:18 )   

glad to see your reference to their reunions and the full moon--I too noticed that the second time around--full moon is usually described as lovers' moon because you can sneak around outside w/o need for lights and it is symbolically the most fruitful time of the month, reflecting the full-body of harvest grain or pregnant women.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:01:48 )   

Flickfan-3...that full moon tent scene kind of replaces for me the missing passage from the book about Ennis feeling as though he could paw the moon. So what we see in some odd sequence is a shot of the full moon, immediately followed by Jack taking Ennis' paw, and placing it on his hot spot. It's a stretch...but still I think of that.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 11 2006 21:33:42 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 21:54:02
flashframe777:

I'm interested in this particular camera move as it seems to be the only technically complex effect in the film, as far as I can see. Would you agree? The rest of the film has magnificent, subtle work, but nothing drawing attention to itself per se. I'm not saying that Lee and Prieto were striving for an 'arty' effect, but the lake scene struck me, befitting the emotional climax of the film, as having the most complex work. Or am I wrong in assuming that the use of the figure of Jack to 'wipe' the screen essentially with the two views of Ennis in and out of focus to either side would be a particularly tricky effect to execute. I'd value your professional opinion.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Wed Jan 11 2006 21:44:02 )   

I saw the film the other night and looked for this shot in particular. I must say it's very well done, so subtle it's easy to miss. But in terms of the subtext it adds to the story I think it's brilliant and so appropriate. Not a flashy effect for its own sake, but a crucial addition to the inner workings of Jack's mind, whatever you think they are.

I'm so glad it wasn't a post-production effect. That would have disappointed me so much.

But I'd be very interested in how it was done technically and if it has been used before, if it has a name i.e. the Bertolucci [insert name] effect or something like that.

I have a 6 month digital subscription to American Cinematographer and there is a really nice (long) article on Rodrigo Prieto and the work he did on Brokeback. No mention of that shot, but I can email a copy to anyone who is particularly interested in finding out more about his work on BBM. PM me if you like.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 11 2006 21:58:22 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 21:59:04
spottedreptile:

Pleased that we share the same high opinion of the subtle work in Brokeback. flashframe777 would seem to the person to ask about the specific effect and it's name, if it has one, which we're discussing. I'm hoping they'll continue to respond. I, for one, would be grateful for the article on Prieto if you wouldn't mind sending it.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:01:23 )   

no probs Casey. If you PM me your email address I'll send it on.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:16:21 )   

Hey Casey,

I think you are right about the lake scene being the most complex, in terms of camera work. That move is not too tricky to coordinate if you're a great cinematographer, and you really know how to pull focus or have a good focus puller. It came across as a subtle visual narrative to me, as opposed to and "arty" thing. There are some other well executed shots in the movie too - particularly the "day for night" effect used when Ennis tells Jack "we got a one shot thing going on here", Prieto had to expose for the brightest objects in the scene, then close the shutter down a few stops. I am sure they darkened the frame even more in post-production on Flame or Inferno. Also, one really simple effect happened when Lee cuts from the intimate darkness of the two around the campfire to an intrusive glaring full noon sun in the irrigation ditch scene. That was the most effective to me for sentimental reasons. The first movie I can remember seeing at the theater was "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", and the thing I remember the most about it is how bright the light was after I walked out of the dark theater into the afternoon sun. The jolt of the hot sun in that transition brings this memory back every time I see it.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:31:55 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 22:37:37
flashframe 777:

Thanks for the further thoughts. I'd caught that the 'we got a one shot thing' must have been shot day for night as the publicity still is obviously shot in bright sun. But, it's great to read your further insights into the film.

A tangential note. The wonderful work in the lake scene has distracted me from the fact - in six viewings - that the lake background locale is a very popular day-hike area in Kananaskis Country, about a 1 hour drive west of Calgary. I hadn't realized it until someone behind me at my last screening said non-chalantly -"It's Barrier Lake". I could scarcely believe it, as I'd walked over that very spot not 4 months ago, back in September. The parking lot in which Jack and Ennis are packing up is normally filled with 20-30 vehicles on a typical weekend. The film's Brokeback is also one of the favorite hikes - Moose Mountain - in a different part of the Kananaskis. It has a fire-lookout as the hike's summit, which you can just barely see as a structure on top of the mountain at dusk, just prior to the 'first' tent scene.
Just an indication of how magical and elusive Lee and Prieto have been able to make the very familiar country in which I live seem fresh and newly beautiful.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:41:40 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 22:42:29
Casey,

How cool is that - to know that they shot that scene in a familiar space? It's great to know the names of those places. I have been to Calgary once, and I really thought it was magical.

I was surprised that you noticed the publicity still used for the same scene was exposed normally. I was going to write that.

I too, like spottedreptile, like it best when all the work is done in camera as opposed to post-production. It not only looks more "real", but it saves tons of time and money, not to mention it shows everyone else that you know your craft.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - pbwriter (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:32:58 )   

casey - considering what you said below, wanted to mention it reminds me of the movie's poster - Ennis looking away, Jack facing more towards the front, and at right angles to each other....

Reliving the film in my mind's eye, I remember that throughout the film whenever they are in conversation Ennis is always looking away, positioned in the frame at 'right angles' to Jack facing toward or away from the camera, while Jack is invariably in direct profile, facing and addressing Ennis directly. To me this reinforces the constant tension between the two of them in how they see their relationship, Ennis always deflecting and never able to admit the depth of emotion he feels for Jack.

Thanks for your posts.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:35:41 )   

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 23:45:00
Casey - thanks so much for the 'real Brokeback' location.

I googled it and came up with this image:

http://shakey.smugmug.com/photos/15160806-L.jpg
yep that's it. Wonderful.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - marquis4 (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:50:56 )   

naun:

I enjoyed very much your reference to the Morrow Plots and the endless fields of central Illinois. I don't know if Lee used these places as inspiration for the film, but it's exciting to speculate on such ideas.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - loubyloo3 (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:56:26 )   

Love this post!


