Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > IMDb Remarkable Writings Rewound
Deliberate Classical References and another 'Jack, I swear' -- by CaseyCornelius
TOoP/Bruce:
Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:03:06 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:32:50
Brokeback Mountain is becoming an emotional touchstone and a singular experience for practically everyone who sees it. Its depth of expression, detail, and ability to inculcate itself into the unconsciousness of almost everyone who experiences it gives the film the distinction of a truly innovative art work which taps something powerful and myth-based.
SPOILERS
Having seen the film three times, each time more overwhelmed by its brilliance on every level, I've been especially struck by Ennis's visit to Jack's family home in Lightning Flat to retrieve Jack's ashes with the intent to scatter them on Brokeback. Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film. It is all redolent of Classical myth and tragedy. Knowing that Ang Lee's background is in theater, it's not far-fetched to assume this is pointedly intentional. It was driving me crazy trying to identify a specific Classical reference until the following struck me.
I've been riffing intensely on this scene and the following may be an interpretive 'stretch', conflating a number of mythic references, but bear with me.
It seems to me to most clearly echo Virgil's "The Aeneid" and the portion in Book VI where Aeneas descends to Hades. Ennis [= Aeneas?] undertakes a 'labor' much as Aeneas in descending to Hades/Hell to recover the ashes of his Beloved Jack and release his spirit from Tartarus where the Sons of Men are imprisoned.
The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, drained of color with a ghostly, unearthly glow illuminating the kitchen through the windows.
Jack's Mother is the Sybil who allows Ennis/Aeneas passage past Cerberus the guardian of the underworld--Jack's Father- the adamantine, unyielding judge of what is meant to be acceptable and allowable.
Jack's Mother/the Sybil mollifies/drugs the intractable Cerberus/Jack's Father with a sweet cake as in "The Aeneid". She offers the same 'cherry cake' to Ennis/Aeneas along with a cup of coffee. Ennis accepts the latter [as an aid to illumination?], rejecting the former, hence, is able to partake of her offer to see Jack's room and the icons and remnants of his life --"I kept his room like it was when he was a boy. I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room, if you want."
Ennis, 'undrugged' by the same cherry cake is able to fully experience the earthly remnants of his beloved Jack's life, the details of whose life he has never fully known or realized, which have been protected and maintained in his boyhood room by his true guardian/Mother.
Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.
Jack's Mother/the Sibyl allows him passage out of the house/Hades with the shirts, placing them in a paper bag for transport, even as the Father/Cerberus states adamantly that Jack is "goin' in" the family plot. The final act of hatred of the Father toward his only son is to deny Jack's last wish for his remains to be united with Brokeback, the only reminder of a time and place which gave him his greatest joy in life.
Ennis's final words of "Jack, I swear" echo those of Aeneas when confronted with the 'shade' or ghost of his beloved Dido who committed suicide after he abandoned her.
Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".
Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?
With the deftness of the great, superior work of art that it is, Ang Lee leaves it to the viewer to answer the final riddle of Brokeback Mountain.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - jmmgallagher (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:21:28 )
Fantastic.
I love that people are thinking so hard about this film.
Annie Proulx's original short story had most of the elements you mention (Jack's mother's offer of the coffee and the cherry cake, Ennis's polite refusal of the cake, her invitation to him to visit Jack's room) but you are so utterly right when you say "Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film."
I will also say that the choices made by the actress who plays Jack's mother, Roberta Maxwell, are incredibly beautiful. Like the movie itself, she is absolutely haunting--the fear in her eyes when she looks at Jack's father, the evident gratitude she feels when Ennis accepts Jack's father's refusal without fuss. Her eyes are as luminous as Jack/Jake's eyes, and because of this, the scene is devastatingly effective and affecting.
Beautiful post.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CowboyFever (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:29:32 )
Speechless .. thank you for sharing
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - NYCx (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:29:33 )
What a wonderfully thought-out post. Very insightful.
It's a very interesting analogy, especially the line, "nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so."
Superb work! A+
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:45:30 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 12:30:06
I agree with you regarding Roberta Maxwell's meaningful, portentous readings of the lines and what she does with her eyes throughout -- it's a stunning, hallucinatory, devastating scene. I'd add the following observation regarding the camera work.
All of the kitchen scene's initial camera shots are at eye-level, the level of Jack's Father's steely, testy gaze as he judges his son's life and the relationship he had with Ennis. It's obvious the Father knew what Ennis meant to Jack and the ways in which Jack had pursued a forbidden love. The intransience of this forced, inexorable, compulsive camera angle shows that Jack's father/Cerberus is in control here as the "stud-duck".
Peter McRobbie, not incidentally, is also amazing in these extreme close-ups.
But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was. She [as the screenplay directions indicate] has never been a part of her husband's life, but has endured the hatred which he feels for their only son.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - adamx013 (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:51:08 )
Yes - I love it. I knew there was a reason that I loved and remembered that shot of Ennis from above. Great analysis!!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:05:20 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:22:09
jmmgallagher
Thank you for properly and justifiably giving credit to Annie Proulx for the initial creation of the telling images of the cherry cake, et al. You're absolutely correct--it's all there in the story. I didn't mean to credit them to Ang Lee. But, it is evidence of Ang Lee's brilliance that he took those mythic images and the tenor of Proulx's writing and 'drove them home' with his visual choices.
The use of color throughout the scene and the whole of the film is a work of genius as well. Numerous previous posts have commented on the color blue as being constantly associated with Jack.
The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, save the prominent crucifix in the kitchen [which we could extend into another whole discussion - the subject and theme of The Pentecost and Jack's mother's faith and her ultimate acceptance of her son's expression and object of love in Ennis]. The only color comes from the red of the preserved cherries in the cherry cake and the blue sweater which Jack's mother wears, the obvious source of the dominance of the color blue in the clothing he wears - the blue shirt, the blue parka about which he questions Lureen, wears on their camping trips, etc.
It's my hope that we could try to keep extending this fruitful discussion along. In total contrast to some of the sub-human rants and hateful messages which are being posted on this site.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - arike76 (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:16:08 )
i'm totally blown away. great work with the classical references. glad i took the time to read this thread.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:42:56 )
Your suggestion about the Dido and Aeneas reference is remarkably persuasive. In an earlier thread another poster made an observation that, in hindsight, appears to lend further support to it. Unfortunately the message has been deleted from the board, but here's part of what it said:
Right after the shot of Ennis sitting in the window, the camera cuts to a shot taken from deep inside Jack's closet - looking out through the closet and across the room toward Jack sitting at the window. It is as if Jack is looking out at Ennis.
I myself found the scene unsettling in the same way. It is as if there is another presence in the room -- the shade of Jack Twist.
