Author Topic: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are  (Read 69718 times)

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2006, 11:36:20 am »
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2006, 02:20:58 pm »

I remain confused about TexRob's message tho'...  I wonder what  he meant when he said (paraphrasing) "not all existentialists are atheists" ?

Yeah, confusing! According to Sartre, an existentialist can only be an atheist. Was he thinking of Buddhists? Because I've taken an interest in Buddhism, and I said to a friend lately that they were real existentialists, so it seems to me!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2006, 03:47:39 pm »
Well, I sure had it wrong.  I think I missed the target AND the tree...

In that case, I *am* an existentialist (as well as a bonehead).  Determinism doesn't apply to me - if it did I'd most likely be locked up somewhere by now.  I see myself as wholly responsible for my own actions.  I not only don't believe in God; I don't believe in fate.  I believe we all make our own destinies.  In a less eloquent way, life may throw some shit our way, but we can either let it hit us head on - even try to (as I think professional victims do) or we can dodge it/go around it/get beyond it - it's up to us.

Thanks, Isabelle and Impish.  And I'll check out that web site.  :)
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Offline TexRob

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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2006, 05:49:12 pm »
I'm fascinated.  Could you give a brief summary of the beliefs of religious existentialists?  Are these people who believe in a god but don't believe in an afterlife? 

Religious existentialists look at religion more as a leap of faith than something based on observed evidence of a god.   For us secularists, an "existential crisis" can call upon us to make decisions about our lives which we cannot escape and for which we are solely accountable.  Similarly, a religious existentialist doesn't "experience" God so much as he "encounters" God, and that encounter comes in the form of a question which the believer must answer for himself -- thus, the religious version of an existential crisis.

Both versions of existentialism uphold man as an agent acting with total freedom combined with total responsibility for his free choices.  Kirkegaard laid out this stance for believers, and Sartre laid it out for those of us who don't believe.  Both versions start with reality itself as  the basis of all further development (as opposed to a "consiousness" of some sort).   Hence, both kinds of existentialism subscribe to the statement: Existence precedes Essence.
   

Offline TexRob

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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2006, 06:16:12 pm »
Would you be willing to explain this a bit more (maybe in a new thread in the Open Forum rather than here)? A college friend once called me an existentialist, and I've never fully understood what he meant (even after reading a little Sartre... well, ok, so I didn't read French well enough to really understand Sartre, either). I'm wondering if whatever-that-connection-is might help me understand why BBM knocked me for a loop like this.

Hi Nakymaton --

Even in English, Sartre is extremely difficult to read because he is so technical.  Existentialism, in turn, is an expression which is hard to pin down in everyday usage.  The definition of existentialism I'm using is the point of view that man finds himself alone in an indifferent or even hostile universe.

Existentialism is not a full blown philosophy so much as it is a way of looking at the world around you.  It's basic root is that existence precedes essence, meaning we're the product of a natural world, not a spirit world lying beyond it.  From there, existentialism elaborates several "themes."  One of them is the role of alienation in our lives.  Another is our absolute freedom to choose, and our right to refuse labels: to put it in Sartre's words, an consciousness that "isn't what it is and is what it isn't."   Another theme is our existence in a world of other people, who put a limit on our own realities by their mere presence to us.

There are other existential "themes" as well, and in Brokeback Mountain, every single theme is expressed in one scene or the other.  Take the very first one, where Ennis and Jack are sneaking looks at one another.  To put this in Sartre's words, this scene represents the radical appearance of the Other (Jack) in a person's life, and Sartre's discussion of "The Look" is borne out as Ennis steals a glance at Jack, and Jack steals one back through the mirror.  The Look represents the disturbing draining off of our reality toward the Other, and this is exactly what was happening in that scene.  The "radical" appearance of the Other in our lives is a specific existential theme.

That's just the first scene of the movie.  Each scene that follows picks up on another existential theme, then another, to very end, where in Ennis's tears we see the existential definition itself:  Man is alone ... in and indifferent or even hostile universe.

How to get past this aloneness or alienation, and whether that's possible or even desireable, is a major question for existential thought.



Offline TexRob

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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2006, 06:55:55 pm »
Not to steal TexRob's thunder, but I've been called an existentialist, too.  The Wikipedia definition leaves me kind of cold.  The way I see it, being an existentialist is being someone trying to find meaning in a godless world.  The existential dilemma is trying to decide what is right and what is wrong in a world where no one will ultimately judge us for our actions - i.e., since there is no God, if I can get away with it, what's to stop me from lying, stealing, killing?  I don't think it's an accurate moniker for me now, because I have found meaning and I do know what's to stop me - my own conscience.  The existentialist believes he or she exists separately from all other individuals (and from God) and doesn't need anyone else for anything.  I'm too much of a social animal for that.  I'm a humanist, I think.  I think we're all connected through our very humanity - through the fact that we all need sleep and water and food, that we all laugh and weep, that we all die.  So I'm still a little miffed that this person thinks that of me.  Either she doesn't really understand the word or she doesn't really understand me.  Just being an atheist alone doesn't make one existential, like she thought.  One can find a great deal of meaning in life and in nature without the existence of a god or gods.

Hi ednbarby --

Yes, for existentialist thought -- and most atheist or human thought for that matter -- "meaning" in life is a project that we freely choose for ourselves.  The project doesn't have to make any sense or relate to anyone other than ourselves, but our absolute freedom  as conscious entities means freedom from having our meaning in life chosen by someone else, like a society or our parents' religion.