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:56:47 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 4 2006 00:13:23
spottedreptile:

Check this out -- several shots of Moose Mountain, the film's Brokeback location.

http://www.braggcreek.ca/kananaskis/trails/msmnt_photos.htm

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 12 2006 00:01:24 )   

Check out the discussion in the numerous replies - you're missing a pile of gems if you don't - where several posters agree with you. I do as well - Jack and Ennis do manage to 'torque' things back to where they were.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - amonism (Thu Jan 12 2006 00:15:13 )   

hey case thanks a lot for the analysis -- i caught that two and could not figure out why it was there -- it was so out of "character" from the rest of the film for the camera to move in such a way -- thanks for the truly enlightening and thought provoking posts -- and thanks for helping to keep these conversations on a higher intellectual level -- keep it up -- please!!! :-D


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Thu Jan 12 2006 03:31:54 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 03:33:30
I still don't understand how this shot was done. How do you go from wide (big depth of field with Ennis in focus) to long (narrow depth of field putting Ennis out of focus) with the same lens, and KEEP JACK IN FOCUS in the foreground, without breaking the shot?

I might be dumb, but I just don't see how. It's probably a special lens or some really simple answer. I guess if it's been done before, then it's not a huge deal, but I'm mystified (and awed as well.)


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Thu Jan 12 2006 08:02:09 )   

Also, one really simple effect happened when Lee cuts from the intimate darkness of the two around the campfire to an intrusive glaring full noon sun in the irrigation ditch scene.

The glaring light really feels ominous and oppressive in this scene. I was struck by something Heath Ledger said in an interview, that he wanted "the light always to be too bright and the world to be too loud" for Ennis, and it made me wonder if discussions about his character between the actor and director influenced the way this scene was shot. We see the young Ennis' eyes widen in horror; the grown Ennis squints, pulls his hat down low, and generally averts his gaze. Jack, by contrast, never loses his sense of childlike, wide-eyed wonderment.

The first movie I can remember seeing at the theater was "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"

One of my all time favourite movies! Reflecting on it now in the light of Brokeback, the most important relationship (I don't necessarily mean sexual) in the movie seems to be the one between the two men, representing the new west and the old west, just as Ang Lee says of Jack and Ennis in Brokeback.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Jan 12 2006 08:46:59 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 08:51:21
Hey Spotted,

It's really simple...it's called Pulling Focus. The Director of Photography aims and shoots, and someone else, usually an assistant, positioned beside him (or her) has a hand on the lens turning the F-Stop ring down or up. So what you see is the lens shutter getting wider (background goe out of focus) followed by the shutter getting smaller (background in sharp focus, foreground is blurred). The lens size matters - so using a large lense size would dramatize the effect. But it's done manually, which is really cool.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:28:54 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 13 2006 22:44:17
flashframe777:

I'm not entirely positive, but two of my favorite shots near the begining of the film look to be composite images which they would have had to do in post-production. They are shots of what I assume to be an impressive, fantastically scenic Brokeback in the background of both Joe Aguirre's trailer and the morning scene following the employment interview where they are loading the sheep [Jack is checking his shotgun]. I have a suspicion from my experience of the local area [though I hate to admit it] that the mountain they used in the background would be nowhere in proximity to the foreground where the rest of the shots takes place - ie. it's in a completely different terrain.
The image [no matter how generated] of the idealized Brokeback Mountain is stunningly beautiful, an apt image full of portent for the impending love relationship and for what Brokeback will represent for Ennis and Jack.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - starboardlight (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:58:14 )   

i need to go back and see this scene again. I don't remember exactly how it looks.

but you may not even need to pull the focus. camera depth of field have specific distance. If you set up the shot so that on one side, Heath is within the distance range, he'll be in focus. When you swing the camera to the other side, have the camera be further away, Heath will be out of focus. It's not that difficult, but does take some planning. Still a very effective technique.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Thu Jan 12 2006 15:31:22 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 15:32:49
but flashframe, the foreground doesn't go out of focus. That's the thing. That's why it's such a hard shot to work out.

And also, the camera tracks not pans. So it remains the same distance away from Ennis.
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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 12 2006 17:43:45 )   

I can't imagine that, with the close bond that Ang Lee has with producer Schamus, Lee would not have been consulted with regard to the iconic imagery of the poster. The 'similarity to the Titanic poster' angle has been presented for the purposes of publicity, but, as all of use who are seriously considering this film and its details from every possible perspective, the poster pose you mention is completely in keeping with Ang Lee's filmic preferences.
Thanks for bringing up that detail - I hadn't considered that Lee's vision would extend to the publicity, but why not?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Jan 12 2006 17:46:53 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 17:57:01
Hi Spotted,

The camera is on a dolly track. The depth of field includes foreground and background. It's a continuous movement shot - no cuts. I've been on set, and have seen it being done before. When the foreground stays sharp on Jack, the background goes out of focus. When the background is sharp on Ennis, the foreground defocuses. I watched again for it today.

____________
Casey wrote: I have a suspicion from my experience of the local area [though I hate to admit it] that the mountain they used in the background would be nowhere in proximity to the foreground where the rest of the shots takes place - ie. it's in a completely different terrain.
__________________________

You're sharp. There are definitely some shots that have been composited and/or rotoscoped for reasons I believe are sane and tantamount to telling the story. Remember, this is not "Underworld" - it's about nature. But my philosophy about that is shoot what you need, and what you can't achieve in camera - make sure you get it done properly in post.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:30:27 )   

flashframe777:

The composited/rotoscoped shots aside, the physical aspect I love most about the film is that there is minimum [if any] use of studio sets, as far as I can tell. Everyone of the interior scenes apprears to be shot 'on location' using existing local buildings in Alberta. All of the Riverton scenes above the laundromat, the sad, decrepit ranch house interiors which Ennis and Alma inhabit, Jack's married home, the bars, the dance/community house set in Childress have a wonderful authenticity to them.

