Author Topic: Mary Renault Book Discussion  (Read 81306 times)

injest

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2007, 10:12:18 pm »
no I haven't had a chance to get it...the biography..

I am interested at how this chapter depicts Alexias's father...as being a fair and just man but very distant and involved with his own affairs...he engaged a nurse and didn't seem to notice that his child was suffering...he held supper parties...I get the impression that his father is ambitious.

It is clear that Alexias views his father as a object of awe but not protection or solace...

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2007, 11:39:54 pm »
no I haven't had a chance to get it...the biography..

I am interested at how this chapter depicts Alexias's father...as being a fair and just man but very distant and involved with his own affairs...he engaged a nurse and didn't seem to notice that his child was suffering...he held supper parties...I get the impression that his father is ambitious.

It is clear that Alexias views his father as a object of awe but not protection or solace...

Ah, daddy dearest! Hubber-hubber! Be still my beating heart! I think I’m falling in love with this man! He is a very complex character - stunningly attractive, charming, gregarious, virile, ambitious and rich. A member of one of Athens’ founding families. A gentleman of rank – “Our family has been there, as they say, since the grasshoppers came.”  He owns a beautiful, colonnaded house near the Dipylon Gate, as well as rural holdings.  Alexias describes him as “beautiful,” likening him to a Pheidias Apollo – high praise, indeed! Alexias further comments that, “It pleased me . . . to see him.” I’ll join that queue! This man would have been a major catch for any woman – or man! Forgive my lechery tonight. This kinda guy does it to me every time! A brute with a soul! Sigh!

Like so many men of his, or any other generation, his commitments and responsibilities kept him away from the family home. And I’m not sure that I can blame him. There’s a manipulative, sadistic harpy of a “concubine” in residence, who he plans to ditch, and his son is behaving like a right little brat. He appears to be either unaware or disinterested about the torture being inflicted upon his son by the Rhodian (cite the incident re the kitten).

And yet he has high moral standards. I, too, love the lesson of the shield, where the father instructs Alexias to refrain from hubris, “which the Gods hate” (I’m sure he didn’t want the wrathful Nemesis descending upon his house!) and “behave yourself like a gentleman.” Alas, he then goes and negates all the good he’s taught by adding, “And if you forget this, I myself will beat you.”

I think this is an interesting use of words. Is the “myself” tautological here? Technically, yes. However, I think MR has deliberately used this device in order to imply that the father was aware his son was already being beaten by the mistress.  Without “myself” it is simply a direct threat. With “myself” it implies there’s someone else already beating him. Your thoughts on this?
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injest

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2007, 12:29:14 am »
I think children at that time were considered little savages that had to be reined in...and the idea of the nurse beating him is not a shocking one to his father. It gives me the impression that corporal punishment was an accepted part of childhood....remember in the first chapter Alexias said "when I had been beaten at school"

a far different time. they had a great many things to be proud of...but more and more I get the impression that childhood was a hard thing then...

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2007, 07:37:33 pm »
Historical point of reference:

Alexias says, “It is true that when I was born he (Pericles) was still alive, though already sick; which is no reason for foolish youths to ask me, as one did lately, whether I remember him.”

I understand from this that Alexias was a child when Pericles (“Perikles” in TLOTW) died in 429 BC.

* Pericles, 495-429 BC

* Alexander, 356-323 BC

MR is telling us here that Alexias lived in the time immediately following the Periclean Age and prior to the advent of Alexander.

Athens must have been a beautiful, exciting city to live in at that time. And what a wonderful word-picture MR paints of the place for us. In fact, I find it so beautiful, I’m compelled to quote it here:

“Our house stood in the Inner Kerameikos, not far from the Dipylon Gate. The courtyard had a little colonnade of painted columns, a fig-tree and a vine. At the back were the stables, where my father kept his two horses and a mule; it was easy to climb on the stable roof, and thence to the roof of the house.

The roof had a border of acanthus tiles, and was not very steep. If one straddled the ridge, one could see right over the City wall, past the gate-towers of the Dipylon to the Sacred Way, where it curves towards Eleusis between its garden and its tombs. In summer-time, I could pick out the funeral stele of my uncle Alexias and his friend, by the white oleander that grew there. Then I would turn south, to where the High City stands like a great stone altar against the sky, and search between  the winged roofs of the temple for the point of gold, where tall Athene of the Vanguard lifts her spear to the ships at sea.”


Breathtaking! Brings a lump to my throat! One can almost feel the heat of the sun on one’s brow and hear the birds singing in the trees overhead. The grasshoppers chirping. The scent of the summer heat in the air.

I love the intimate, personal reference to the type of plant growing at the funeral stele of uncle Alexias and Philon – a white oleander. Oleanders grow throughout my home town of Sydney, in private gardens and public parks; their bright bursts of pink and white and red everywhere. So this hit a personal note for me. And it prompted me to make a mental note to plant a white oleander, when I retire to that country property I keep promising myself I’ll retire to – Cherry Cake Cottage! 

Oops, I appear to have reverted to chapter 1! Apologies!   ::)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 07:44:23 pm by Kerry »
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injest

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2007, 07:55:58 pm »
she is putting forth a picture of a happy content city...in its prime and full of promise...and although she mentions the Spartans and the yearly forays they made across the border; she makes it sound like a minor inconvenience, rather than true war...they raided the farms (including Alexias's fathers) but it seems to have no affect on their standard of living...and they obeyed a certain etiquette...drawing a line at going too far "everything was burned that year, all but the house walls and the sacred orchard, which they piously spared."

