Author Topic: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight  (Read 21690 times)

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2007, 09:09:51 am »
 :-\  :-\


I'm not caught up on this story. I've only read about 20 or so chapter. But after reading all the comments here (very good and insightful ones - thanks for that!), I'm debatting whether I should continue...
'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2007, 11:27:57 am »
:-\  :-\


I'm not caught up on this story. I've only read about 20 or so chapter. But after reading all the comments here (very good and insightful ones - thanks for that!), I'm debatting whether I should continue...

You should!

Criticizing a story does not mean it's not a good story, at least not in this case. I still like the story very much and recommend it. Try to see it as a positive sign, that we are so taken in by the story overall, that we care to debate details back and forth. We wouldn't do this if we didn't like the story.
But I have to admit that I'm frustrated by Jack's actions and talk the last few chapters and I hope things will get a twist for the better soonish.

If you are at chapter 20 now, and the story is already up to chap 51, there's a good chance that the things we're discussing right now are not a topic anymore at the point when you will reach chap 51  ;D.
And you would cut yourself off almost 30 very good chapters.

Offline frantic65

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2007, 01:29:06 pm »
bellbbmfan please keep on reading. I love that this story gives us so much to debate about. In between where you are & the current chapters is a whole lot of really terrific stuff. There were a few times earlier in the story where Ennis was the one that had us shaking our heads wondering what was up. I think the title says it all-it's just sometimes its the characters who can't stand it & sometimes it's the readers! ;) The author always comes through, even if it's in surprising ways.

The guys are taking baby steps to happiness, but they still have a long way to go & they'll just have to tackle one thing at a time. Jack's paranoia is not logical, but that's the nature of paranoia. I always thought Ennis' fear of the tire iron in the OS was the same. Now we have Jack giving way too much power to what the outcome of Bobby finding out would be. He needs to realize that Bobby would more than likely not want to lose the new family he has either (Brenda & Sam & company) & go back to Lureen & LD. Brenda might be our key here, but I don't think she knows how seriously freaked out Jack is about Bobby finding out yet.

There remains throughout the whole story the truth that J&E love each other & want to be together & I have never gotten to the point where I ever thought otherwise.

Anyway, this is one story that I highly recommend & I think everyone who has been commenting on it here feels the same way.
You're the love of my life
And the breath in my prayers
Take my hand, lead me there

I can't forget the taste of your mouth
From your lips the heavens pour out
I can't forget when we are one
With you alone I am free

~~Santana~~Love of My Life

Offline cwby30

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2007, 01:32:36 pm »
Mornin'.

Well, keep on reading!!!  Don't let our discussion dissuade you.   You may have a completely different feeling by the time you get to the end of the current chapter.  And, everyone has an opinion, which is one of the great things about this forum, ennisjack and BrokebackSlash... we can discuss without making personal attacks which have nothing to do with the topic. 

When you've caught up, return with your insights.  We'll be interested to read them.

Thanks again. 

Offline mariez

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2007, 01:36:03 pm »
Amanda -   Something I forgot in my last post - I believe the farm already had the name when Jack bought it - kind of an ironic, bittersweet sign, I guess!



No, I don't think Jack fears Bobby would want to go back to Lureen and LD. But what he fears is that Bobby, in a first (?) angry, hateful, exaggerated reaction would run for the phone - first chance he'd get  ;) - and tell Lureen/LD everything straightaway. And LD/Lureen wouldn't stand for their son/grandson growing up in the household of a queer (let alone two, if Ennis moved in). So Jack fears LD/Lureen would take some kind of action against him (from fighting for custody to send out hired killers).

Yeah, I remember Jack saying something like that now, Chrissi.  But it still doesn't make sense to me.  Why call Lureen and L.D. if he doesn't want to go back there?  What's the point?  Just to get Jack in trouble or make him "change his ways?"  I don't get it.  And I think you make a good point that Bobby is still a child - the impressions he's been given by L.D. are not yet set in stone - he's still at an age when he can be influenced for the better.  And as much as I realize that Jack is falling into the trap that many divorced parents do and that it's understandable -  he's got all kinds of guilt going, he's still letting Bobby control him.  And you just can't let a ten year old control you.  Someone has to be in charge and that someone has to be the parent.  If Bobby has such serious issues that Jack can't handle - if he's full of that much hate  - well, I don't know what to say.  He needs some kind of professional help.  Besides, doesn't Jack have the fact that L.D. abused Bobby as something he can hold over him?  That's how he forced Lureen and L.D. to give him up in the first place.  And you're right - sooner or later L.D. and Lureen are going to find out - then what?  