Even the penultimate location in Jack's family farmhouse was shot in an existing house. Granted it was dressed, and worked into a design concept by being painted, dressed, etc.. But, the eerie, otherworldliness of the scene [I've made a case in another thread for it evoking a supernatural scene from Greek tragedy.] is achieved 'on location' with the spectacular photography and lighting, not to mention the staging, blocking, and astonishing internal acting work of Roberta Maxwell, Peter MacRobbie and Heath Ledger.
I love the 'naturalness' which this achieves in the film.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - bradford-5 (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:37:14 )   

If you read the American Cinematographer article on the film's photography, you'll find that many of the sceenes you might think are locations, such as the scenes inside the tent, were actually shot on a sound stage.

Steven Bradford
Tempe Arizona


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:43:18 )   


I am going to pick up that issue of American Cinematographer...thanks Steven.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:54:03 )   

Duh !! OOps.. forgot about the tent scenes !!
Thanks...


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Fri Jan 13 2006 17:18:46 )   

Hi Spotted,

The camera is on a dolly track. The depth of field includes foreground and background. It's a continuous movement shot - no cuts. I've been on set, and have seen it being done before. When the foreground stays sharp on Jack, the background goes out of focus. When the background is sharp on Ennis, the foreground defocuses. I watched again for it today.

Ok. If you're sure about it, then I'll take your word for it then! I didn't notice it myself, but guess I got that wrong. Hmm, I was hoping it would be a bit more complex than that! oh well.

thanks for clueing me in.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Fri Jan 13 2006 18:42:44 )   

Spot - that's the real beauty of it, smooth, seemingly simple and fluid. But there was a lot of thought behind it.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Jan 13 2006 23:20:12 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 13 2006 23:22:00
flashframe777:

Enjoy your posts and your contributions to the discussion immensely.

I suggest that there is an antipode to the 'revelation' in the blazing sun within the night scene colloquy which you describe as a favorite filmic visual motif.

It follows the 'rejection' by Ennis of Jack's overture to a life together after he has travelled the thousands of miles from Texas in the hopes of finally achieving a relationship with Ennis following the divorce. The film moves from the bright day of rejection into Jack's tearful sorrow in the truck as he resolves a new plan of attack and travels towards Mexico. The abrupt cut to the darkness of night scene in which Jack 'selects' the Mexican hustler contrasts significantly with the 'rejection' scene. And as Jack purposefully moves with the hustler [played as a cameo by the Director of Photography, Rodrigo Prieto] down the alleyway the darkness literally swallows them up. Another amazing shot. To me it expresses that this clandestine, furtive sexuality which Jack is forced to practice is so in contrast to the open, disclosed relationship he dreams of having with Ennis.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Fri Jan 13 2006 23:58:43 )   

To me it expresses that this clandestine, furtive sexuality which Jack is forced to practice is so in contrast to the open, disclosed relationship he dreams of having with Ennis.
*******************************************************************************************************
Agree wholeheartedly Casey. Proulx stresses the fact that Ennis & Jack's relationship progresses from the darkness of the tent into the light of day.

The shot of Jack disappearing into the dark alley, affects me strangely every time I see it.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - austendw (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:16:11 )   

To me it expresses that this clandestine, furtive sexuality which Jack is forced to practice is so in contrast to the open, disclosed relationship he dreams of having with Ennis.

...and also the loss of personality, and identity. Gone are the bright close-ups of the Ennis/Jack scenes, which reveal nuances of gesture and feeling. Here it's pretty much a couple of long shots, in the last of which Jack walks away from us, hiding his face and identity, becoming pretty much anonymous (like the sex) before disappearing into the gloom.

Also, unless I am mistaken (it's a week since I've seen it), Jack says not one word. With Ennis, he's the talkative one. Here he is mute.



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Jan 14 2006 09:21:07 )   

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 09:27:42
austendw:

Great observations regarding the Mexico scene.

Your comments remind me that so much if not all of the physical expression of Jake and Enniss's sexuality or emotional intimacy together occurs only under the cover of darkness or gloom - in the tent scenes, the 'reunion' motel, all of the fishing trip colloquies beneath the stars. Their initial admissions to each other - 'one shot thing', 'not queer', 'me neither' - of the attraction that has grabbed hold of them happens in the gloom of an obvious day for night shot on the side of the mountain as well.

All of the emotional and possible societal threats of discovery to their relationship occur in the bright light of day - Ennis's retching scrutinized by the passing cowboy in the alley way as he tries to pound his feelings out of himself following their first parting; the reckless 'reunion' kiss in front of Alma; the white truck driving by, indicative to Ennis of anonymous societal scrutiny, which obviously threatens his composure as he rejects Jack's attention in front of his daughters following the divorce.

The one and only shot of their willful, consensual, intentional, physical intimacy in the bright light of day is the the one where we observe their bare-chested 'horseplay' through Joe Aguirre's binoculars. I find it ironic and telling that the audience always laughs at their discovery by Aguirre, at the point in their lives where Jack and Ennis felt the most free and demonstrative in their love . Ang Lee makes even we who are a sympathetic audience uneasy at this witnessing their naive innocence. It gives the lie to any thought of Jack and Ennis being able to feel safe away from society's scrutiny. Jack never mentions to Ennis that they were 'discovered' by Aguirre and it might be Jack who takes the lead in making their later meetings more discrete. The movement of Jack and the hustler into the exaggerated darkness of the Mexican alleyway is the consequent summation of a visual motif of darkness being indicative of a necessarily furtive and concealed sexuality in the film.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Sat Jan 14 2006 10:12:33 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 16 2006 01:31:18
The one and only shot of their willful, consensual, intentional, physical intimacy in the bright light of day is the the one where we observe their bare-chested 'horseplay' through Joe Aguirre's binoculars. I find it ironic and telling that the audience always laughs at their discovery by Aguirre, at the point in their lives where Jack and Ennis felt the most free and demonstrative in their love .
___________________________________________________________________________________

Compare this to the one shot which distills Jack & Ennis' relationship to incorruptable beauty - the flashback of Ennis hugging Jack in the morning before he rides off. It is so private, so meaningful, so pure, that it was hidden from the audience until it has been transmuted by Jack from something ordinary and 3rd dimensional to something spiritually divine and mentally solid. When that moment is revealed it is so profound and so understated that the audience might miss it, or get confused or think it's a mistake. It "sinks beneath your wisdom like a stone."