These raids seemed almost a rote act; just a part of life "Being too young to understand serious things, I used to look forward, when they were gone, to seeing what they had been up to"

Interesting in today's world to see the way MR presents the conflict between the Athenians and Spartans...they kept to a reg schedule...the Athenians knew when they were coming...it was almost a cordial affair...

Just background noise....


Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2007, 09:16:05 pm »
Indeed, a magnificent city in its prime. Would be lovely to be able to go back in time and visit. But not during the plague or when the Spartans were invading! Come to think of it, maybe I’ll pass on the time-travel thing, after all!!!

Which leads me to your observation that the war between Athens and Sparta was “almost a cordial affair.” Wish I could agree with you on this point. I’d much prefer to imagine all those gorgeous young men “getting it on,” instead of killing each other. Alas, kill each other they did. And most brutally. Up close, eye to eye. Your beautiful adversary’s face contorted in agony, as you plunge your sword through his heart. His warm, life-blood literally covering you. Nothing as clinical as a bullet, shot from a distance, in those days!

And I venture that the only reason the walls of the farm were left standing was because of just that – they were stone walls, which the Spartans couldn’t burn. As for the olive trees, the Spartans wouldn’t dare burn them. They’d been planted by Athene (there was probably a shrine to her within the sacred grove, advising of this fact) and she could be a mean son-of-a-bitch when angered! It wasn’t for nothing that she held that spear and wore that helmet!

Certainly, the invasions were largely predictable at a certain time each year. And I am guessing that their main focus in burning the farms, was to destroy the crops. Alexias says, “. . . all of us coughing with the smoke of the burning fields.”  There was a reason why the Spartans were burning the fields, of course. It meant that if there was no food for the city, they may be able to starve-out the inhabitants and conquer the city proper. This was their ultimate aim. They wanted Athens, and all the fabulous wealth therein. In chapter 1 it is suspected that Spartans poisoning the water supply may have caused the plague. For this to be suspected, it’s probably happened in the past.

We all know that the Spartans were an army of warrior-lovers (or should that be “lover-warriors”?) and I got a certain quizzical voyeuristic buzz from reading Alexias’ account of what he found at the family farm, after the Spartans had gone home. He says he used to look forward to finding what they left behind each year.  I almost felt a sexual rush when Alexias recounted reading what the Spartans had written on the walls. Kinda like the feeling one gets on reading a particularly hot piece of graffiti in a public place. Admit it – we’ve all had that feeling! (gulp – I hope it’s not just me!). It was very personal – “. . . various tributes to their beauty and virtue.” Even reading Alexias’ second-hand account I still felt as though I was intruding upon something very personal. And the thought of finding the comb of one of those stunning Spartan warriors was a real turn-on for me. Like Alexias, I too would have considered such an item a “treasure.” I’m sure if daddy dearest hadn’t thrown it away, Alexias would have kept it under his pillow! Me too!
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injest

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2007, 12:41:24 am »
oh I agree that the war was very real and very dirty...I was talking about how Alexias as a child saw it. It was unlikely he saw any of the nastiness that war truly was..but instead saw it from almost a romantic view....his father all dressed in his fine armor on his war horse riding off to face the enemy..and returning always 'victorious'...

to Alexias as a child it was all a great game, I doubt his father ever disabused him of his hero worship...

that is also one of my favorite scenes....when his father found the graffiti and he started 'rubbing angrily at the charcoal and saying "Get this ignorant scrawl whited over. The boy will never learn to spell, or to make his letters properly, with this in front of him"

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2007, 03:37:00 am »
I must stop rabbiting-on about history and concentrate on what's in the book. I admire your focus and insight. I'm enjoying having  a female perspective. I have only ever read MR solitarily through the eyes of a man; albeit a sensitive, romantically inclined, gay man; but a man, nonetheless. I'd not appreciated this until now. In the past, I suspect I was concentrating on the grunt, the biffo and the sex!  ::)

I was aware of the romance, but I guess I was preoccupied with the harshness of the times. The blood and guts! Even in the highly charged romantic scene with Alexander in the great bed with Bagoas in "The Persian Boy," I'm most drawn to the way MR describes the smell of "sex and cedarwood" in the room! Grunt!  :o

I love the way you are looking through the wide eyes of the infant Alexias, watching his "beautiful" (sigh!) father march off to war, resplendent in his polished and beplumed armour. I've still got a crush on this cocky, arrogant, peacock of a man. However, as I'm not reading ahead and only taking one chapter at a time, I suspect I may come to regret any misplaced admiration I have for him. Am I right? Go on, you can tell me  ;)

Nooooo dooooon't! I'm enjoying it too much, to have the plot given away ahead of time! (comment aside to self - "I bet daddy dearest ends up being a real bastard, just like John Twist!")

Let's discuss the Rhodian?

Your turn!!!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 03:51:52 am by Kerry »
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2007, 03:46:27 am »
Hmmm.... I guess I will go back and read this thread from the very beginning. I saw a post from Jess and Kerry and I started checking out this thread on the 7th page. It's as if I'm listening to half of a telephone conversation.

Serves me right for evesdropping, huh??  ???

I have some reading ahead of me tomorrow, I guess.  :)
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2007, 03:57:54 am »
David!!! What are you doing up at this time of night?! It's only 7pm here in Sydney, but I figure it must be very late in Indianapolis!   :o

Grab yourself a copy of "The Last of the Wine" and join our Mary Renault Book Club.   :laugh:

Do that tomorrow! Go to bed first!  ;)
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