Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > IMDb Remarkable Writings Rewound
Deliberate Classical References and another 'Jack, I swear' -- by CaseyCornelius
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: You're very kind...
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 21:07:54 )
bkamberger:
I had originally thought that the Aristophanic account from 'The Symposium' might provide a light tangential diversion. However, it's gotten serious. Your reference to my favorite passage in the story [which I've committed to memory I've returned to it so often] where Jack cherishes that 'distant memory' of being embraced from behind by Ennis sent me back to a passage in 'The Symposium' referring to what happens when a male half of an original being meets its corresponding half:
"And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself,[ ]the pair are lost in amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: [ ]
For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover's intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which it has only a dark and doubtful presentiment."
I can't help but hear a resounding correspondence with Proulx's passage:
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and held him close, the silent embrace signifying some SHARED and SEXLESS hunger." [emphasis mine]
With this evidence and truth of the intense yearning on both their parts for each other, is there any possibility that Jack could ever have found a way to 'quit' Ennis or that Ennis could ever hope that Jack would 'let him be'? They were bound together, intertwined as much as that image of the shirts which is their talisman. Being forced apart, 'out of each other's [constant] sight' by societal rejection and intolerance of the possibility of their love and spiritual union created the tragedy.
There, Symposium and Bruderschaft are integrated.
I had first thought that Proulx's image of the intertwined shirts might have derived from another literary or mythic allusion which might still have occured to us. The more I consider it, though, it appears sui generis, a true original. Fantastic !!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - Xodiac-sky (Tue Jan 3 2006 09:31:52 )
Did you cry writing this, because I cried reading it.
All I can say is Wow!
Thank you for making that connection, if that was not an intentional parallel in this movie then its amazing how the subconcious effects our creative decisions.
.
by - bkamberger (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:13:25 )
...for the most enlightening and friendly discussion I've had on these boards in many years. I hope we'll continue the discussion after I see Brokeback Mountain again this week, because I certainly don't want to quit you!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Shuggy (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:17:17 )
Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".
Thank you so much! I've been racking my brains trying to think what Ennis would have sworn, and that's IT - except of course that with his background he could have never have got it into words, let alone those words. Wonderful!
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:51:58 )
I'm not convinced that Ennis thought he had LEFT Jack. Did I miss something? I think he felt as loyal to Jack as he always had.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - vkm91941 (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:17:24 )
UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 22:17:54
Thank You for bumping this. I wasn't going to read it, but am so glad I did. What wonderful, moving and carefully thoughtout analysis of the film. I especially like the links to Aeneas. Incredible! Thank You for your sharing your beautiful words.
Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:31:54 )
If you've only read the first, original post, you're missing about 10 times as much wonderful material from the multitude of other people who responded to it. So check out the replies -- amazing, thoughtful responses. The discussion on this and another of my posts Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move has been nothing short of inspiring and astounding. Everything I've felt this board should be.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - starboardlight (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:46:38 )
wow! i'm stunned at the level of insight. you guys are amazing.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - vkm91941 (Tue Jan 3 2006 23:16:22 )
I have been reading the other posts here and at you other thread. There are some really insightful people posting here and I am impressed and moved and amazed everytime I check in. Thank You again to EVERYONE who thoughtfully posts their feeling, opinions and observations.
Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are.
Re: Final Bruderschaft thought
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 08:30:32 )
UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 08:33:46
bkamberger:
I've appreciated your fine responses, intellect, and sporting attitude immensely as well.
Another Bruderschaft thought and a somewhat tangential one, again, just when I thought it was safely put to bed.
I'd forgotten about the only other direct reference to a Bruderschaft in recent English literature -- the symbolic one between Gerald and Birkin in D.H. Lawrence's 'Women in Love'. Both men refer to their relationship as a symbolic Bruderschaft and the striving and physicality of its expression is baldly stated in their [in]famous, naked wrestling scene. That physical expression links in my mind with the extreme physicality with which Ennis and Jack initially show their own spiritual connection - confusing as it is to both of them. And the Gerald/Birlkin Bruderschaft ends badly as well with Gerald's suicide because of the inability to reconcile his place in the world with his ambiguous sexuality and self-loathing. The opposite character in that work, Birkin, the equivalent of Jack, is the one left to grieve his friend deeply, resolving, in the famous closing lines, that he will pursue his ravenous need for a physical and personal union with a male.
Ah, yes...
by - bkamberger (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:00:52 )
...always nice to be reminded of that wrestling scene, especially as enacted in the film version with Oliver Reed and the Adonis-like Alan Bates, may they both R.I.P.
Although I can understand why you'd equate the conflicted, self-loathing Gerald with Ennis and the more open-hearted and sexually needy Birkin with Jack, it is ironic that the fates of Lawrence's characters are the reverse of their Proulxian counterparts. "Jack, I swear..." may not be as articulate as Birkin's vow, but I think it voices a similar emotion, albeit pledging a different course of action.
Re: Final Bruderschaft thought
by - pkdetroit (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:11:30 )
Damn you bkamberger! I was doin' just fine readin' one of the great discussions on these boards, miraculously troll free...then you have to go and include those lines about the shirts, and I had to gulp down a sob and quickly think of something else so I could continue reading without crying.
I too wondered if the figurine Ennis finds in Jack's room was the finished version of what he was carving up on Brokeback.
I don't believe the father "knew" Jack was gay. I think he found all that talk about coming back to the ranch, first with Ennis then the rancher neighbor, odd and confusing, but I don't think he would have made the connection to "gay". He considered his son a flighty dreamer, wierd and "too good" for the family. It is surprising what parents do not know about their sons and daughters.
"It was the Summer that Sebastian and I went to the Incantadas"
There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...
by - bkamberger (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:54:33 )
UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 11:35:29
...that can't quite be captured on film, alas. As Ennis is speaking to Lureen on the phone, Proulx says, "He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road." It's irrational to blame her for this, of course, but it does make sense that Ennis might transfer to her his own sense of guilt for not being there when Jack needed him -- both at this specific moment and throughout his life.
A lot of people have speculated that Lureen's father might have had a hand in Jack's death, but that's possible only in the film, since Proulx mentions that the father had died by that point.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pauzhaan (Wed Jan 4 2006 14:02:57 )
Thank you for the "essay". I'm a voracious reader, but I rarely come up with subtle interpretations like this so I appreciate those who do. I'm a "straight" 53 yo mother, spent 10years in the Air Force.
For two years at an Air Force Base in Upstate New York in the 70's I was a "girlfriend" to a wonderful gay guy. He was a good friend and I had a great time. I go to dress up and go to social and military functions with him and when ever he left the country for trips of 2-3 weeks he left me his 427 T-top Corvette to drive. His friends teased me about being a personal "fag-hag". It was a wonderful period of my life. I had a handsome male friend who could really dance and who didn't put demands on me and who was always ready to listen. He was not unlike Jack and Ennis in that he was a very rugged "manly" man.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 20:57:31 )
UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 21:02:04
abydosianchulac2:
I find Ang Lee's use of color symbolism throughout the film consistent and fascinating. A lot of this has been discussed in earlier posts in this thread and in two other threads: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
and Spoiler: The Color Blue
The association of a 'wheat brown' color with Ennis and the 'sky or indigo blue' with Jack is very consistent throughout the film. And it's a symbolic way of Lee showing their emotional lives intertwining.
Little details such as Ennis wearing a blue wool cap in the snow-tobogganing scene with Alma, immediately after his marriage as a reminder of Jack and Brokeback. The fact that they end up driving vehicles with colors which match their respective 'beloveds' - Jack a brown truck, Ennis a blue truck. etc.
As I've posted in the Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene thread, a lot of this derives from Lee's interest in the cinematic techniques of Michelangelo Antonioni, who also employed extensive color symbolism in his middle period films.
The summation of this in Brokeback is the final shot you mention of the golden grain [Ennis] the blue sky [with which Jack has always been associated in the film] and the green - the final color suggesting to me and to another poster naun - the generational renewal in Alma, Jr. betrothal to a man who she knows loves her at the same age of 19, the age Ennis was when his loving bond was initiated with Jack.
A few thoughts, which could turn into a lively discussion. I feel that this board needs to consolidate some of the scattered technical discussion about the film, even at the risk of duplicating some of the material many of us have conceived and shared.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Wed Jan 4 2006 21:03:31 )
Sometimes when you buy a DVD you will have an audio track on the DVD where the story is narrated in full detail, making all of the pieces as clear as a bell.
If any story deserved one of these audio tracks - it is Brokeback Mountain. I hope to God that they add such an audio track to the DVD when it comes out. It bothers me not knowing all of the circumstances surrounding the death, what the "I swear..." was really meant to say, and several other pieces of the movie along the way that could be read several different ways.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 5 2006 22:59:33 )
UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 06:57:07
I can understand the desire of a lot of viewers to have more of the film made clearer. However, it seems to me that Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, and, Annie Proulx have deliberately tried to make the story/ film as subtle, ambiguous, and, hence, as psychologically fluid as possible. That's why it works so profoundly on the psyches of persons who give in to its riches. And why it gets so 'under the skin'. Many of us have experienced the way it works its way into our thoughts, hovering in our minds for hours and days after a viewing. I've heard about this effect on other friends and anyone else who's seen it.