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Jan 14 2006 10:24:55 )   

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 10:30:30
All of the Riverton scenes above the laundromat, the sad, decrepit ranch house interiors which Ennis and Alma inhabit, Jack's married home, the bars, the dance/community house set in Childress have a wonderful authenticity to them.

One thing I noticed in my last viewing was in the scene where Ennis is arguing with Alma as she goes down the stairs to head to work, you can see hot air coming out of one of those laudromat vents, like a dryer in the laundromat is actually being used.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Sat Jan 14 2006 10:36:13 )   

hot air coming out of one of those laudromat vents
__________________________________________________

matching the steam that Alma lets off, and the steam flaring from Ennis' nostrils - a little wind disturbing the mix, eh?

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Jan 14 2006 11:27:45 )   

flashframe777 and NewHorizons37:

There's that wind again. On several other threads it's been stated that Jack is associated symbolically with the wind - Joe Aguirre's snarling of "Look what the wind blew in" to Jack as just one verbal association in the screenplay. So might the visual motif of the 'wind disturbing the mix' be yet another symbol of Ennis's relationship with the invisible Jack palpably affecting his relationship with Alma?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Jan 14 2006 17:01:22 )   

flashframe777:

And befitting the 'spiritually divine' nature of the scene, I believe it opens with an elaborate and striking tracking shot, one of the rare ones in a film devoid of self-conscious camera moves [as you and I have discussed], 'skimming the ground' approaching Jack in front of the fire and then moving upward to catch Ennis coming up behind him. A counterpoint to the elaborate camera work in the scene just previous. It's as if a memory is being inhaled [to mix metaphors] and savored. Or perhaps a holy spirit coming upon the moment and blessing it for eternity.
Talk about incorruptible beauty - great phrase of yours!!

AND, as you're probably aware, the administrators on the IMDB board completely mistook aspects of the flashback and incorrectly labelled it a continuity goof before rectifying it.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - rubin2018 (Sat Jan 14 2006 17:36:20 )   

Casey,

I would like to refer to the final scene with
Alma Jr.where she answers her father’s
question and declares her love for Kurt. He
goes into an emotional fog looking off to his
right. I imagine that the whole idea of
ceremonial vows immediately hit him. After
she leaves he picks up her sweater. He holds
it gently as and then brings it to his face
where he is searching for a loving scent.
Minutes later he says “Jack, I swear.” Albeit
tragically too late, it was as if he was
declaring his eternal vow of marriage to Jack.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - rubin2018 (Sat Jan 14 2006 18:00:00 )   


You can tell about how much passion Jack felt for Randall
via Jack's dead expression at the former's suggestion of
staying in the cabin. It was almost EXACTLY the way he
looked as he walked off into the darkness with the
prostitute in Mexico.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Sat Jan 14 2006 18:06:12 )   

I believe it opens with an elaborate and striking tracking shot, one of the rare ones in a film devoid of self-conscious camera moves [as you and I have discussed], 'skimming the ground' approaching Jack in front of the fire and then moving upward to catch Ennis coming up behind him. A counterpoint to the elaborate camera work in the scene just previous.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Casey, thank you.

This prompted me to think of something. It occurs to me that humanity may not be able to hold and relay the fullness of creativity that superconsciouness has prepared for unravelling. However, since emotions are beyond words and often transcends cognitive awareness, it's a viable route to convey and reveal its glory to a lowly human vessel (say, a movie director like Ang Lee).

Simply put, what if when choosing these shots, Ang Lee was moved to follow spiritual emotional cues, trusting that the outcome would be achieved, knowing on a superconscious level that what he was moved to do would be whole, spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically.

I say this because in my own filmwork, I often I let my heart guide me down a creative path. I look back at the work and wonder how it was ever done, and immediately the logic behind it begins to reveal itself to me.


"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - rubin2018 (Sat Jan 14 2006 18:09:42 )   

It was a third degree psychic (psychological) burn imprint of
their final minutes together that sent Jack into an
increasingly fatalistic phase of his life. Now drinking more
heavily and sexually active with Randall, it is easy to see
that a series of events was put in motion via inappropriate
behavior in public....thus leading to his death.-


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - rubin2018 (Sat Jan 14 2006 18:16:56 )   


I am now almost certain that, as planned, Jack must have
driven to his parent's ranch where, on this occasion,
would no longer have spoken Ennis's name.

Out of anger and despair he would more likely have brought
up the subject of separating from Lureen and returning with
a "different guy" to help at the ranch.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Sat Jan 14 2006 18:23:57 )   

it is easy to see
that a series of events was put in motion via inappropriate
behavior in public....thus leading to his death.-
____________________________________________________________________

Or maybe it was just Jack's time to go. Maybe on some grand scale no one is at fault for any degree of pain suffered in the human drama.

Either that, or everyone, yourself included, is a perpetrator.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Jan 14 2006 23:06:12 )   

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 23:10:08
flashframe:

I'm a musician by calling, trade, and profession, so I know well how one has to trust to instincts in calling forth the significance from the ineffable and the numinous without recourse to representation of the physical for interpretation and meaning.