Fran - you're right, paranoia isn't logical!  But as much as Jack told Ennis that he's not making the fear of losing Bobby more important than Ennis's fear of losing his girls - well, when it comes right down to it - he is.  There is no difference.  If Jack's fears are valid and understandable - then so were Ennis's all those years.  Ennis didn't know how Alma would react if he had moved in with Jack after the divorce- at that point she very well could have made it so that he never saw the girls.  And it's this lack of understanding on Jack's part that is bothering me.  Ennis will forever have his paranoia held over his head - he's so guilty about what he did to Jack now that he wouldn't dare call Jack on anything he's doing that doesn't make sense.  And that's the part that bothers me.  There's no equal footing here.  But, maybe we'll get to the point where Jack admits this, I don't know...... he doesn't seem to be seeing that right now, but, of course, things change all the time!

Fabienne -  Please continue reading.  Everyone is right - it's a great story!  And I would love to hear your insights!


Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline frantic65

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2007, 04:08:41 pm »
Amanda -   Something I forgot in my last post - I believe the farm already had the name when Jack bought it - kind of an ironic, bittersweet sign, I guess!



Yeah, I remember Jack saying something like that now, Chrissi.  But it still doesn't make sense to me.  Why call Lureen and L.D. if he doesn't want to go back there?  What's the point?  Just to get Jack in trouble or make him "change his ways?"  I don't get it.  And I think you make a good point that Bobby is still a child - the impressions he's been given by L.D. are not yet set in stone - he's still at an age when he can be influenced for the better.  And as much as I realize that Jack is falling into the trap that many divorced parents do and that it's understandable -  he's got all kinds of guilt going, he's still letting Bobby control him.  And you just can't let a ten year old control you.  Someone has to be in charge and that someone has to be the parent.  If Bobby has such serious issues that Jack can't handle - if he's full of that much hate  - well, I don't know what to say.  He needs some kind of professional help.  Besides, doesn't Jack have the fact that L.D. abused Bobby as something he can hold over him?  That's how he forced Lureen and L.D. to give him up in the first place.  And you're right - sooner or later L.D. and Lureen are going to find out - then what?  

Fran - you're right, paranoia isn't logical!  But as much as Jack told Ennis that he's not making the fear of losing Bobby more important than Ennis's fear of losing his girls - well, when it comes right down to it - he is.  There is no difference.  If Jack's fears are valid and understandable - then so were Ennis's all those years.  Ennis didn't know how Alma would react if he had moved in with Jack after the divorce- at that point she very well could have made it so that he never saw the girls.  And it's this lack of understanding on Jack's part that is bothering me.  Ennis will forever have his paranoia held over his head - he's so guilty about what he did to Jack now that he wouldn't dare call Jack on anything he's doing that doesn't make sense.  And that's the part that bothers me.  There's no equal footing here.  But, maybe we'll get to the point where Jack admits this, I don't know...... he doesn't seem to be seeing that right now, but, of course, things change all the time!

Fabienne -  Please continue reading.  Everyone is right - it's a great story!  And I would love to hear your insights!


Marie

Here's the perfect example of why these discussions are so terrific. Marie, I didn't even consider what was causing Ennis to kind of accept everything Jack is dishing out to him.  Ennis with a case of the guilts is worse than Ennis with his tire iron phobia!! Now tell me this because you've thrown me for a loop here-do you think Jack is aware of this & sort of counting on this guilty conscience to get the best of both worlds until he feels Bobby is old enough to hear the truth??? That would be harsh-maybe its just kind of a subconscious thing. Anybody else out there have thoughts on this point?? Agree/disagree?

Oh yeah-EJ's was already the name when Jack bought the farm-the previous owners were Ed & Janice or something like that & Jack almost choked when he heard the name.
You're the love of my life
And the breath in my prayers
Take my hand, lead me there

I can't forget the taste of your mouth
From your lips the heavens pour out
I can't forget when we are one
With you alone I am free

~~Santana~~Love of My Life

Offline mariez

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2007, 04:41:22 pm »
Here's the perfect example of why these discussions are so terrific. Marie, I didn't even consider what was causing Ennis to kind of accept everything Jack is dishing out to him.  Ennis with a case of the guilts is worse than Ennis with his tire iron phobia!! Now tell me this because you've thrown me for a loop here-do you think Jack is aware of this & sort of counting on this guilty conscience to get the best of both worlds until he feels Bobby is old enough to hear the truth??? That would be harsh-maybe its just kind of a subconscious thing. Anybody else out there have thoughts on this point?? Agree/disagree?