Like you, I've been haunted by the look of the entire sequence in Jack's parents' home, and have appreciated reading your analysis of it. More, please.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:10:03 )
naun
I had missed the earlier post, so thank you for this re-stating of the info. Along with the jarring change from the kitchen eye-level shots to the overhead shot of Ennis, the modulation of the shot with a point of view originating from the distant interior of the closet after all of the closely held shots on Ennis was also affective and striking. The idea that the shade of Jack was calling to Ennis to discover the shirts is so moving and obvious now that you mention it. All in keeping with the hallucinatory, profoundly mythic tone of the whole family-home sequence.
Should we start referring to this as the "Ennis and The Shades" scene?
Bravo!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - jmmgallagher (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:16:59 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:51:11
The complex work of art that is "Brokeback Mountain" now has had many authors--just compare the different versions of these few lines:
First, from the 1997 story by Proulx:
"In the end the stud duck refused to let Jack's ashes go. 'Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin' in it.' Jack's mother stood at the table coring apples with a sharp, serrated instrument. 'You come again,' she said."
Then in the 1997-1998 screenplay by McMurtry and Ossana (which Ossana says was written in about three months):
"JOHN TWIST still sits at the table, still and angry as ever.
JOHN TWIST
Tell you what, we got a family plot and
he's goin' in it.
ENNIS, resigned to this fact, nods at the old man as if he
understands.
ENNIS
Yes sir.
JACK'S MOTHER hands him the sack with the two shirts.
JACK'S MOTHER
(sympathetic)
You come back and see us again.
ENNIS
(nods)
Ma'am. Thank you for this.
ENNIS puts his hat on.
Leaves."
Compare these versions with the same scene in the Ang Lee movie (2004-2005), described so well above in the first post.
Neither the story nor the screenplay bother to describe the kitchen interior, although both mention a plastic tablecloth that Ang entirely dispenses with--the table on which "Jack's mother" so carefully places the cup of coffee is bare and gleaming.
And think what Roberta Maxwell does with the parenthetic instruction in the screenplay: "(sympathetic)"--she gives, instead, a full and complex account of her relationships with her dead son, with her angry husband, and her hopes for a man she knows to have been her dead son's lover. Ang is famous for giving little or no instructions to his actors, expecting them, rather, to "deliver." Think what she does, with her character, who is not even given a name, and in such little time!
I do agree that the actor Peter McRobbie, as John Twist, is also remarkable. His delivery of the line--
"Tell you what. I know where Brokeback Mountain is."
--is absolutely chilling. (All of his lines are from the original story, nearly verbatim.)
Ironic when you think that such people haven't a hope of being recognized even as "supporting actors" when honors like the Oscars are dispensed.
But this is just one moment. The entire movie is a miracle.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:23:34 )
naun
I confess that I'm trolling in two streams regarding the Classic references.
A poster wdj on Dave Cullen's amazing forum http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17.285
in reply to the discussion on that site
has discovered a stunningly appropriate reference to Aeneas's beloved male friend Misenus for whom Aeneas is primarily searching through Hades. The Sibyl says the following in the John Dryden translation:
Besides, you know not, while you here attend,
Th' unworthy fate of your unhappy friend:
Breathless he lies; and his unburied ghost,
Depriv'd of fun'ral rites, pollutes your host.
Pay first his pious dues; and, for the dead,
Two sable sheep around his hearse be led;
Then, living turfs upon his body lay:
This done, securely take the destin'd way,
To find the regions destitute of day.
The images and themes especially of deprived funeral rites and sable sheep vis a vis Brokeback Mountain are astounding!!
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:12:00 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 14:56:06
naun
Others have commented upon this elsewhere, so it's not original, but worth repeating.
There is another visual motif which concludes the 'Ennis and The Shades' sequence as Ennis exits from Lightning Flat.
The film had begun with a fade-in on Ennis arriving on a truck as a speck of light in the barren Wyoming landscape, traveling right to left across the screen, carrying his only worldly possessions in a paper bag. His destination is the impending meeting with Jack and the beginning of their relationship outside of Aguirre's trailer.
In stark symmetry to this, as their worldly relationship and his mythic 'labor' to pay hommage to Jack's spirit concludes, he leaves Jack's home carrying the shirts again in another paper bag as his only significant possession, this time travelling left to right across the screen as the speck of light which is his truck traverses a similarly barren landscape. He essentially ends the film with the same physical material he had when he entered the story. [note the later exchange in Ennis's sparsely furnished trailer between Alma, Jr and Ennis wherein she says, "Daddy, you need more furniture." to which he replies, "If you don't got nothing, then you don't need nothing."]
This portion of the film terminates with one of only four fade-outs used in the film, signifying a leave-taking at numerous levels.
Naw, Lee never does ANYTHING...
by - rvognar01 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:20:38 )
UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 11:00:07
"Ang is famous for giving little or no instructions to his actors, expecting them, rather, to "deliver."--oh, and when Emma Thompson sits down and cries for 5 minutes at the end of "Sense and Sensibility," with Hugh Grant patiently waiting for her to stop so he can propose, that'all HER and HIS idea--Lee didn't have anything to do with it... The maker ofd Crouching Tiger, Ride with the Devil, Sense and Sense and Sensibility and Brokeback Mountain just lets his actors do what they please...give me a *beep* break!
We see those in the light,
But those in darkness,
We don't see,
Bertolt Brecht
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - NoLoveForTheEmpire (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:39:48 )
This is a kickass, thoughtful thread and probably the best I've seen on this board. I haven't seen the movie yet but can't wait to, and I'm also a mythology buff and (knowing very little about the short story) would probably not have been looking for such subtext when I DO see it.
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, because I'll be thrilled to look for it in the film.
And keep making awesome posts like this!
Nevermind, it's easier just to call you an idiot. - Brian Griffin
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - sweetlilgygy (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:41:32 )
WOW!! very interesting and thoughtful!! thank u!!
!!The Brokeback Mountain Maniac YEE-HAW!!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - josh773 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:58:59 )
I saw the room as an uncluttered celebration of all the reasons that Ennis loved Jack.
A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself.
When I saw that cowboy firgurine, I had assumed it was the finished product that Ennis was carving in the beggining of the movie. Ennis starts crying after he picks it up.
A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar.
I was more amused by what I saw as a rock collection.
The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film.
He never quit trying.
The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts
The thing that he loved the most and tried the hardest at was also the thing that he could never be shown in public. Jack even sheltered Ennis from fear of discovery in Jack's own home.
hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.
His father would have known their significance and possibly destroyed them, again, Jack protecting Ennis. His Mother kept them safe.