I think that's what I love about Brokeback as envisioned by Ang Lee [and his creative associates], and the great directors [Tarkovsky, Bergman among my favorites] who truly treat, respect and employs access to the sub-conscious and trust that it will reach their audiences without recourse to conventional filmic devices, cliches or vocabulary. So little of Brokeback seems 'clever' or 'arty', but, my Lord, how profoundly it's reaching audience members by tapping to a depth which is rarely seen in such an ostensibly 'simple film. Look at what it's pulled out of some of the discussion on only these boards. I hope and pray that others conversing are about it as much.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Ellemeno (Sun Jan 15 2006 03:34:11 )   

And you quote Leonard Cohen. There are some really special people drawn to this board.

In motel "Me?" Ennis pokes his thumb in his own eye O to be that thumb, o to be that eye



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - NewHorizons37 (Sun Jan 15 2006 05:49:38 )   

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 05:50:27
Interesting. I was just thinking that it was a nice touch that the laudromat appeared to be real in that scene, not just a set. But now that you mention it: this scene contrasts with the grocery store scene in that Alma is no longer willing to put up with Ennis' chauvinist BS. In the grocery store scene, she took the kids even though it was very inconvenient for her, because he had to go work. Now, several years and several "fishing trips" with Jack later, Alma is no longer being the submissive wife -- she's going to work and Ennis can just stew about her not being there to serve dinner. So yes, the relationship with Jack is a factor in that scene.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 15 2006 14:01:15 )   

Ellemeno:

I have to ask -- who is quoting Leonard Cohen and where?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - starboardlight (Sun Jan 15 2006 17:24:35 )   

Interesting. I was just thinking that it was a nice touch that the laudromat appeared to be real in that scene, not just a set. But now that you mention it: this scene contrasts with the grocery store scene in that Alma is no longer willing to put up with Ennis' chauvinist BS. In the grocery store scene, she took the kids even though it was very inconvenient for her, because he had to go work. Now, several years and several "fishing trips" with Jack later, Alma is no longer being the submissive wife -- she's going to work and Ennis can just stew about her not being there to serve dinner. So yes, the relationship with Jack is a factor in that scene.


I'm not sure if Jack is a factor. I wonder if Alma wouldn't have gotten tired of Ennis's chauvinism in any case. It seemed to me, whether Jack was in the picture or not, their marriage was headed for the rocks no matter what. Ennis just wasn't able to open up to Alma emotionally and wasn't able to provide for her financially. He just wasn't the kind of man she needed, whether Jack was there or not.

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:54:50 )   

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 21:55:53
rubin2018:

I'm right there with you totally in agreement.

Saw the film again tonight and was struck by how Ennis takes Alma, Jr's sweater and sniffs it lovingly the way he first sniffed the two shirts in Jack's boyhood home.
My heart breaks when I think that this is ALL he has left of Jack's presence in his life - no pictures, probably no letters or postcards, no souvenirs of any kind save those two shirts. I cracked inside tonight watching him in Jack's closet, trying desparately to detect some faint, salty, sweaty - any - odor of Jack and not being able to. It's a touch of interpretive genius from Ang Lee and Heath Ledger's acting instincts to take that tiny motif from Annie Proulx's story of Ennis being aware of Jack thorough the sense of smell and set up that pay-off image in Jack's closet by having Ennis sniff other items througout the film and follow through with the sniffing of Alma, Jr's sweater.

There's no doubt at all in my mind that he is swearing love to Jack in that final line, as much as he ever will be able to verbalize it. It's a wonderful redemptive moment in the film. I'm not sure that Annie Proulx's story is as hopeful as it opens with Ennis much older and still 'trapped' in the taciturn, emotionally stunted, even more stubbornly repressed state. Although Ennis in both the story and film will continue to honor the memory of Jack, I don't know if he will ever allow himself to open up to another man in the same way again.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Ellemeno (Mon Jan 16 2006 02:35:16 )   

CaseyCornelius, it's flashframe777, the phrase in quotes is from "Suzanne" by Leonard Cohen
Quote


by - flashframe777 1 day ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 10:12:33 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 16 2006 01:31:18
The one and only shot of their willful, consensual, intentional, physical intimacy in the bright light of day is the the one where we observe their bare-chested 'horseplay' through Joe Aguirre's binoculars. I find it ironic and telling that the audience always laughs at their discovery by Aguirre, at the point in their lives where Jack and Ennis felt the most free and demonstrative in their love .
___________________________________________________________________________________

Compare this to the one shot which distills Jack & Ennis' relationship to incorruptable beauty - the flashback of Ennis hugging Jack in the morning before he rides off. It is so private, so meaningful, so pure, that it was hidden from the audience until it has been transmuted by Jack from something ordinary and 3rd dimensional to something spiritually divine and mentally solid. When that moment is revealed it is so profound and so understated that the audience might miss it, or get confused or think it's a mistake. It "sinks beneath your wisdom like a stone."

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

The moment after "Yes, Daddy, he loves me."

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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - austendw (Mon Jan 16 2006 08:53:31 )   

It's a touch of interpretive genius from Ang Lee and Heath Ledger's acting instincts to take that tiny motif from Annie Proulx's story of Ennis being aware of Jack thorough the sense of smell and set up that pay-off image in Jack's closet by having Ennis sniff other items througout the film and follow through with the sniffing of Alma, Jr's sweater.

Yes indeed. When Ennis smells Alma's sweater it obviously recalls the earlier moment. Here, and with real affection, he is smelling the clothing of a living daughter. And note the careful, caring way he folds it up before he puts it away into the closet - the closet which, although it has become the shrine to Jack, does also have room this precious living thing, not just relics of a dead man. That's clearly the redemptive quality that the film-makers brought to these closing scenes. Of course, this doesn't diminish the sense of deep sadness, and it seems to me that it's the very smell of that living daughter (not just the previous announcement of her marriage) that poignantly and viscerally reminds Ennis of his lost love. "Jack, I swear...."

