Mary Renault Book Discussion

[TXdoug]

Thanks Kerry for the pictures you are posting. They really help me to understand the MR's references.

[Zander]

Love your Herms Kerry, I wonder if our modern habit of installing garden "statues" / birdtables etc stem from this?

[Kerry]

Love your Herms Kerry, I wonder if our modern habit of installing garden "statues" / birdtables etc stem from this?

Hi ya, Zander. It's possibly the case, but probably unlikely LOL. The pic of Herms posted earlier is a somewhat sanitised version of what they actually looked like. In Athens, they were usually a pretty standard variation on a somewhat elementary theme:
1. Four-sided plinth
2. Head of the God Hermes on top
3. Projections at the shoulders, on which to rest wreaths
4. Colossal great vertical rampant phallus emerged from the plinth

They were placed at the entrances to homes and cities as protective entities.

Since posting the last pic, I have had greater success in locating a more accurate representation of what an Athenian plinth actually looked like:

Though this is a somewhat flippant, homoerotic representation of a sculptor's "relationship" with his Herm, it is, in reality, more likely to be what a plinth really did look like.

I suspect you would probably get very strange looks from your neighbours if you installed an Athenian Herm at your garden gate LOL!

[injest]

I would be pleased to.

There is a great deal going on here. Jess has already described the turmoil in the city. Because Sokrates is an associate of Alkibiades, and Alkibiades is being blamed by many for the desecration of the Herms; ergo, Sokrates, through association, is also being linked to the violation. Sokrates has a reputation for not necessarily being a particularly “religious” man. Because he is so publicly out there, in the agora, he is attracting attention and abuse.

Let us not underestimate the enormity of this despicable outrage. It is an aggressive, forthright attack on the Gods - by mere mortals! Far more serious than common vandalism. There’s a great deal of tension in the City. People are very stressed. Tempers are at boiling point. How will the Gods get even?

A man has lost his temper with Sokrates and is shouting at him. Sokrates holds his own, shouting back, though also using reason, trying to convince the man that Alkibiades should be considered innocent until proven guilty, “The law of evidence for instance?” says Sokrates.

I smiled when the hot-head called Sokrates a cunning snake who could argue black white. I have no doubt that this is true, on both counts!

The man strikes Sokrates. How does Sokrates react? Does he reciprocate in kind or verbally? No. In reality, Socrates was known for his sense of humour and MR obviously knew this from her research, because she provided Sokrates with these words, “Thank you. Now we can all see the force of your argument.” It made me laugh. Sokrates the pacifist, turning the other cheek, looong before Jesus Christ or Mahatma Ghandi!

At this point, we are introduced to Lysis for the first time. He is in the company of Sokrates and comes to his defence. A noble young man. And we know he didn’t lose his temper because we are told that even as he was repelling the attacker’s advance, he retained a calm demeanour, “as if he were sacrificing.” I loved that!

When Kriton tries to convince Sokrates to sue the street thug, Sokrates responds, “Last year an ass bolted in the street and kicked you; but I don’t recall you suing him.” Priceless!

And he chastises Lysis also with, “Just when he was starting to doubt the force of his argument, you re-stated it for him with eloquence and conviction.” That put the young buck, Lysis, right back in his place!   

Though there are no overt fireworks between Alexias and Lysis at this meeting, there is a great deal of simmering underlying sexual tension between them.

This is what we are told about Lysis:

* Alexias had seen him with Sokrates in the past. I’m guessing that Alexias thought he stood-out from the crowd.

* A bronze statue had been made of him when he was 16.

* Alexias saw his name “every day” on the base of the statue, so he must have been admiring it.

* Alexias comments that someone should do a new statue of him now that he is a man. This means to me that Alexias thinks he is beautiful and should be immortalised in bronze.

* He won a crown for wrestling.

* He was “among the notable beauties of his year, which one could still believe without trouble.”

* He was tall and slim.

* He is gracious and courteous. Well-bred. I know this because after he has defended Sokrates, we are told that he looks at Sokrates, “as if with apology for his intrusion.“

* Alexias has seldom heard his voice (could be somewhat like Ennis in this regard?!), except at the horse races, when his voice can be heard over everyone else. Alexias has made a point of listening for his voice! There are sparks!

* Lysis is a man of fashion. Metrosexual? He has the new look - a shaved face!

* I love this description which I am compelled to quote verbatim, "His hair, which he wore short, lay half-curled against his head, and being mingled fair and brown, gleamed like a bronze helmet inlaid with gold.”  He is beautiful, indeed!

* The scene when Lysis turns around and catches Alexias staring at him is particularly charged with sexual dynamism, “He smiled at me however, as if to say, ‘Come nearer, then, if you like; no one will eat you‘.”  Delightful.

Now I do not see that as Socrates rebuking Lysis at all...I saw it as him giving Lysis a off the cuff compliment on his calm repulse of the hooligan..hmm...different perspectives!!


I think it was Zander who asked about gay people in MRs books...I think that this is one of the examples of how she presents them. In our time I think Alexias would be gay...judged by his own time he was well within the 'norm' for sexual behaviour for a young man in those circumstances...he obviously had some feelings for an attractive man. (Did he memorize EVERY name on EVERYstatue? I think not...and he mentions he knew Lysis by sight and by the sound of his voice....)

[Zander]

Hi ya, Zander. It's possibly the case, but probably unlikely LOL. The pic of Herms posted earlier is a somewhat sanitised version of what they actually looked like. In Athens, they were usually a pretty standard variation on a somewhat elementary theme:
1. Four-sided plinth
2. Head of the God Hermes on top
3. Projections at the shoulders, on which to rest wreaths
4. Colossal great vertical rampant phallus emerged from the plinth

They were placed at the entrances to homes and cities as protective entities.

Since posting the last pic, I have had greater success in locating a more accurate representation of what an Athenian plinth actually looked like:

Though this is a somewhat flippant, homoerotic representation of a sculptor's "relationship" with his Herm, it is, in reality, more likely to be what a plinth really did look like.

I suspect you would probably get very strange looks from your neighbours if you installed an Athenian Herm at your garden gate LOL!

I did see some remanants and paintings that represented them in Pompei and Hurculaneum.  We have a Hercules (nude of course) in the garden and everyone coming to the house has to pass it - that and two garden gnomes one mooning and one flashing  I think I may have a little greek in me (no lets not go there  )

I did like the picture you found though  Alexis (not to give the game away) describes the statue of his father so that particular herm must have been more detailed than a simple post - I don't think Alexias was commenting on te size / quality of a rampant phallus as he recognised the statue and I don't think it would have been from being able to identify his fathers penis (well not in that state unless MR knows something we don't) 

[injest]

SOMEBODY has been reading ahead! 

[Zander]

SOMEBODY has been reading ahead! 

Slap my wrists I read this ages ago 

[injest]

Slap my wrists I read this ages ago 

*eyes Zander carefully*

hmmm don't think so..you may like it too much....

 

[Zander]

*eyes Zander carefully*

hmmm don't think so..you may like it too much....

 

Not quite (but near  )

[injest]

well since apparently I am the only person left in the club...(since Kerry has wandered off for more um...'interesting' threads...

so I am just going to mention one last scene and then I am off to the next chapter!

Myron is giving a party for his supper club at his home...Alexias is serving the wine...we mentioned this earlier

When Kritias gropes Alexias there is one man who sees....Kritias takes notice and takes his vengence a few moments later..(no one should DARE to disapprove of him and his will; better to preemptively destroy a possible enemy)

Tellis has fallen on hard time and can no longer afford to host the party or pay his dues...as the debate continues about who may have damaged the Herms and brought bad luck on the city; he speaks up in defence of Alkibiades "No, Myron is right, it was planned to a hair and not be Aldkibiades"

Kritias answers him smoothly "No one, I am sure, will think worse of Tellis for supporting his host"

The men had been drinking, and were full of their affairs. But I, who was watching, saw Tellis' face stiffen, as at the first bite of a sword-thrust. When you have thought yourself among friends, who have given the best proof of their liking of your company, it strikes hard to be called a sycophant for the first time. I knew he would never sup with the club again. I went over to him, and filled his cup, knowing no other way to show how I felt; and he smiled at me, trying to greet me as he always did. Our eyes met above the wine-cup, like men's who have picked up the sound of a lost battle before the trumpet blows the retreat.