One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - pandelis_1 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:59:40 )
Absolutely, categorically, PERFECT from the minute Roberta Maxwell opens her mouth.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:07:15 )
Casey. This is one of the best insights into the story and film I've read. Thanks for posing it. I liked your take on the ending. It's ambiguity leaves it open to so many interpretations, and their all valid. not to beat a dead horse, but I've been posting on this thread;
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/32370173
as to why I think the ending shot of the grassy field is a hopeful one. Your analysis adds a whole new level to the story. I read "The Aeneid", many years ago, but didn't make this connection. Can you think of any other classical references in the body of the story or film?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:13:32 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:27:13
josh 773
Thank you. I'm enlightened, humbled and fortified by your different reading of the same images and objects. I suppose it's indicative that we all have either an Ennis [me] glass half-empty or a Jack [you] glass half-full outlook on the same events and reality.
I thought I'd made up my mind that the figurine in Jack's room and the one Ennis was carving in the rain-soaked tent on Brokeback were not the same. Given Lee's penchant for ambiguity, it probably doesn't matter, but you've got me reconsidering it, especially since you noticed that the tears started welling in Ennis's eyes at that point.
I had not spied the rock collection, but will look for it at my next viewing of the film. There are other objects as well -- anything else you noticed? I believe there is a baseball mitt [?] and an oblong round-cornered object -- what looked to me to be a bar of soap [?]
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:15:03 )
The rest of your posts are very thought-provoking but this one blew me away! So obvious when stated, but I completely missed it in three viewings!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - josh773 (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:24:29 )
Thanks. I very much appreciated your analysis, but it was so different from my own. Also, did you notice the garish mulit-colored wool coat in the closet. . . a hint of Joseph maybe? (I will NOT make an Andrew Lloyd Weber reference. I will NOT make an Andrew Lloyd Weber reference. I will NOT make an . . .sometimes I can't help myself.)
--- Quote ---
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:29:36 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:31:42
(josh773,
with all due respect for the impressive, dense post of CaseyCornelius.. I just wanted to say your take on the objects in Jake's room was VERY moving- and happens to be closer to my way of seeing- especially the unfinished carving- and the room being full of things that remind Ennis of all the reasons he loves Jack
thanks for the sensitive insights.)
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - littledarlin (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:37:22 )
Excellent observations. I love reading other peoples' analysis of the film, as I have yet to form my own, even after seeing it 5 times! It has just deeply touched me and it is, as mentioned, a work of art in the truest sense. There is so much to take in.
The only thing I'd like to discuss is Jack's father. The impression I get is that Mr. Twist is not an angry man, and he probably had the same understanding Mrs. Twist did, that their son was gay, and loved Ennis. My interpretation was that Mr. Twist was bitter because Jack had always said he would bring Ennis back to the ranch to "lick it into shape", but never came.
It never occurred to me that he was angry because of Jack being gay, just angry over Jack's empty promises, which is intensified by the fact that he is gone for good. Just more testament to the idea that these type of men can not show emotion because in their mind it is not allowed, so they react with anger.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:39:36 )
retropian.. and? CaseyCornelius..
to your request for more (possible) literary allusions-
well---- after my second time seeing the movie, I did come away with a feeling that Ennis reminded me of Billy Budd... (beyond the obvious parallel-)
not exactly Classical but.
and I'm certainly not up to writing about it in depth right at the moment--!
but would be interested to hear both your thoughts..
CaseyC, your post made me realize that not only is the film a cultural watershed moment- but there are probably Brokeback PhD dissertations on the horizon..! : )
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:57:57 )
beyrmama, I think Jack's father was to dense, too wrapped up in his bitterness to understand Jack. Even though he lays out the clues that Jack was gay, it didn't register with him. He is bitter and angry in this scene because Jack never returned with help to fix up the ranch. Jack mother understood Jack, and understood what Ennis meant to him. She and Ennis connect and recognize their love for Jack in each other. Is this the only scene where Ennis acknowledges his love for Jack to another? This is really the topic for a new thread.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:01:35 )
Deliane, I've read Billy Bud and understand it to be a retelling of the Christ myth in a new context. At least that's been the ususal interpretation. Why and how does Ennis remind you of Billy Bud? It's been at leat 15 years since I read it.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:07:32 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 16:48:09
beyrmama:
Grateful for your thoughts.
Keeping in mind Ang Lee's use of subtle ambiguity throughout the film, your take on John Twist is also possible. My seeing John Twist as ashamed of his son derives from Jack's revealing to Ennis that even though his father was a bullrider, well-known in his day, he had kept all of his secrets to himself, never taught Jack a thing and had never once come to see him ride. All indicative of a classic text-book withdrawl of a father from a son whom he suspects is gay.
The Proulx story also includes the horrific incident recording John Twist's abuse of Jack at the age of three or four when he beat the stuffing out of him for urinating on the bathroom floor - an incident which Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana were obligated to leave out given the impossibility of filming it with a child actor and the revulsion associated with John Twist's actions. Given this, Annie Proulx's take is that John Twist at the very least was an inveterate, hateful child abuser from early in Jack's life, before there would have been any suspicion on John Twist's part that his son was gay.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - littledarlin (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:13:55 )
ahh a point I completely missed. I think I shall go read the short story again.
"can't please my old man, no way." you're very perceptive, Casey :)
Off-topic: I really should change my user name. It just happened to be the song I was listening to at the time. Oh well.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - pyotr-3 (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:29:28 )
Thank you all for this magnificent discussion... the best movie chat I have ever seen!!! Bravo!!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - 3of19 (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:35:02 )
Joseph and his amazing technicolor dreamcoat. There, someone had to say it :p
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:36:07 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 16:42:39
I looked up the Dave Cullen site, and somebody there mentions that Misenus was was drowned for hubris. In Brokeback Mountain, Lureen tells Ennis that Jack "drowned in his own blood". More grist for your mill.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:57:22 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 17:02:03
(CaseyC, Jack's father actually urinates all over beaten up little Jack, as he is laying on the floor--
The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, 'You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you,' and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that."
I venture to guess that filming a scene like this would have completely skewed the rhythm of the movie-- it would have become, unavoidably, an emotional climax- instead of a throwaway horrific "aside" as it is in the story- a moment Ennis recalls while he is visiting Lightning Flat, Jack's parents--
so Lee's compromise, perhaps, was to have the malevolence of Jack's father come through in that scene purely through the delivery of Peter McRobbie.
"no way to get it right with him after that" says it all. Proulx is AMAZING.)
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:00:15 )
UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 11:19:27
naun
Is not the number of analogies and symbolic references that both the Proulx and Lee visions of Brokeback are able to accomodate amazing?
It's difficult to conceive that Annie Proulx did not have some of this mythic imagery, language, symbolism, etc. in her mind when writing Brokeback. She is an 'omnivorous' reader [in her words] and her memory and retention for images and languages must make her reference all we have been discussing at an unconscious level. The apprehension of the deepest levels of mythology bred into our unconsciousness will always 'out' of the flesh of a magnificent literary work or masterful film.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:07:20 )
This portion of the film terminates with one of only four fade-outs used in the film, signifying a leave-taking at numerous levels.