I'm not sure that Annie Proulx's story is as hopeful as it opens with Ennis much older and still 'trapped' in the taciturn, emotionally stunted, even more stubbornly repressed state. Although Ennis in both the story and film will continue to honor the memory of Jack, I don't know if he will ever allow himself to open up to another man in the same way again.

I'm sure you're right here, Casey. The story is bleaker in that Ennis is still utterly alone. He can get consolation and joy from his memories and dreams of Jack ("he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.") but that consolation is still entirely subjective and interior. He remains an "island, entire of itself." In the film, Ennis's relationship with Alma Jr, gives a glimmer of hope that in a very small way, he is, perhaps for the very first time, "involved in mankind."

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 18 2006 22:55:58 )   

austendw:

Perhaps a parallel with the only other time that Jack is speechless in the film, following the obvious proposition of a 'fishing trip' [the same euphemism which Ennis and Jack use] from Randall, in front of the Childress dance hall, after which the two 'couples' head into a similar surrounding 'blackness'.
Another instance of Jack embarking on what will turn out to be a clandestine sexual relationship reflected in the visual filmic choices.
Amazing the psychological touches and tension which Ang Lee suggests [along with Osanna and McMurtry] yet again more with what is left unsaid than spoken.



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - no_no178 (Wed Jan 18 2006 23:03:20 )   

ok,,about the camera shots,,,there are only a few "long shots"? right? is there a lot of correlation between them,,,like going right the first,left the second,,,or more on one then the other,,,,then one of,if not the last,,,where ennis finds out jacks dead,,,theres another one that goes part way around him,,is it just shots,,,or is there more to it,,,, ALSO,,in posts longgg ago,,,ppl had posted that there was "flowing" and i saw one of those examples...when alma puts the paper down,,,and theres "honey" on it...and the next scene jacks asks lureen,"honey,u seen my blue parka?"...that was someones elses exp.. but i finally saw it,lol........ but what about those long shots?

I THINK I THINK TOO MUCH


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 18 2006 23:21:41 )   

no no178:

Your bringing up the arresting camera movement which tracks around Ennis as he reads the DECEASED-stamped postcard he had sent to Jack is striking as it expresses his shock. He halts in his tracks and the world seeming to stop around him is suggested by this camera move.

I keep forgetting to bring up that I'd noticed that the split second before Ennis reads the postcard, just as he's exiting the Post Office, a brown truck, almost identical to the one we last saw Jack driving [a revealing association with the brown/tan/wheat color always associated with Ennis -see the extensive discussion regarding this in other threads], crosses left to right in the background behind Ennis. In no conceivable way can this be a coincidence or a lack of thought on Ang Lee's part. He'd never allow a random moment such as that, especially when he's gone to such lengths throughout the film to associate certain colors with each of Jack and Ennis.

It's as if Jack as a physical presence in a symbolic-filmic way is shown to be exiting the story.
HAS TO BE !!


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - rayanne007 (Thu Jan 19 2006 00:08:25 )   

One of my favorite sequences takes place in Jack's room toward the end of the film. Ennis is sitting at the window. Suddenly the camera cuts to a view from inside the closet, looking across the room toward Ennis. It's Jack looking at Ennis. Then Ennis looks directly at the camera. Wow.

Wow, I never picked up on that possibility until you mentioned it. I love that, it made tears come to my eyes. It's a beautiful idea :)


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Jan 19 2006 00:34:03 )   

Great...something to look for at the next viewing when Ennis comes out of the post office. This time I will focus on the camera moves throughout. Naturally, I will report back here with my thoughts. Thanks Casey.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


'Cabin'   
by - 3of19 (Thu Jan 19 2006 04:30:56 )   

I didn't notice it before my 6th viewing two days ago, but did you notice what Ennis is saying in the exact moment the camera shift occurs?
He mentions the cabin they spent some time on one year.
And what was it Randall proposed Jack and he should do sometime? Go and get aways sometime to his boss' cabin.

Re: 'Cabin'   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Jan 19 2006 07:47:06 )   

He mentions the cabin they spent some time on one year.
And what was it Randall proposed Jack and he should do sometime? Go and get aways sometime to his boss' cabin.
___________________________________

And what phenomenon do we see between twins, but an uncanny connection that tells them what's happening with the other without verbal communication. This is an example.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 19 2006 15:58:24 )   

flashframe:

I've picked up the January copy of American Cinematographer recommended by yourself, spottedreptile, and others.
I am completely floored by Prieto's admission that most of the time in the film only one camera was used, often operated by a single person, frequently himself.
The whole film is so delicately and beautifully photographed, but I had never imagined that it had been done so simply. It makes the few shots where a relatively complicated camera movement is used stand out, their effect on the audience so visceral. It's akin to a few brush strokes on a white paper sheet, with a sudden explosion of red.
Yet another instance of Ang Lee's appealing to 'stillness', silence, and leaving more unsaid than said throughout the film. How refreshing in this period of kinetic, hyperactive films to see Ang Lee daring the audience's involvement. What a chance he took, but how magnificently this filmic miracle is affecting the world. I'll look forward to seeing how well its received in Europe - initial reports show as much excitement as on this side of the pond.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - enzino-1 (Thu Jan 19 2006 16:05:15 )   

Yes, it's a miracle film.
Thanks for your analysis…


Re: 'Cabin'   
by - 3of19 (Thu Jan 19 2006 16:16:36 )   

Well, what I meant was that Jack was reminded of the option of Randall while trying to figure out where to go from there. And as we see, Ennis is pushed out of focus, i.e. Jack is seriously considering to go and try to build a life with Randall, rather than Ennis.

Maybe I'm interpreting your answer wrong, it sounded kinda condecending to me. But then again, I'm not a native English speaker.


Re: 'Cabin'   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Jan 19 2006 16:51:35 )   

30f19, I enjoyed your input, and was adding to it. I was not at all being condescending. And your English is perfect!

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: 'Cabin'   
by - 3of19 (Thu Jan 19 2006 17:06:42 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 19 2006 17:07:13
Ah ok. I thought it would be weird if you were being condecending, cuz it doesn't seem like you from what I've learned about you from my time here. Just thought the comment was a bit strange.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spottedreptile (Sun Jan 22 2006 01:03:38 )   

FINALLY got to see the film a second time today, and I paid very close attention to this shot, amazing what you notice the second time around. Actually the camera is very slightly off-focus in the foreground when Ennis is left side of Jack, so Jack is very slightly out of focus. When Ennis appears on Jack's right side, Jack goes into sharp focus as Ennis blurs.

So it's not quite as technically difficult as I first thought, but still just as clever in the choice and how the subtext is used.

I noticed something else as well - when Jack and Ennis are walking to the bar after they have just been hired, Jack is leading and Ennis a few steps behind going Indian file, but even though they haven't really talked to each other yet, THEIR STEPS ARE EXACTLY SYNCHRONISED.

This happens when people are en rapport - when they walk together they are often in step with each other.

Nice little touch. One of the many hundreds of little touches that make this film so great.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 22 2006 02:55:00 )   

Spotted,

They could have easily done that shot without losing focus on the foreground or the background as the camera dollys from left to right. It would simply be keeping the depth of field at a higher number. So the choice was intentional to blur the subject that was not making a comment.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - henrypie (Sun Jan 22 2006 18:26:05 )   

Thanks for the original post on this thread. Brilliant observation that I know I would have missed or at best never articulated so well.

on last post -- on the pope/virgin Mary... Mary's iconographic color is indeed blue but I wouldn't tie that to the pope. Pope wears red...

I love this film.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 22 2006 18:50:53 )   

Hey Non99, Jack says "you used to come away so easy. Now, it's like seeing the pope."

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - nonon99_99 (Tue Jan 24 2006 18:38:25 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 26 2006 16:22:22
During the scene in which Jack drives fourteen hours to the house of Ennis, after receiving the message of his divorce, we can see when Ennis says his reasons to reject Jack, facing Ennis, Jack's tongue is licking his lips, from right to left then back to right, showing his anxiety. This detail reflects the shifting of camera at the final Lake scene, which is from left to right then to left behind Jack.

This is just a one instance of the numerous reflections on which Brokeback Mountain constructs. Here is one more:

In the final Lake scene, when Jack opens the door of his car, readies to depart, Ennis leans on Jack's car talking to him. Ennis' body language tells us his reluctance to let Jack go. We may recall the first departing scene after their first Brokeback encounter. In there Ennis fixs Jack's car, then leans on the body of the car, searching the lost shirt, the one with blood stolen by Jack. Ennis says 'can't believe lost the shirt', that means he knows the shirt is lost. Ennis pretends searching it for one more time to keep for a moment. ( I think in real life, once you have fixed someone's car, usually you will let the car go instead leaning on it.)

The lake itself is also a metaphor.

We recall the first river dialogue scene, the water flows from the direction of Jack towards the direction of Ennis. In the second river dialogue, the flowing direction of the water remains the same. It changes in the third river dialogue, in which the a blue bucket flows from the direction of Ennis to that of Jack, almost gets lost, thought Jack isn't at the side of river this moment.

Now in the final dialouge which happens again beside the water. We see a large and still lake, no more flow.

CaseyCornelius:

You have mentioned after Ennis receives a return post card from the post office, he stands still on the street, a brown car leaves from him. Do you notice there is a woman in white goes to the opposite direction of the car?
Certainly it reflects in the Jack's parent scene Jack's mother's console to Ennis.

We can also find the profound significance of Numbers. The differences between odd and even of the people, chairs, lights etc in the background reflects the character's situation and mind. Even always associates with happiness, odd the loneliness. These are many such examples in pub and bar scenes. What surprising is, the lights and people in the background often moves, yet the number of the figures inside the picture will remind the same.

In the ball scene, we see people always dance and sit in couples, even on the stage there are two musicans, only Jack is the single. He finally joins the man on the white bench and they become an even number, a couple. Three cars are facing them. In the scene jack gets beaten, there are three men beating him. Hence the number of three of the cars isn't without meaning as well. In the last scene, inside Enni's trailer, there are only odd numbers of chair and light.

This metaphorical use of water, number, direction as well as colour which many people have analysed, reminds me the art of traditional Chinese painting. I believe it is the use of such abundant visual metaphors, symbols, Brokeback Mountain digs into a large area of viewer's subconscious, affects people deeply.

I sense in Brokeback Mountain many other techniques similar to those used in traditional Chinese arts. They happens on every aspects, visual, aural, lingual, as well as tempo. Will say something of them later.

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - sisterbenin (Thu Jan 26 2006 09:12:32 )   

Absolutely superb, astonishing thread!


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Jan 26 2006 09:39:33 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 26 2006 09:54:11
so glad that you caught that other scene--I too was struck by it's calm, almost wistful atmosphere--Jack savors that moment--he appears to be dreaming as we hear Ennis's voice but the camera gives them the privacy intimacy should compell--this scene receives complete reversal in audience response from the scene where Aguirre sees them in horseplay (and I have only heard an audience laugh once at this--a couple of times people have sucked in their breath, anticipating disaster.

On another board, I read a comment about the later scene when Ennis is holding the shirts in Jack's closet which to me echos this flashback so I am going to copy that interp into this post. Appreciate any feedback from people whose posts are always eye opening....


Posts on "Jack's two natures" are very thought provoking and I saw right away that you had captured that nurturing theme that flows in the movie. Maybe this next interpretation has been mentioned previously on other threads--if so, I am not meaning to steal anyone else's idea but Monimm's comments caught my imagination.

