Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

what's the point of the job switch?

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Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 10, 2006, 05:28:39 pm ---Yeah, and it's weird enough as it is!

Another reason, I realized later, that I find it worthwhile to think in terms of a most important reason for Ennis' breakdown is that I see it, coming as it does at the climax of one of the movie's "most important" scenes, as closely connected to fairly central questions surrounding the meaning of the movie.  For example, if you believe Ennis has recognized his love for Jack all along -- as I do and, judging from past posts, you don't -- then the threat of losing that love may be a more important reason. And if you think it's possible that Ennis already is starting to recognize, if not fully accept, the nature of his own sexuality, then homophobia is less important.

I would never deny Ennis' homophobia, though, or try to oversimplify his character. It's all swirled together, all right. The complexity of characterization makes the movie rich and compelling and makes Ennis and Jack so real.

And not to resurrect a debate, in any case. I accept that you and I and others have different macro-interpretations -- no doubt influenced, as you say, by our different views of human nature and life experiences.

I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, Jeff.

--- End quote ---

At least there's no question that the confrontation at the lake is the emotional climax of the film is the confrontation. (OK, somebody is sure to argue that the "emotional climax" is Ennis in the closet, but I'm not going to go there.)

"Macro-interpretation": I like that!

And thanks about my boyfriend. His family's loss was worse than mine. He was helping his mother and father raise his sister's two little boys. He was a good kid, he just hadn't been very careful about his health.

serious crayons:
Jeff, I was just browsing around on imdb -- I hardly ever go there anymore -- found a couple of particularly insightful and articulate posters, and checked out a few of their previous posts. I noticed a thread from not too long ago in which they were passionately arguing about the meaning of the the lake scene and what most upsets Ennis. And they were split into two camps: One arguing that it was more about Ennis confronting his sexuality, the other that it was more about his fear of losing Jack!

For the record, both made some very good points.

TJ:
In this tangental discussion, WE (me, too) have gotten way OT here. But, I believe that Ennis was actually afraid that if Jack happened to go to Mexico, he would get killed because he was queer. I posted in another discussion thread that what Ennis had really heard about Mexico is that they killed queers down there, too.

I was somewhat shocked when the Movie Ennis said, "Boys like you," to Jack.

In the other thread on BetterMost here, I stated that FATHER Del Mar might have said what Ennis had heard about Mexico and he might have heard it when he was around 9 years old, too. A real daddy would not have taken a 9 year old boy and his 12 year old brother to see the mutilated body of a man who had been beaten with a tire iron. That's as bad as the KKK fathers taking their sons to see black men bodies which were killed the same way. 

Aussie Chris:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 11, 2006, 12:54:57 am ---Jeff, I was just browsing around on imdb -- I hardly ever go there anymore -- found a couple of particularly insightful and articulate posters, and checked out a few of their previous posts. I noticed a thread from not too long ago in which they were passionately arguing about the meaning of the the lake scene and what most upsets Ennis. And they were split into two camps: One arguing that it was more about Ennis confronting his sexuality, the other that it was more about his fear of losing Jack!

--- End quote ---

Well it looks like Katherine and Jeff have just about covered it (and several other things) again.  I just lurked for a while, while you two thrashed this out some more.  I must say that I agree with you both, alternating my opinion like a shuttle-cock in a badmington game (it's a little disorienting).

I like this summary Katherine, that it was either homophobia or fear of losing Jack, and I think we're all happy that there was a proportion of both of these, the question is by how much.  I think I put more emphasis on the homophobia aspect simply because of having "been there and done that" myself.  My own homophobia was strong enough for me not to believe it, let alone accept it.  So when I play out my experience through that scene I see the "belief that he is not queer" being challenged, and this also explains the hostility since this is also something that I did if anyone challenged me.  I know that I can't claim to know Ennis' motivation on the basis of my life, but in my mind, to make the fear of losing Jack the predominant motivation means you have to make the homophobia less important.  And again, in my clumsy logic, if fear of loss is stronger than homophobia then I can't see how he could have a problem living with Jack.

Jeff Wrangler:
TJ, I'd say you got that right about Ennis's father. I forget where or what thread it was on, but somewhere I myself have said that today, his forcing Ennis and K.E. to look at that desecrated body--and in my not-so-humble-opinion desecrated is the only word for it--might be construed as abusive behavior.

Chris, I like your synthesis! You know, I avoided bringing it up because I thought it wasn't fair for discussion, but I do think that one aspect of the "internalized homophobia" perspective is that I think it's easier to grasp if you've been there, and I've been there, too. I know this is one factor in my "identification" with Ennis.

Katherine, I haven't been back to IMDB in a while--I lit out for Bettermost rodeo instead  :D --but I wonder how long ago was not too long ago? I'm just being curious because I argued--make that discussed  ;) --my views over at IMDb, too, but I changed my screen ID when I settled on this little cow-and-calf operation.

Maybe I should go back to IMDb--next year.

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