A tangential observation here. There's a recurring image in nearly all of Ang Lee's films in which one character departs while another looks on. Think, for example, of the closing scene in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or the one in Ride with the Devil. In Brokeback Mountain, you have the shot of Jack watching Ennis drive away for (though he doesn't know it) the last time. I've often wondered whether that image was a kind of metaphor for emigration, and that thought struck me again when I read something that Larry McMurtry said recently, that "the power of Ang Lee's movies comes from exile" and that this was what made him the ideal director for this story.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:29:31 )
oh my god. that's was beautifully written. I must say for what seems like such a simply made film, it has the power to inspire our intellect as well as our primal emotions and spirit. Thank you for your insight into this scene. I did read the Aeneid in college, and all of that come back to me like a flash flood.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:49:47 )
I will echo that sentiment. I did think that I was, like Casey feels himself, more identified with Ennis, but that wooden horse did bring me back to the carving. You hit it on the head for me.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:56:11 )
plus the whole thing of showing a child's circumcised penis versus the old man's uncut one is problematic, to put it lightly. I don't think there's a director in all of film history that could carry that off with any kind of sensitivity.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 22:26:29 )
retropian
For me another obvious possible example is provided by the symbolic 'wounds' which Ennis and Jack give to each other their last hours on Brokeback prior to coming down off of the mountain. Jack's secreting the two bloodied shirts is to me symbolic of wounds which will not heal. The evidence of Ennis's inability to express himself with tenderness towards Jack and venting his frustration in that final punch is ever present, the blood aging on the stained shirts, but never disappearing. The rediscovery of the shirts by Ennis, the reappearance of the shirts at the end in Jack's closet are akin to the wounds re-opening, being made palpable again after the years of bearing the psychological wounds to which their mutual love has made them subject.
There are many allusions in literature, the most obvious one being the wound that will not heal which Amfortas bears in the Parsifal legend and opera by Richard Wagner.
I dissolve into tears each time I watch the scene [with the lines added to the short story by McMurtry and Ossana]where Ennis, at their very last meeting, responds to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you." with "Then why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this, I'm nothin', I'm nowhere." This and Proulx's two 'refrains' from the book "Let be, let be" and "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" bespeak their difficult lives trying to live out their love for each other and the two wounded souls which result.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 09:05:12 )
I have seen the film three times, but after reading this thread I MUST go see it several more times!! Thanks to all of you who have brought forth these inciteful comments in this thread!
--- End quote ---
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 09:24:45 )
UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 23:09:22
naun
I saw the film for the fourth time last night and noted the points where the four 'internal' fade-outs occur [not including the fifth and final one which closes the film]. Knowing that Ang Lee would not employ so noticeable a filmic effect indicating a 'full-close' without a dramatic purpose I note that they each signal a discovery or revelation in the film, most specially for Ennis.
1] The first fade-out occurs at the end of the re-union sequence where they get together for the first time after 4 years - following Ennis's line "Ain't no reins on this one" around the night-fire next to the river.
This closes with them realizing the 'truth' and the significance implicit in their intitial encounter on Brokeback and the proimise to 'ride it' as long as they can.
2] The second is after Ennis's Thanksgiving dinner with Alma, the girls, and Monroe where Alma confronts Ennis with the 'truth' of his relationship with Jack and his self-destructive, maso-chistic confrontation with the anonymous roughneck/trucker who beats him up.
3] The third occurs after Ennis and Jack's final meeting, where they confront each other with the 'truth' of their relationship: Jack's 'infidelities' fulfilling the need in him for more intimacy than Ennis is willing to provide; Ennis's inability to create a satisfying life without facing the 'truth' of his undying love for Jack and accepting it.
4] The fourth one closes Ennis's visit to Jack's home, where he sees the evidence of and finally realizes the 'truth' of the depth of commitment which Jack bore him and which he HAS to admit he never returned until it was too late - the discovery of the shirts, the symbolic 'evidence' of the 'fatal' bloody wound that marked them both.
This last is striking as it, as mentioned before, closes on an exactly symmetrical shot of Ennis travelling as a point of light across the landscape with nothing in his life save the paperbag with the shirts across the screen in the opposite direction from which he 'entered' the film in the very first shot.
Amazing filmic structure.
And as the months and years go by, one has to assume that this film will be studied minutely for the consistency of all of the interpretive choices Ang Lee makes. We could create another 5 threads discussing only the use of colors and the transfer and significance of the 'wheat brown' associated with Ennis and the 'sky or indigo blue' with Jack and the transferring and intermingling of the colors in their lives [clothing, vehicles, the clothing of their loved ones, etc]. AND the way Lee structures the images in foreground and background in the frame, symbolically linking different halves of the frame - most noticeable in the opening sequence where Ennis is always shot against the buildings hemming him in and Jack is always shot with open fields or other 'free' landscape appearing in the other half of the frame.
The absolute 'stunner' in this respect is the final shot juxtaposing the closet door with the open fields of ripening corn and grain - summing up the psychological themes of each of the main characters and those of the whole film [the impositions of town and society versus the freedom of the open land] with one magnificent ultimate image.
Both the color and frame compositions show that Ang Lee knows and has studied Michelangelo Antonioni, Ingmar Bergman, Bresson, Tarkovsky. Lee is destined to be ranked with all of them in the future.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - losdzez (Thu Dec 29 2005 10:54:59 )
This is a pretty basic question given the depth of your analysis but did you see a significance in the fact that the blue denim jacket (Jack's?) was inside Ennis' shirt at the end, while when he found it in the closet the jacket was on the outside?
I.e., that his placing the shirt on the outside of the jacket perhaps was one more way of showing tenderness and care to Jack that he had not been able to show in life?
Like an eternal embrace.
Someone had mentioned on an earlier thread that Ennis never seemed to comfort Jack. I've only seen the movie once but I do recall that there is a flashback sequence just before Ennis drives away from Jack, to an earlier leavetaking where Ennis comes up behind Jack and puts his arm around him. A very tender and open moment, rare from Ennis.
And the shirt on the outside seems to echo that embrace.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - BannerHill (Thu Dec 29 2005 10:56:22 )
Remember at the end when Ennis is in Jacks room and he opens the window and then sits down? I noticed that-very carefully-The camera lowers down as Ennis sits. I thought how odd that was, and I thought it was as if....we were in the room silently witnessing him. As if we were sitting down WITH him. Did anyone else get this?