Hi Fran,

Oh, no!  I don't think Jack is consciously trying to lord the past over Ennis's head.  Jack could never be that cruel intentionally and he loves Ennis with all his heart, that's obvious !

But Ennis and guilt go hand in hand - and I think Jack should realize that by now!  Jack isn't purposely trying to keep Ennis feeling guilty, but as the cliche goes - it is what it is.   Jack cut Ennis out of his life because Ennis couldn't let go of his fear and paranoia.  That's a fact.  And Ennis is going to regret that always.  He's made that clear.  And when Ennis had that relapse of sorts when he was scared about the girls finding out and their reaction - well, Jack was pretty clear then, too.  My way or the highway.  He considered that almost unforgivable and we went through the whole thing again - Ennis is stubborn and fearful, yada yada, we even had Alma get in on the act, telling Ennis he didn't deserve Jack! So.... I guess what I'm saying is, if Ennis was so awful for being fearful and paranoid - and no one cut him any slack, why is it different when Jack is the one being paranoid?  I just don't buy into the idea that it's different somehow.  It isn't.   But I don't think Jack realizes this. 

So, I don't think Jack is doing this purposely - but I do think he has some subconscious resentment lingering, which I guess is natural. And I think Ennis senses this somehow and that makes him fearful of speaking up (Ennis may not be educated in the traditional way - but he's very smart!)  I think they both have to get past those kinds of things if they're going to have a chance.  They're not equals right now (and I'm not talking about money).  And until they can be equals, there are going to be subconscious resentments on both sides - a very bad thing in any relationship.  Just mho, anyway!

Thanks,
Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2007, 05:08:13 pm »
Hi Fran,

Oh, no!  I don't think Jack is consciously trying to lord the past over Ennis's head.  Jack could never be that cruel intentionally and he loves Ennis with all his heart, that's obvious !

But Ennis and guilt go hand in hand - and I think Jack should realize that by now!  Jack isn't purposely trying to keep Ennis feeling guilty, but as the cliche goes - it is what it is.   Jack cut Ennis out of his life because Ennis couldn't let go of his fear and paranoia.  That's a fact.  And Ennis is going to regret that always.  He's made that clear.  And when Ennis had that relapse of sorts when he was scared about the girls finding out and their reaction - well, Jack was pretty clear then, too.  My way or the highway.  He considered that almost unforgivable and we went through the whole thing again - Ennis is stubborn and fearful, yada yada, we even had Alma get in on the act, telling Ennis he didn't deserve Jack! So.... I guess what I'm saying is, if Ennis was so awful for being fearful and paranoid - and no one cut him any slack, why is it different when Jack is the one being paranoid?  I just don't buy into the idea that it's different somehow.  It isn't.   But I don't think Jack realizes this. 

So, I don't think Jack is doing this purposely - but I do think he has some subconscious resentment lingering, which I guess is natural. And I think Ennis senses this somehow and that makes him fearful of speaking up (Ennis may not be educated in the traditional way - but he's very smart!)  I think they both have to get past those kinds of things if they're going to have a chance.  They're not equals right now (and I'm not talking about money).  And until they can be equals, there are going to be subconscious resentments on both sides - a very bad thing in any relationship.  Just mho, anyway!

Thanks,
Marie

Wow, Marie. This is some insightful post. And so well said. I agree with everything you've said.

Offline frantic65

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2007, 07:29:52 pm »
Thanks Marie-that all makes perfect sense now & I think you are dead right. ok-now I need a new chapter!!
You're the love of my life
And the breath in my prayers
Take my hand, lead me there

I can't forget the taste of your mouth
From your lips the heavens pour out
I can't forget when we are one
With you alone I am free

~~Santana~~Love of My Life

Offline mariez

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Re: Can't Stand It - by nosunlight
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2007, 05:47:40 pm »
Update!  Chapter 52:

http://community.livejournal.com/brokebackslash/1638719.html?#cutid1



SPOILERS





A very sweet and funny chapter, and the beginnings of some nice communication between the boys.  But the real world awaits.  I hope Alma agrees to let the girls go with Ennis to Kansas for Thanksgiving, and Bobby and Jack coming up to Ennis's for Christmas should be very interesting .......

And Arnie the alligator cracked me up!  LOL!

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain