Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

what's the point of the job switch?

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serious crayons:

--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 10, 2006, 01:43:58 pm ---To attribute his collapse solely to his fear of losing Jack, which certainly is one factor, or to any one cause or reason, or even to try to assign one most important cause or reason, does a disservice to the film, to the writing, and to Ennis.

--- End quote ---

Hunh??  People behave the way they do for any number of reasons, but one is often more important than others. Theorizing about those reasons and their relative importance -- in this situation, and all other situations in the movie where motivations are ambiguous -- seems to me to be the whole point of spending 10 hours a day on these boards. Of course there are no single "right" answers, and the possibilities may be complex and intertwined, but I hardly think it's a disservice to anyone to analyze them and try to form individual interpretations. I think those involved in creating the story and movie left them open-ended because they WANT us to do that (though they probably didn't predict we'd spend quite THIS much time on it).

Besides, I wasn't asking you to go through your entire interpretation of this scene one more time. I was just surprised that you agreed with me for a change.
 :)

Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 10, 2006, 02:15:59 pm ---Besides, I wasn't asking you to go through your entire interpretation of this scene one more time. I was just surprised that you agreed with me for a change.
 :)


--- End quote ---

No, but you did ask me to write more, and then I realized that I had nothing more to say than what I had already said at least twice already, and I was even getting tired of myself.

I see I was sharper than I intended to be, and I apologize for that, yet I do feel that trying to settle on one single reason or even a most important reason for Ennis's response is a disservice to a complex character in a complex situation, and I'm not apologizing for that position.

But what is the point, anyway, of trying identify the most important or a more important reason for something if one is prepared to accept or admit that there is more than one reason? Trying to assign relative importance is, to me, a pointless exercise. Why do you feel it is important?

serious crayons:
I don't know. Why DO I feel it's important to spend countless hours picking apart the behavior of characters in a movie? There are probably any number of intertwined reasons -- I like to write, it's an escape from "reality," I get bored and lonely at home working and need the distraction, you guys have interesting things to say -- but I guess the MOST IMPORTANT reason is that I love the movie. Without that, none of the others would matter.

As for this case, I just think people tend to behave more for one reason than another, and that in highly emotional situations, one emotion tends to predominate. Whatever is going through Ennis' fictional mind at this moment, I don't imagine him considering numerous factors of equal weight. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when I collapse in despair, one trauma is usually foremost in my mind, even if more than one, at some level, contribute to my angst.

As for why I encouraged you to elaborate, it was in response to this:


--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 10, 2006, 09:10:46 am ---(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)

--- End quote ---

I was curious about what more you might say if you had time. If you actually DON'T have more to say, that's OK.

In any case, you're right, Ennis is a complex character in a complex situation. How bout we agree on that and leave it at that?
 :)

Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 10, 2006, 03:08:40 pm ---I don't know. Why DO I feel it's important to spend countless hours picking apart the behavior of characters in a movie? There are probably any number of intertwined reasons -- I like to write, it's an escape from "reality," I get bored and lonely at home working and need the distraction, you guys have interesting things to say -- but I guess the MOST IMPORTANT reason is that I love the movie. Without that, none of the others would matter.

As for this case, I just think people tend to behave more for one reason than another, and that in highly emotional situations, one emotion tends to predominate. Whatever is going through Ennis' fictional mind at this moment, I don't imagine him considering numerous factors of equal weight. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when I collapse in despair, one trauma is usually foremost in my mind, even if more than one, at some level, contribute to my angst.

As for why I encouraged you to elaborate, it was in response to this:

I was curious about what more you might say if you had time. If you actually DON'T have more to say, that's OK.

In any case, you're right, Ennis is a complex character in a complex situation. How bout we agree on that and leave it at that?
 :)

--- End quote ---

I understood why you wanted me to write more. When I had time to think about it, I just realized I didn't have anything more to say than what I'd already said.

It's looking to me that what we have here are two different views of the world, and of people. Of course Ennis doesn't stop and think about why he's reacting,. He just reacts. And I'm prepared to admit there is a trigger involved here--Jack's implicit threat. What I'm not prepared to agree with is that there is only one reason, or even one most important reason, that he collapses because I don't see people and the world that way. On the other hand, if your "most important reason" is my "trigger" then maybe we're just arguing semantics, as I think you yourself suggested somewhere back up the line here.

If you'll forgive an analogy from my own life, the worst "collapse" I've ever personally experienced was at my boyfriend's funeral. I sobbed on the shoulders of a friend like I'd never cried in my entire life, not even at my mother's funeral. The funeral--my boyfriend's death--may have triggered my reaction, but even here, there was also fear involved because my boyfriend died of AIDS (as it happened he didn't give it to me), and I'm just not prepared to assign a more or most important cause to my own reaction. I feel it's pointless.

But I do find it interesting to try to parse out the several reasons, or causes, for what happens, and in Ennis's case to try to account for the vehemence of his reaction. And it's certainly true that if we didn't love the move we wouldn't be here. It would be just too weird otherwise.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 10, 2006, 04:24:25 pm ---I understood why you wanted me to write more. When I had time to think about it, I just realized I didn't have anything more to say than what I'd already said.

It's looking to me that what we have here are two different views of the world, and of people. Of course Ennis doesn't stop and think about why he's reacting,. He just reacts. And I'm prepared to admit there is a trigger involved here--Jack's implicit threat. What I'm not prepared to agree with is that there is only one reason, or even one most important reason, that he collapses because I don't see people and the world that way. On the other hand, if your "most important reason" is my "trigger" then maybe we're just arguing semantics, as I think you yourself suggested somewhere back up the line here.

If you'll forgive an analogy from my own life, the worst "collapse" I've ever personally experienced was at my boyfriend's funeral. I sobbed on the shoulders of a friend like I'd never cried in my entire life, not even at my mother's funeral. The funeral--my boyfriend's death--may have triggered my reaction, but even here, there was also fear involved because my boyfriend died of AIDS (as it happened he didn't give it to me), and I'm just not prepared to assign a more or most important cause to my own reaction. I feel it's pointless.

But I do find it interesting to try to parse out the several reasons, or causes, for what happens, and in Ennis's case to try to account for the vehemence of his reaction. And it's certainly true that if we didn't love the move we wouldn't be here. It would be just too weird otherwise.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, and it's weird enough as it is!

Another reason, I realized later, that I find it worthwhile to think in terms of a most important reason for Ennis' breakdown is that I see it, coming as it does at the climax of one of the movie's "most important" scenes, as closely connected to fairly central questions surrounding the meaning of the movie.  For example, if you believe Ennis has recognized his love for Jack all along -- as I do and, judging from past posts, you don't -- then the threat of losing that love may be a more important reason. And if you think it's possible that Ennis already is starting to recognize, if not fully accept, the nature of his own sexuality, then homophobia is less important.

I would never deny Ennis' homophobia, though, or try to oversimplify his character. It's all swirled together, all right. The complexity of characterization makes the movie rich and compelling and makes Ennis and Jack so real.

And not to resurrect a debate, in any case. I accept that you and I and others have different macro-interpretations -- no doubt influenced, as you say, by our different views of human nature and life experiences.

I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, Jeff.


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