Have I gone too far?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - josh773 (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:02:54 )
Also, I think that the card that comes back marked "Deceased" is the first time that Ennis is suggesting the time for their next get together.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:09:13 )
Casey, thanks for another illuminating post. You know, I quite seriously think they should hire you to do a commentary track for the DVD.
the opening sequence where Ennis is always shot against the buildings hemming him in and Jack is always shot with open fields or other 'free' landscape
Rather like the imagery associated with the two sisters in Sense and Sensibility, interestingly enough!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jmmgallagher (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:12:50 )
Probably because Ennis was feeling guilty about August....
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Tantemo (Thu Dec 29 2005 12:10:07 )
I like the fact that Jack's dad is a stud duck. Not the first animal that comes to my mind when I think of a stud.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 12:50:26 )
UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 12:52:04
losdzez:
A beautiful image isn't it? Discussion on it has cropped up in a number of other threads. It's too bad we can't re-organize some of the better posts from this one and others under thread topics.
One thread topic could be [jumping off from your post] the numerous ways that Ennis creates reminders of Jack and their time on Brokeback throughout his life from the begining of his marriage with Alma.
Have you noticed how in the winter tobogganing scene immediately following the weddding scene he is wearing a BLUE wool cap - the color associated throughout the film with Jack? Has to be a deliberate touch by Ang Lee.
And another scene or two later there is a painting of a mountain peak which looks very much like Brokeback hanging in the sad rancher's cabin where Alma and Ennis have set up their home and family. It prepares us sub-consciously for their first reunion meeting and 'the kiss' as it shows that Ennis has constantly been paying hommage to Jack and their relationship with a multitude of tiny, subtle iconic touches.
The use of color as symbol, reflection of, and visual commentary on the relationship of Ennis and Jack could start a whole new thread.
Anyone want to take the color or icon topic and 'ride with it'?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:33:29 )
Casey (and all),
I have been somewhat hesitant to post on this thread because I'm so impressed with your knowledge and analysis. I just jumped off another thread wherein a poster traced the color blue thru the film as an enticement to Ennis - including blue earrings Alma Jr. is wearing when she asks if she can come live with him. Futhermore, this poster pointed out that the only color in the Twist home in Lightning Flat was blue. I'll need to see the film again and watch for this.
I had another reference which is from the story and included in the movie, but I don't know how much of a leap it is. In the telephone conversation between Ennis and Lureen, she says the following in reference to Brokeback Mountain: "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring [quoting screenplay]."
These are lines from the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain," which has a current reputation as a children's song, but (as used in "O Brother Where Art Thou" recently) was originally a Hobo ballad, and one with some dark history. In some records regarding the origins of the song, there's a version which is the story a farmer's boy tells who is seduced by the words sung in the song into going on the road with a Hobo who passess by his farm - the Hobo telling the boy he will take him to the Big Rock Candy Mountains and ennumerating all the great things he will find there - all of which are fantastic, of course. But when the boy returns from the road, he ends the song by telling how it was all a lie and that he was sexually used by the Hobo.
Is it possible Proulx could have had this "darker" version of the song in mind when she put these words in Lureen's mouth (not that I think Lureen was making such an alllusion) - and by extension or choice director Lee?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:36:04 )
Here's the link to the other thread talking about the color blue:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/32520788
Jack's room
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:58:54 )
I had not noticed that the shirts were hidden in a nook of the closet. I went back and sure enough, Proulx's story refers to them as being hidden there.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:01:47 )
In some records regarding the origins of the song, there's a version which is the story a farmer's boy tells who is seduced by the words sung in the song into going on the road with a Hobo who passess by his farm - the Hobo telling the boy he will take him to the Big Rock Candy Mountains and ennumerating all the great things he will find there - all of which are fantastic, of course.
Gosh, that sounds like a version of the Pied Piper legend. If there's any relevance to Brokeback, perhaps Ennis is the crippled child who cannot follow.
By the way, the Pied Piper story makes an unexpected and stunning appearance in Atom Egoyan's film of "The Sweet Hereafter".
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:05:57 )
mlewisusc:
PLEASE !! Don't be hesitant. I'm just riffing here, trying to externalize thoughts as I attempt to come to terms with the emotional response Brokeback Mountain has created in me. I think we're all seeking communal enlightenment and solace on this board. What Ennis says about their relationship should apply to all of us Brokeback seekers --'Ain't no reins on this one.'
Sounds like you should start another thread with the Big Rock Candy Mountain query.
I had another musical thread going over a month ago
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/29901831?d=29901831#29901831
in which I was dealing with the songs with which Ennis and Jack serenade each other on Brokeback in the Proulx story. I had asked a similar question regarding the different sanitized versus saucy versions of Stawberry Roan which Ennis might have sung. I was sorry to see that there wasn't much of their singing in the film.
Afraid I can't help you. But, you should get a response from someone else.
If you want to start another thread feel free to integrate with my content from the link above.
You might even send the query to the forum on Annie Proulx's own site www.annieproulx.com assuming that her son-in-law [the site administrator] might be able to field the question. He has been known to get replies from her regarding various questions.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:22:47 )
Thanks Casey!
I am not very tech savvy (this is my first experience posting on a message board ever - that's what "Brokeback Mountain" has driven me to), but I'll try to start a new thread about the song. A word for you on the Strawberry Roan (which I posted a day or so ago and now can't find the thread!) - I read on a folk music database that the "salty" or "bawdy" version of Strawberry Roan involved two cowboys hired to castrate the horse, rather than (in the regular version) one bronc-busting cowboy hired to break the horse.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:31:47 )
mlewisusc:
There are separate links to both of the versions of Strawberry Roan in my intial post on the link I provided earlier to my earlier musical thread. It will save you a little time if you're looking to compare them.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - losdzez (Thu Dec 29 2005 15:17:19 )
Bumping this thread because it's the type of thing IMDB was [or should have been] created for: people who love films, who "feel" them, and want to enjoy them as the nourishment for the soul that they can be.
I'm writing a couple of screenplays. One of my teachers tried to get me to remove a reference in a scene (not as erudite or classically founded by a long shot as the references here in this thread), and we ended up arguing.
And I thought afterwards that perhaps he was right, since it's symbolism that could be missed anyway, just something simple and subtle pointing to a character's attempt to hide his true nature and/or his unwittingly revealing it. Something hugely significant to me but . . . maybe not so much to others. I came close to acquiescing.
Seeing this thread, and thinking back on the film, I see that even the most subtle nuance can enrich the story - even if the viewer is unaware of the symbolism, the subliminal signals, the images in the background, the vistas, the colors. Most viewers don't know when they're being engulfed by the story, or the storytelling, or how. They just know it works for them.
So I am back to inserting symbols that work for me, because they always and only come from inspiration, the "muse", and they inform and deepen the story, even if the ultimate viewer (fates be praised if this ever gets seen!) is not wholly aware of them.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 16:47:34 )
I must say I agree with Josh's interpretation of the room. I can't wait to go see Brokeback for my fourth time so I can watch out for all these things!!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 17:40:46 )
I am in awe of the posters on this thread. Are they an example of what happens when you pay attention in class? Bravo to you all!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 18:21:05 )
We must lobby Ang Lee to hire Casey for commentary on the DVD! Anyone got his address??