It took me back to Jack's flashback at their last reunion, when Ennis gives his only overtly loving gesture on the mountain that summer--if we discount the tent scenes for the moment. When Ennis comes up behind Jack while he is sleeping, embraces him, whispers in his ear, and then goes away--we see that Jack is still dreamy but aware and focused on Ennis's gift of love, because it is as strong or stronger a display of love to me than most of what happens in the tents since it is not connected to the passion of the body but of the spirit and/or soul.
Ennis's embrace of the shirts--holding them from behind like he held Jack, whispering just a little to them, replacated that flashback scene in my mind--and increased my sense of his loss--that moment is gone and can never be regained--Ennis rode off in that scene secure in their relationship, just as he drove off at the last reunion healed by Jack's love, and not realizing it was the last time. Perhaps he, too, was remembering how he embraced Jack on Brokeback at that moment.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 26 2006 14:00:28 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 26 2006 14:30:06
nonon99 99:

Thank you for your observations regarding the running versus the still water and its use throughout the film. I've thought about it a lot over the last few days and find your seeing it so compelling and and an obviously intentional detail on Ang Lee's part.

There is not a visual detail in this film - the colors, the camera angles, the choices of location, the framing, and blocking of actors - which has not been thought out to the Nth degree by Ang Lee, Cinematographer Rodrigo Prieto and Production Designer Judy Becker among others.

I'm also interested in your references to Chinese numerology and cultural symbols. A poster on another topic I initiated - the Deliberate Classical References thread - wrote about Chinese poetry, since the moonlit scenes on Brokeback reminded her of the use of the moon in Chinese literature as a symbol of friends being joined together.
And a poster in the Brokeback forum on Dave Cullen's blog brought up the number 8 as significant in Chinese cultural as a number suggestive of repose - intriguing in that Ennis is affixing the numbers 1 and 7 to his mailbox in the final epilogue to the film - their individual numbers important in Chinese numerology [can't remember the exact details], but also the fact that their sum is the more significant Chinese numerological 8 .

Would be interested in any other thought you have from a Chinese cultural perspective, as it's obviously a factor in Ang Lee's interpretation and visualization of Proulx's and Ossana/McMurtry's words.

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - starboardlight (Thu Jan 26 2006 14:21:58 )   

the use of the full moon isn't coincidental. Through the film, we see the full moon only 3 times. As has been pointed out, in Classical Chinese literature and poetry, the full moon signifies lovers' reunion. Even if they are parted by distance, looking at the same moon, they find unity. In BBM, the idea of the lovers' union/reunion is accompanied by the image of the moon. First time we see the moon, it is obscured by clouds. It sit in the sky behind Jack, lonely up in the mountain with the sheep, looking down to see the dot of fire that is Ennis's camp. The love has developed but yet to be revealed. The Second full moon happens during the first tent scene. Jack calls Ennis into the tent. Cut to the moon to show time passing. The full moon emerges out of the cloud, full, bright and harsh. Back to Jack and Ennis and their attraction is finally revealed in a rough and harsh sexual encounter. The third time the full moon is used just after the reunion kiss. The two boys run off for a "fishing trip". Ennis lies on his back looking up at the moon. "I'm sending up a prayer of thanx".


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - nonon99_99 (Thu Jan 26 2006 17:28:53 )   

UPDATED Thu Jan 26 2006 17:40:36
Yes! In Chinese culture, the number 8 is a symbol of developing, flourishing, etc.. I am so glad to find a way to understand the meaning of the numbers on the mailbox outside Ennis' trailer. At first there is a 1, it should be a metaphor of Ennis's loneliness, then there is a 7, represents the larger world outside Ennis' life. The joining together of these two numbers, has such significance.

And the open door, the daughter, the coming wedding, Ennis' first enunciation of the word 'love', the two shirts, the landscape outside the window...
I really feel the last scene in the trailer is sending a strong message of blessing to people. No matter what tragedy happens, the first and purest love, occupying forever in our minds, will refresh everything and give us the strength and belief towards life. This mysterious gift of nature right locates inside our hearts, inside everyone's own Brokeback Mountain.


Chinese numerology and a final blessing in the Epilogue   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 26 2006 17:41:03 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 27 2006 21:59:56
nonon99 99:

Thank you, thank you for your insights into the numbers. It's completely in line with the statement which Ang Lee has made on numerous occasions -- that he wanted to end the film on a note of redemption [quoting Lurcher-2 from their post above]. Your suggesting that the numbers 1 [lonliness] + 7 [society] equalling 8 [developing, flourishing] is an exact expression of that intention. So beautiful !!
Annie Proulx's story - especially with the preface showing a much older, grey-haired Ennis still reminiscing the story and his relationship with Jack, but no further along in developing a relationship outside of his obeisance to Jack's memory - is much more resigned at the end.

The end of the film does suggest a blessing juxtaposing what Ennis knew [the closed closet door with the 'cult objects' of his love for Jack] with what he "tried to believe" [the open field with the blue sky (Jack's symbolic color), the golden color of the wheat (Ennis's color) and the verdant green of the corn stalks (the re-generational hope of Alma, Jr's love for another man).

A miracle of a film with obvious symbolic and thematic content from both Western and Chinese cultures which gives the lie to those who think the film-makers intended it to be solely a realistic story.


Re: Chinese numerology and a final blessing in the Epilogue   
by - Ellemeno (Fri Jan 27 2006 03:20:21 )   

I hope someone is archiving this thread. The hilarious Geisha thread is GONE. I would hate for this one to disappear.

"You got a better idea.......hm?"


Re: Chinese numerology and a final blessing in the Epilogue   
by - headrosie (Fri Jan 27 2006 05:09:54 )   

This thread is fantastic, thank you all so much.
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40