Existentialism proposes no particular right or wrong for our moral existence.  It only states that, whatever our moral choices, we alone bear total responsiblilty for them, for absolute freedom is inseparable from absolute responsibility for our choices. The closest existentialism comes to a moral wrong is "mauvaise foi," which is the refusal to recognize what you know to be the case. The best English translation of mauvaise foi  is "self deception."  Put another way, existentialists don't believe in an unconscious mind because they don't think any evidence shows that a conscious mind can surpress part of its awareness into another realm without on some level remaining aware of what it is that it's surpressing.  So to deceive yourself -- about another person's intentions, for example -- is almost to commit a crime against your very essence -- your consciousness. 

Your own consciousness is not enough to stop you from committing an absurd act.  You can steal or kill if you wish.  That's another existential theme, the theme of anxiety.  Anxiety arises in our awareness of our capability, due to our freedom, of doing just about anything, regardless of the consequences.  We aren't anxious driving because we could get run off the road; we get anxious because we know we can drive ourselves off the road of our own free will.

Sartre stated that existentialism is a form of humanism.  But humanism, as we understand it now, means making choices for the good of human beings, and existentialism doesn't require that.  To me, what humanism does is to supplement existentialism by proposing a morality that makes sense in a world without intrinsic meaning. So I see humanism a value system which is different from existentialism.  Since I think of myself as a "naturalistic humanist,"  I try to combine existential themes with a freely chosen, human-centered morality.

No, an atheist doesn't have to be an existentialist.  The Objectivists, who follow Ayn Rand, specifically reject existentialism.  About your comments about the social animal, a lot of atheist philosophers asked how individualistic or free we really can be in a social setting, especially since were are trained as social animals in childhood, long before we start questioning where we got those beliefs from and long after we can do much about them, perhaps.  I think personality has a lot to do with people's varying social orientation, so it's not an either/or question.  But again, does your personality come from within -- or is it conditioned by the society you live in?

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:05:06 pm by TexRob »

Offline TexRob

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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2006, 07:11:41 pm »
Back to existentialism: this friend used the description after reading a story that I had written for a creative writing class in high school. The main character, in the end, wasn't able to get out of the pattern her life fell into, even though the pattern was clearly messed up. (I recently told another friend about the story, and she laughed and said: "Ennis.") So I'm wondering if the connection has to do with being trapped by inaction, or something. That doesn't seem to have much to do with whether or not someone believes in a deity, though.

Hi Again Nakymaton --

There is an existential concept known as the situation limit.  The character in your story may have been bound by that, just as we humans are bound to Earth for the time being.  Still, within that limit, the individual is free and responsible for his choices.  Ennis's situation limit was his poverty and his place.  Within that limit, however, he was free.  The movie, in fact, shows us how Ennis refused labels; in fact, so did Jack, Alma and Lureen. Although trapped by their own situation limits, out of their own free will they refused the roles you might have anticipated for them (why didn't Lureen divorce Jack, for example -- the obvious thing for her to do?).  Still, "existentialism" gets thrown about rather loosely, and my guess is that your main character may have been in an absurdly Kafkaesque situation more so than a typical existential situation.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:07:34 pm by TexRob »

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2006, 07:51:35 pm »
Tex Rob,

I'm not sure I follow everything you say, but at the moment just want to clear up one point in particular.

When you say that some existentialists are religious, are you using the term "religious" to mean simply "have a spiritual side to their life"?   

Or does "religious" mean that there are existentialists that believe in a god of some kind?  This is what I understood you to say, and I want to confirm that what I understood is a misunderstanding.  :)

You said
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Religious existentialists look at religion more as a leap of faith than something based on observed evidence of a god. 

but I would suggest that that's how all believer's in gods see it, that's what 'faith' means to atheists and the religious alike:  believing despite the lack of evidence (the disagreement is  about whether that's a good thing or not).

In another post, you give a definition of existentialism that I agree  with:

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The definition of existentialism I'm using is the point of view that man finds himself alone in an indifferent or even hostile universe.

Surely, someone who believes that "man finds himself alone" doesn't also believe in gods, but if so, how can you say that not all existentialists are also atheists?

You see my confusion here, and I'd like to re-read your posts above once I get this cleared up in my mind.

Thanks!
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Offline TexRob

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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2006, 12:41:37 pm »
Hi Impish --

Even today, fundamentalists attempt to use facts of reality to demonstrate the existence of God, so not all not all religious people base their belief purely on "spiritual" phenomena or faith alone.  Religious existentialists can believe in a god, not just a spiritual side to nature.  This is shown by the fact that one of the great Catholic writers,  Jaspers, was an existentialist in his outlook.

One thing all existentialists have in common is the axiom that "existence precedes essence."  This can only mean that God or the spiritual (whichever way they look at it) arises on the platform of a pre-existing reality.  Most religious thinkers believe the opposite -- that essence precedes existence, and that a Mind of some sort gave rise to reality.  So as far as I interpret it, religious existentialists are a lot like the pantheists who equate God with the universe we inhabit.  Regardless of whether they are spiritual or god-believing, they accept that a pre-existing reality of some sort gave rise to this transcendental realm.

The answer to the question of why they have faith is that they choose it as an existential right. One of the major themes of existentialism is the utter uniqueness of every individual human being, who can refuse to wear a label and can change his life's project at any time as an act of free will.  If we atheists conclude there is nothing beyond the natural world, there can be nothing to stop them from choosing to extend that outlook to the supernatural.  The choice itself is sort of a leap of faith as far as I can tell, but it's the right to that leap that religious existentialists demand. Such an existentialist, then, has refused the label "atheist" as a manifestation of his unalienable personal freedom. 

Because there is no meaningful definition of God or "spiritual,"  there is no problem for them in believing in both the definition of existentialism I was using and the existence of God.  There is no evidence, that is to say, that God is in any way concerned with the welfare of human beings.  This is a concept that predates Kirkegaard, going back to the Rationalists of the Enlightenment -- a passive deity unconcerned with human suffering. 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:52:52 pm by TexRob »