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - abydosianchulac2 (Thu Dec 29 2005 19:57:31 )
UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 20:01:04
I just came back from a showing of BBM at Boston Common (fairly weak turn out, only about a quarter to a third full), and I had tried to keep an eye out for the usage of color throughout the film but kept getting distracted by little stuff like, you know, the plot. What I did think I noticed was an overall downward trend in the vibrance of the color from the rich blues, greens, and browns at Brokeback Moutain to the drab, dusty neutrals that come to surround Ennis's life. Notably, the only real bright colors towards the end of the movie (especially after Jack's murder; after that point, all color seems to vanish into a sepia wash) come from objects in Ennis's life that connect to good times with Jack and the love that they had/have for each other: the red of the post office; the blue of Jack's mother's clothing; and the blue and brown of Jack's and Ennis's shirts, respectively, are all the major sources of color I saw. Everything else spiraled downward losing hue and vibrance until Ennis found himself in Jack's family home which was practically devoid of any color at all. Then, in the last scene, the trend reverses itself almost completely, moving back into the neutral shades of the dust and dirt around Ennis's trailer, then into Alma Jr.'s clothing, then into the shirts and postcard in the closet, then finally full circle to the bright greens and golds of the grasses outside the window in the final shot. If anyone can find evidence to either support this analysis or tear it apart, please post it; like I said, I didn't get a chance to devote much time towards focusing on the technical aspects of the film.
Side Note: Did anyone else notice that the opening shot of the mountains and hills at sunrise with Ennis hitchhiking to Signal and the shot of Ennis driving back home from Lightening Flat were almost identical? Can anyone find a solid connection between them, cause I'm too emotionally tired (again) to look much more into the movie tonight?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 (Thu Dec 29 2005 20:01:03 )
And did you notice the view of Brokeback Mountain in the background right beyond Aguirre's trailer in the opening scene. It looks so majestic in the background - as if it's a prelude to something great coming into view.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 21:02:21 )
I think Casey posted earlier in this thread that when Ennis first arrives, he arrives at sunup in a truck moving from right to left across the screen, holding all his possessions in a paper bag. When he departs from Lightning Flat, he travels at dusk, in his truck, from left to right across the screen, holding his most important possession (the shirts) in a paper bag. At the end of that scene, there is one of only four fadeouts in the film. These things are symbolic of the opening and closing of his relationship with Jack.
Make sure you give Casey and not me the credit for these observations.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - abydosianchulac2 (Thu Dec 29 2005 21:24:22 )
Whoops, mea culpa! I guess I overlooked that in his postings. Sorry, Casey!
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Thu Dec 29 2005 22:05:55 )
I'm writing a couple of screenplays. One of my teachers tried to get me to remove a reference in a scene (not as erudite or classically founded by a long shot as the references here in this thread), and we ended up arguing.
And I thought afterwards that perhaps he was right, since it's symbolism that could be missed anyway, just something simple and subtle pointing to a character's attempt to hide his true nature and/or his unwittingly revealing it. Something hugely significant to me but . . . maybe not so much to others. I came close to acquiescing.
set it aside for a while then re-evaluate. The thing you don't want to do is fall in love with a detail to the detriment of the big picture. You're right, just because it's not obvious to the general audience, doesn't mean it should be taken out. However, look carefully to see if it serves the story, in terms of helping the pacing, revealing the characters, etc. You teacher's objection may be to the fact that it doesn't fit, rather than it being an obscure reference. Good luck with the screenplay, though.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - michellemybell (Thu Dec 29 2005 23:59:27 )
Is this film going to become the next film and compartive literature topic course...to much thinking hurts my head...I cant wait to graduate college so I never have to think again...lol
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - HBFilmBuff (Fri Dec 30 2005 00:16:32 )
I noticed that the reference to "whiskey springs" was first made by Ennis, when he is telling Jack "it's not going to be like that" when Jack proposes they move up to Wyoming together.
So it struck me as ironic, that Lureen uses those same words to ridicule Jack's dreaminess and idealism when she is talking to Ennis about Jack.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc (Fri Dec 30 2005 00:36:02 )
Good point, HBFilmBuff, although I think it actually occurs at a later reunion where Ennis mocks Jack's suggestion Ennis move to Texas with something about talking Alma into letting Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis' girls. Got to go look at the screenplay again!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jmmgallagher (Fri Dec 30 2005 05:43:06 )
Just sneak it in. Be crafty.
Your teacher will just be one of the people who didn't get it all, and that's ok.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Dec 30 2005 10:49:15 )
losdzez "this thread [is] the type of thing IMDB was created for"
Amen to that !! I can't believe some of the hate-filled, inappropriate, and unfit posts which are distracting rabid fans of Brokeback from delving more into the film and its significance.
BUMP
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc (Fri Dec 30 2005 14:26:08 )
On another thread, balrog20 just pointed out an interesting symbolism and I want to put it in front of you folks.
When Alma Jr. drives up to Ennis' trailer, Ennis has just put numbers on the side of his mailbox - as balrog20 says, no more general delivery for him!
To balrog20, this is symbolic of Ennis settling down and making more of a commitment, just as he concludes the film with a commitment to Jack.
What do you think?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - BannerHill (Fri Dec 30 2005 14:39:15 )
That is intersting. Particularly ater seeing the post office several times. Very good point. I guess he WAS settling down, huh? Alll the more sad that now all he's just got a shirt.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 15:46:35 )
Yes, Ennis is re-joining the Universe. And some people think that it is significant that he puts the number 17 on his mailbox. Someone said this is the age he got kicked out of his sibling's house, out on his own. And now he is starting over in life once again.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 16:38:52 )
Does Ang Lee have this many amazing aspects of his OTHER films??
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 17:12:08 )
Funny, it never occurred to me that Mr Twist would be angry for any reason OTHER than his being gay. We gay guys usually start feeling the hatred of our dads when we do something non-masculine at about age 5 and it continues from then until the day one of us dies. It never occurs to me that parents actually get mad at their children for any other reason, since until you've felt the angry eyes of a homophobic parent aimed at your innocent gay self for 10 or 20 years, you probably haven't experienced hopelessness. Unless your parent is a sociopath, psychopath, or seriously demented child abuser.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 06:20:40 )
This thread really needs to be put in a BOOK!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - naun (Sat Dec 31 2005 07:10:34 )
But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was.
It has struck me that this is not the first time we see Ennis touched on the shoulder. In the flashback sequence where the young Ennis is shown the body of the dead rancher, the father's hand is seen on the boy's shoulder. As the boy's eyes widen in horror at the sight of the dead man, the father's hand tightens like a vice around the boy's neck.
To me this is a powerful image of parental responsibility abused. (There's a rather similar shot, with not dissimilar overtones, in Hulk when the young Bruce Banner witnesses a traumatic scene.) The later scene with Jack's mother seems to mirror this earlier scene; it may not be coincidental that the dead (not yet put to rest, as Casey observes elsewhere in this thread) are a presence in both scenes. But here the touch is benevolent, not coercive. It is, as Casey says, as if she is breaking the father's spell. I'm tempted to go further and say that she is breaking the spell cast by both fathers, Ennis' as well as Jack's. Jack's mother, through this small, healing gesture, seems to accept Ennis as a son and to bestow on him the parental love his own father withheld.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 15:29:33 )
I love the contrast to the Aeneid. I just saw the film for the fourth time, however, and I didn't see an otherworldly glow in the kitchen. But other than that everything in the Aeneid comparison is right on target.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - mlewisusc (Sat Dec 31 2005 16:16:58 )
WOW great though!
Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 17:24:22 )
Yes, Roberta Maxwell almost deserves an Oscar nomination for her role. It is small, yet so pivotal, and SO perfectly done.
whiskey springs
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 18:33:39 )
Yes, also the reference to bluebirds (with the whiskey springs) is interesting. Notice that Alma, Jr., was wearing bluebird earrings when you see she & Ennis riding in the truck together.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Dec 31 2005 18:52:34 )
UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 23:04:00
naun:
I sense that you are as touched as I am by the sensitivity and sympathy Ang Lee shows at numerous levels towards every one of his characters.
I've just seen the film for the fifth time and agree with your assessment of the parallel shots of the father's coercive hands on Ennis's shoulder in the flash-back sequence and the beneficence conveyed in the shot of Jack's mother 'blessing' him with a similar touch. You are spot on with that thought.
This time, I looked for more visual motifs of 'touching' and was able to spot another instance of parallelism/symmetry. It conveys yet another example of Ennis's identification of a healing and comforting touch by 'the mother' as an archetype.
The valedictory flashback of Ennis embracing Jack from behind by the fire, singing a song his mother taught him, is one of the few 'tendernesses' which Ennis is able to demonstrate in the film, a gesture also taught to him by his mother from a distant memory, accompanied by the same child-talk.
An identification with Alma as 'the mother' whose tenderness Ennis still seeks is provided by a parallel shot, earlier in the film [but later in the narrative since we see the flashback later], of Alma embracing Ennis from behind, when they are readying themselves for bed. Alma embraces Ennis in exactly the same way as Ennis embraces Jack, same arm position, very similar angle and position in the frame. And Ennis falls back against Alma, in the same way Jack falls back against Ennis, to quote Proulx's story, "leaning against the steady heartbeat."
Moreover, it's obvious that Ennis has a relationship with Alma primarily as a maternal, tender 'comforter'. Alma herself counsels the possibility of Ennis being better off closer to people, not forcing himself to live in the lonely way he was raised without his parents, invoking the protecting concern of the 'shades' of his parents.
However, to relate to her sexually he has to 'mask' her by turning out the light and make love to her in the position with which he familiarly made love to Jack because in a similar way, to quote Annie Proulx from the story, Ennis does not want "to see nor feel that it [was] Jack he held". Or Alma for that matter. He must make love to Alma in the same way, not to ape the act of sex from behind, but using that position in order to avoid loving her or anyone openly, face-to-face. Even in making love to Jack, one cannot imagine a single instance when Ennis's eyes are ever open. Even the 'second night' embrace on Brokeback has Jack initiate sexual tenderness to which Ennis responds as if it were more of a mother's embrace, with his eyes closed, not able to look at or willingly face Jack himself.
It's yet another instance of the heart-breaking inability of Ennis at every level to identify and accept the true object of his deepest love, Jack. It's due to the disgust and abhorrence of such tenderness having been instilled in him by his father forcing him to witness Earl's corpse, the tortured and desecrated result of such a love.
I'm astounded by the depth and richness of psychological insight Ang Lee conveys through these tiny details and the way he weaves them together so coherently and with such fragility as if the film's whole structure would break apart if a single detail was overstated. The film IS a miracle and a wonderful gift.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 19:39:58 )
Exactly. This message board was created for postings like what we see on this thread. Not for childish banter over whether or not Jake & Heath really had sex or not. Too bad there can't be an "adult room" and a separate "children's room" so we don't have to wade thru the silly junk to find substance like Casey's comments.
TOoP/Bruce:
Water Walking Jesus
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 1 2006 06:51:59 )
What was the significance of Jack singing the "Water Walking Jesus" song?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - josh773 (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:09:29 )
The seventeenth letter of the alphabet is "Q".
Re: Water Walking Jesus
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:35:41 )
pyotr-3:
RE: Water Walking Jesus.
I've commented on the songs which Jack and Ennis sing to each other in a previous thread titled Ennis and Jack Serenading - you can probably find it if you go through my profile and posts. Someone else a little later on this thread tried to integrate it with a discussion about Big Rock Candy Mountain.
Jack's singing of Water Walking Jesus - a fictional hymn, the fragment of which Jack sings was written by Larry McMurtry's son, Annie Proulx and another person listed in the credits for the film - is another subtle allusion, this time Biblical, which provides another layer of depth to Jack's character.
We could begin another whole discussion here with reference to Jack's Mother and how her acceptance of Jack's love for Ennis is not incompatible with her faith. And, hence, in Annie Proulx's eyes obviates any conflict between true Christian faith and the tolerance for a man loving another man.
Remember that in the story Jack serenades Ennis with a favored hymn, "Water Walking Jesus" learned from his mother who believed in THE PENTECOST [emphasis mine].
It's touching in the film that Jack cannot explain the Pentecost to Ennis, despite his up-bringing. He confuses it with the Last Judgement, whereas it is actually the beginning of the Christian church, with the first descent of the Holy Spirit, the enlightening 'paraclete' or comforter, upon all believers. Roberta Maxwell's brief, but astonishing portrayal of Jack's Mother comforting Ennis, who has himself offered condolences to Lureen and Jack's parents, is all the more moving as she is the first and only person to offer comfort to HIM.
I'm moved to tears by the pathos of Jack's fondness for the Biblical account of the miracle of Jesus walking on the water and encouraging the disciple Peter to leave the rest of the disciples and join him on the tumult of the waters. What an apt Christian symbol to reflect Jack's more adventuresome, open, and daring spirit in complete contrast to that of the taciturn, mistrusting, fearful Ennis.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - mlewisusc (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:45:02 )
I'm astounded, once again, by your insights. The parallel to Alma holding Ennis to Ennis holding Jack seems spot-on to me.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - anml-lvr (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:56:14 )
Wow Casey...
That's deep. Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you are right on.
Thank you...
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:21:43 )
CaseyCornelius for President!
Another 'glass half full' reinterpretation of this scene...
by - bkamberger (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:29:21 )
...remember that the blood on the shirts is Ennis', which Jack had wiped off with his sleeve. Boys often become "blood brothers" by self-inflicting a small wound and mingling the blood. By keeping the shirts, Jack was cherishing that pact and perhaps hoping that this blood would eventually carry him to Ennis' heart, just as blood does in the body.
I'm not half the classics scholar you are, but I seem to recall several legends in which a fallen hero is restored by reacquiring a bit of his own blood that has been lost. And having that blood be on the shirt of his lost love would surely have even more of a restorative effect for both. The shirt is, in fact, their entire relationship in talismanic form, and it will survive them both.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - diemxperdidi (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:51:30 )
Even though it made me feel very young and stupid, thank you for that wonderful analysis!
Re: Another 'glass half full' reinterpretation of this scene...
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 12:23:24 )
bkamberger:
Thank you !!
I had toyed with the idea of 'the wound' on the shirts alluding to an 'intermingling of blood' which is the prime trait of a Bruderschaft. I'm glad that it's also occured to you.
I had backed off of the idea for two reasons:
1] the wounding was not willing nor intentional, but accidental on Jack's part, eliciting a frustrated, agressive reaction by Ennis -- ie. suggested no agreement whatsoever;
2] none of Jack's blood was spilt -- although the obvious, painful bruise which appeared could be conceived of as such.
Still, I'd agree with you that the ultimate use of the shirts as a talisman [your terrific term !] by Jack emotionally signifies something similar to a Bruderschaft.
Thank you, too,...
by - bkamberger (Sun Jan 1 2006 17:10:34 )
UPDATED Sun Jan 1 2006 17:24:14
...for your openness to different interpretations as well as your considerate explanation of your viewpoint.
You're right that "the wounding was not willing nor intentional," but given the characters involved, how could it be otherwise? Neither could ever quite pledge commitment, or even state his love openly, and they certainly do more than their share of hurting each other, either inadvertently or in an angry form of blind passion. And yet, for all their denials, they ultimately do forge a bond as close and strong as any Bruderschaft. Remember that the memory Jack cherishes most is of Ennis hugging him in a non-sexual manner and humming a lullaby, just as a loving brother might. Remember, too, that Ennis was raised by his brother, who was hard on him, and that his relationship with Jack was probably at least partially spurred by a yearning for a more affectionate sibling.
Since I originally posted my reply, I've read the Proulx story for the first time. Here's the passage that occurs when Ennis finds the shirts, which I've italicized where I think the wording is germane to this discussion:
"It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he'd thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack's own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."
One final detail that might be worth recollecting: In the story, Ennis and his wife live unhappily in an apartment over a laundry, and it is to this place that Jack returns, four years after the Brokeback Mountain summer, to rekindle his relationship with Ennis. Clearly, too, Jack would rather "go to hell," as he says just before their first coupling, than wash out the bloody shirt "in some damn laundry."
Re: Thank you, too,...
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 19:49:49 )
UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 13:03:11
bkamberger:
The passage you quote from the story is very compelling and has convinced me that it does indeed allude to a Bruderschaftich or Bruderschaft-like relationship between Jack and Ennis. I've wanted to consider it and will join you willingly in assenting to that point. My God, just your quoting the passage reminds me what a heart-rending image Proulx has created, destined to be a locus classicus for the symbolic tragic male love story of our time.
The 'two in one' has just now suggested to me the image from Plato's 'Symposium' in which there is a discussion of why we fall in love with various persons - an absurd simplification being the idea that we were all originally part of a double-entitiy being which later was split into two, spending the rest of our lives trying to match up to our corresponding half, whether it be another male or another female. I'm tempted to link this allusion to the unified two-in-one image of the shirts, but will have to give it more thought.
I know we'll both continue pursuing this as I'm sure there must be a more pertinent and exact allusion which we might come across.
However, in the mean time, I'll join you in affirming the Bruderschaft of Ennis and Jack as we form 'ein EnnisundJackebruderschaftichkeitgesellschaftchen' in discussion with you !!
And congratulations are due to you for bumping this thread over the 100 post mark. Long may it thrive.
Re: Thank you, too,...
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 1 2006 20:19:12 )
Perhaps the very act of joining the two shirts together is the talisman that brought them back together.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:10:31 )
adamx013:
You and I share our excitement over this shot with Roberta Maxwell herself -- the actress playing Jack's mother.
In one of the threads containing a recent Jeffrey Wells interview with her, she recalls herself being shocked by that very shot when viewing the film for the very first time on December 9, turning to the person next to her and saying, "Is that MY hand?" It was so striking a camera move she didn't even recognize her own gesture.
You're very kind...
by - bkamberger (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:56:20 )
UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 09:56:23
...to acknowledge my point, especially since I didn't even mention that "Jack, I swear..." is said when Ennis is looking at the shirts and could be seen as his way of finally committing to the Bruderschaft. Interestingly, Proulx tells us, "Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."
The Aristophanes story in the Symposium is a very interesting correlation, particularly since the playwright emphasized that the double-people were originally back to back. Much is made throughout the story of Jack and Ennis not looking at each other, and it's hinted this is because, deep down, they can't face the fact that their "double" is a man. Even Jack's cherished memory of Ennis' tenderness is of an embrace from behind. Ang Lee, of course, repeatedly positions Jack and Ennis in ways that suggest this lack of face-to-face contact, and such a shot is used in the film's poster.
It's also ironic that Aristophanes called the double-males "children of the sun," and yet most of the terrible things that happen in the course of the Ennis-Jack relationship occur in the sunlight: Aguirre spying on them, their farewell before the four-year separation, Alma seeing the kiss, Jack's disappointment after Ennis' divorce, all of the men's violent quarrels with each other, Jack's death. On the other hand, Ennis' violently "macho" outbursts when Jack is not present all occur in the nighttime, as does Jack's patronizing of Mexican hustlers as a way of secretly satisfying his cravings while maintaining the facade of straightness. As you may recall, Aristophanes called men-women, or the original heterosexuals, "children of the moon."
Re: You're very kind...
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 13:12:55 )
UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 15:38:46
bkamberger:
The shirts; Ennis's " Jack, I swear --": der Bruderschaft
proven in spades !!
Quod erat demonstrandum
Moreover, thanks for 'torquing' this discussion back in line with the original 'Classical references' thread title with the amplification and clarity you provided to the Aristophanes/Plato 'Symposium' allusion.
Re: You're very kind...
by - pyotr-3 (Mon Jan 2 2006 18:08:27 )
This discussion must be read by all who see this movie...
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