Mary Renault Book Discussion

[injest]

oops...one more thing from this chapter!!

Alexias now has a stepmother...

Myron married her when she was fifteen...making her only eight years older than Alexias. She was small and dark (Myron being fond it seemed of dark women) and the only child of a well respected Athenian who had given her a great deal of freedom. She was intelligent and interested in the world around her. Myron would rebuke her for her interest in politics but Alexias told her everything....they were very close and she gave him great comfort after the tyranny of the Rhodian!

[Kerry]

well since apparently I am the only person left in the club...(since Kerry has wandered off for more um...'interesting' threads...

so I am just going to mention one last scene and then I am off to the next chapter!

Myron is giving a party for his supper club at his home...Alexias is serving the wine...we mentioned this earlier

When Kritias gropes Alexias there is one man who sees....Kritias takes notice and takes his vengence a few moments later..(no one should DARE to disapprove of him and his will; better to preemptively destroy a possible enemy)

Tellis has fallen on hard time and can no longer afford to host the party or pay his dues...as the debate continues about who may have damaged the Herms and brought bad luck on the city; he speaks up in defence of Alkibiades "No, Myron is right, it was planned to a hair and not be Aldkibiades"

Kritias answers him smoothly "No one, I am sure, will think worse of Tellis for supporting his host"

The men had been drinking, and were full of their affairs. But I, who was watching, saw Tellis' face stiffen, as at the first bite of a sword-thrust. When you have thought yourself among friends, who have given the best proof of their liking of your company, it strikes hard to be called a sycophant for the first time. I knew he would never sup with the club again. I went over to him, and filled his cup, knowing no other way to show how I felt; and he smiled at me, trying to greet me as he always did. Our eyes met above the wine-cup, like men's who have picked up the sound of a lost battle before the trumpet blows the retreat.

Yes, Kritias is certainly a priceless bastard of the highest order! (I don't mean that as a compliment!) 

[Kerry]

oops...one more thing from this chapter!!

Alexias now has a stepmother...

Myron married her when she was fifteen...making her only eight years older than Alexias. She was small and dark (Myron being fond it seemed of dark women) and the only child of a well respected Athenian who had given her a great deal of freedom. She was intelligent and interested in the world around her. Myron would rebuke her for her interest in politics but Alexias told her everything....they were very close and she gave him great comfort after the tyranny of the Rhodian!

Yes, and she's a sweetheart too. She's painted as a really warm, lovely person.

[Kerry]

Jess, before we move on to Chapter 4,  this quote form Chapter 3 has been troubling me.  I would be interested in your take on it:

“I thought I would pray before going, but did not know which altar to turn to; for the gods seemed everywhere, all saying the same word to me, as if they had been not twelve but one. I felt I had seen a mystery, yet knew not what. I was happy. Wishing to praise all gods alike, I stood where I was and lifted my hands to the sky.”

I see this as Renault effectively selling her soul to the devil. A cop-out. On the nose. Not kosher. It’s almost as though she’s hedging her bets and pandering to her predominantly Christian readership here. Alluding to the forthcoming, glorious (Humph, vandalising more like!) Christian era.  I am aware of the Dionysian Mysteries, but the word “mystery” used in this context, immediately on the heels of “not twelve but one (god)”, has a decidedly Christian odour attached to it for me.

Am I over-reacting? No-one would be happier than me if you tell me I’m misjudging Renault here, because I love her work, and only want to enjoy it and gain from it. Please tell me I’m wrong. I want you to tell me I’ve got this all wrong, Jess.

[Zander]

Jess, before we move on to Chapter 4,  this quote form Chapter 3 has been troubling me.  I would be interested in your take on it:

“I thought I would pray before going, but did not know which altar to turn to; for the gods seemed everywhere, all saying the same word to me, as if they had been not twelve but one. I felt I had seen a mystery, yet knew not what. I was happy. Wishing to praise all gods alike, I stood where I was and lifted my hands to the sky.”

I see this as Renault effectively selling her soul to the devil. A cop-out. On the nose. Not kosher. It’s almost as though she’s hedging her bets and pandering to her predominantly Christian readership here. Alluding to the forthcoming, glorious (Humph, vandalising more like!) Christian era.  I am aware of the Dionysian Mysteries, but the word “mystery” used in this context, immediately on the heels of “not twelve but one (god)”, has a decidedly Christian odour attached to it for me.

Am I over-reacting? No-one would be happier than me if you tell me I’m misjudging Renault here, because I love her work, and only want to enjoy it and gain from it. Please tell me I’m wrong. I want you to tell me I’ve got this all wrong, Jess.

No Kerry I think you are quite right here, I think MR uses a cop-out to head off any potential backlashes to her work as per my earlier references to an exclusively "gay" character as discussed in earlier postings.  Please don't get me wrong I love MR's work too but she did write for a particular adience at a particular time and I think she had to protect herself.

[injest]

I thought when I read that in the context of the story...that she was trying to convey that feeling that you get when you are IN nature and feel full of something more than yourself...the feeling you get sometimes at night when you look at the stars. We don't have words for it so (for me) this is what Alexias would have thought of that feeling... he WOULD have seen it as having to do with the Gods but would have no experience to tell him which god or if in fact it came from the Gods. Remember he is still very young and innocent here..caught up in a moment of awe and wonder.

I think she was just trying to show his confusion...we view it as a foretelling of the Christian god but remember monotheism is not a new concept...the Egyptians have flirted with it themselves... 
 
(I don't see why she would have felt the need to 'cop out' in this book when she didn't in any of her other books...)
 
 
 
 

[Kerry]

I thought when I read that in the context of the story...that she was trying to convey that feeling that you get when you are IN nature and feel full of something more than yourself...the feeling you get sometimes at night when you look at the stars. We don't have words for it so (for me) this is what Alexias would have thought of that feeling... he WOULD have seen it as having to do with the Gods but would have no experience to tell him which god or if in fact it came from the Gods. Remember he is still very young and innocent here..caught up in a moment of awe and wonder.

I think she was just trying to show his confusion...we view it as a foretelling of the Christian god but remember monotheism is not a new concept...the Egyptians have flirted with it themselves... 
 
(I don't see why she would have felt the need to 'cop out' in this book when she didn't in any of her other books...)
 

Perhaps I was being a little harsh with the "cop out" comment. Like Zander (and you, too, Jess), I love Renault's work. That one little quote just hit a raw nerve with me. I really appreciated the eloquence of your argument, Jess. You have a fine way with words. Have you ever been in a debating club? However, on this occasion, I must lean towards Zander's argument. Doesn't make me love Renault's work any less. That's never going to happen! 

[Zander]

OK so where is everyone up to?

[Kerry]

OK so where is everyone up to?

I'd love to get back to TLOTW, Zander. It's still sitting here on my desk, exactly where I left it some weeks ago. I've not had the impetus to progress further. I would be happy to recommence our Athenian adventure. Are you and Jess interested?

[Zander]

I'd love to get back to TLOTW, Zander. It's still sitting here on my desk, exactly where I left it some weeks ago. I've not had the impetus to progress further. I would be happy to recommence our Athenian adventure. Are you and Jess interested?

I am but from the standpoint that it's abook I've read and I'm commenting from memory, I suppose we should ask where everyone is with this.  I'm always happy to participate