It's what makes Brokeback so singular and different from any other film in recent memory - the pacing, its patient yielding of its riches, and its inexplicable perfection in weaving so many different emotional strands which don't seem complex but inevitable. I've read that Proulx and Lee deliberately wanted the reader and audience to fill in the answers to the questions they raise.
I don't see how a commentary or an attempt to explain the details of how it works could be successful without cutting out or denying so much of what we experience in seeing it. Part of the film's success is that we can read more things into it, because of its ambiguity. Look at what we've come up with on the thread.
I can't see any of the film-makers wanting to do anything to jeopardize that. They've all gone out of their way to counter normal expectations, thematic and film conventions, and the normal 'answers'.
I'd prefer to be left with the questions they raise.
Re: There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...
by - amgineurt (Fri Jan 6 2006 13:51:44 )
...that can't quite be captured on film, alas. As Ennis is speaking to Lureen on the phone, Proulx says, "He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road." It's irrational to blame her for this, of course, but it does make sense that Ennis might transfer to her his own sense of guilt for not being there when Jack needed him -- both at this specific moment and throughout his life.
I think this is very significant, as it was precicely this end that Enis feared. He couldn't even consider Jack's idea of having a life together because of the depth of this fear. He gave up the possibility of happiness for it, and I think to him it makes the sacrifice of it all for naught. It's guilt and the idea that what could have been should have been if this was how it would end anyway.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Fri Jan 6 2006 15:10:28 )
UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 15:17:37
I don't see how a commentary or an attempt to explain the details of how it works could be successful without cutting out or denying so much of what we experience in seeing it. Part of the film's success is that we can read more things into it, because of its ambiguity. Look at what we've come up with on the thread.
Casey,
While I can only agree that pat answers would cramp our experience of the film, I'd like to think it would be possible to present a commentary that instead opens people's eyes to the range of nuances that are implied in the film. I can't tell you how much the discussions here, not least your own contributions, have enriched my own experience of this film -- and of film generally, as a medium. Brokeback is one of the comparatively few works of high art that touch people from every walk of life. I'd like others, the people who will be watching the film on DVD in decades to come, to have these possibilities opened up to them as they have been to me.
If anything, it seems to me that Brokeback would benefit more than most films from having not just one but multiple commentary tracks, each examining the film from a different perspective.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Fri Jan 6 2006 20:05:33 )
I can't see any of the film-makers wanting to do anything to jeopardize that. They've all gone out of their way to counter normal expectations, thematic and film conventions, and the normal 'answers'.
I'd prefer to be left with the questions they raise.
Not me. I think a large number of people have seen the film more than once. Besides, once you buy the DVD, the mission has already been accomplished! There is no need to withhold the answers at that point. Whether the answers are there or not I won't buy two of the DVDs. Sales should not be affected by this. Other movies have had a narrated audio track, movies that were ambiguous in places and the narrator clarifies why things are the way they are. I really don't think this will hurt sales.
Maybe though, it's possible that Proulx and Ang want to haunt people with this movie forever, and will leave it out. That would be sad.
TOoP/Bruce:
I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - rvognar01 (Sat Jan 7 2006 19:21:46 )
The scholarship and sensitivity displayed by the three main participants in this discussion nearly brought the tears to my eyes which the movie has so far failed to do.
"You come see us again"--Jack's mother
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Sat Jan 7 2006 19:44:16 )
i will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I do not want those questions answered. so much of this film is built around mirroring Ennis's experience. i think the not knowing is very much part of what Ennis went through. That sense of being tortured by not having the answer is very much part of life, his and ours. I don't want that taken away.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:02:56 )
i will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I do not want those questions answered. so much of this film is built around mirroring Ennis's experience. i think the not knowing is very much part of what Ennis went through. That sense of being tortured by not having the answer is very much part of life, his and ours. I don't want that taken away.
You have a right to your opinion. I thought it would be a good idea for those of us who would like more details of what was going on.
One thing to keep in mind is that if the audio dialogue is not placed onto the DVD, there is nothing that you can do to put it there later. Yet if the narrative is there, you don't need to play it if you don't want to.
I have seen narrative on DVDs that were totally transparent. Who would need it explained? Yet this movie I think would need some things explained. I read the short story, and it does explain "some" things a little more than the movie does. I find that quite interesting. I actually enjoy the movie better when I know what is really going on.
Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:10:18 )
The scholarship and sensitivity displayed by the three main participants in this discussion nearly brought the tears to my eyes which the movie has so far failed to do.
It's funny that you should say that. I took a friend with me to one of the showings. I think it was my 2nd time seeing it. He didn't find it all that sad until I explained to him what was going on. I am not sure if he was daydreaming, or maybe he was preoccupied with something heavy on his mind. In any case, he did not even remember the first scene where Ennis said he forgot his shirt. He did not know what the story was behind the shirts. He was upset after we had a long talk about the things that he did not find clear. He also mentioned that he thought it seemed a little unreal because of the fact that the guys got together for sex so quickly after meeting on the mountain.
The thing about a movie is that you do not know how much time has passed between one segment and the next. I do know that they were together enough to talk personal matters with each other, and Jack grabbed Ennis' hand and put it onto his hard-on under the covers which I'm sure he would not do if he was not 100% comfortable with Ennis. So one has to assume that they shared a lot of emotional comfort between each other at that point.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:19:35 )
but being on the DVD commentary, it will make its way into the dialogue about the film, on this board and elsewhere. whether I turn the commentary on or not, I'll come across it eventually, and will have to concede to that opinion given on that DVD commentary. At that point, what we think happened will not be opinions anymore. People will cite that commentary as source for definitive answer. I'd have to withdraw from the discourse entirely to hold on to my perception, and that would make me a sad mac.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:41:54 )
but being on the DVD commentary, it will make its way into the dialogue about the film, on this board and elsewhere. whether I turn the commentary on or not, I'll come across it eventually, and will have to concede to that opinion given on that DVD commentary. At that point, what we think happened will not be opinions anymore. People will cite that commentary as source for definitive answer. I'd have to withdraw from the discourse entirely to hold on to my perception, and that would make me a sad mac.
By the time the DVD is released, I think many of us will be over the initial impact of the story. We will never forget the story - guaranteed, but we will be over the sadness of the story.
If they don't release the commentary on the DVD when it is released this year, I am hoping that once they start producing HD-DVDs that they will re-author the DVD to have the commentary on it. That will be far enough away.
Even the Beatles were questioned about some of their mysterious lyrics and they freely told people what the answers were. Their music still thrived. At the end of Strawberry Fields Forever it sounded like they were saying "I've Buried Paul" or "I'm Going Home". He's actually saying, "Cranberry Sauce". Look at Eleanor Rigby - wearing a smile that she keeps in a jar by the door, who is it for? Most of that stuff has been explained, but it's still damn good. I think Brokeback Mountain is a great movie. Whether the commentary comes out or not, it will never take that away from the movie. I'm sure even with the commentary there will still be things to debate. Debating is pointless though unless you can find a definitive answer. Why debate something that nobody can prove yes or no? Isn't that a waste of time?
Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 8 2006 08:27:01 )
Some people have very odd misperceptions about what they see in ANY movie. This is inevitable, I suppose.
Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - Darrell-13 (Sun Jan 8 2006 08:54:36 )
>>Some people have very odd misperceptions about what they see in ANY movie. This is inevitable, I suppose.
Yes, and sometimes it is these interpretations that makes us like the movie. I think most of what was in Brokeback Mountain was pretty obvious. I don't think there are any big misinterpretations about that story. The only things that are ambiguous is what lead up to Jack's beating and just what did Lureen really know? Whatever became of Ennis? Whatever became of Jack's ashes?
Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - hibbler (Sun Jan 8 2006 16:02:41 )
Whatever became of Jack's ashes?
Jack's dad said they were going in the family plot, remember?
Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:38:08 )
If Judi Dench could get a Best Supporting Oscar for her ~9-minute role in "Shakespeare in Love", then certainly someone in the Academy should wake up and see that Roberta Maxwell deserves one for this role. She is astounding.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:41:37 )
I totally agree Casey. There are times when I've really enjoyed a director's (or other) commentary, but some films are to me so special and so complete in themselves that I've had no desire to have any "questions answered", although I am also willing to allow those who want to dig deeper in this way their space to do so. Just don't anybody tell me what the director/actors/cinematographer said!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:43:24 )
You bet.
--Ennis's reply to Jack's first postcard.
Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - Flickfan-3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 10:59:10 )
her performance was illuminating--wonder how long she and Heath rehersed it--he said in interview that Ang Lee has long pre-production period but no instruction on set--
did anyone notice how her eyes were always shot so that there was a light gleaming in them--they should have been dead from the lack of love in her life--but they were bright and full of something that energized the viewer--at least it did me
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - quiplash 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:34:15 )
"Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?"
Wonderful, insightful post. Reading about the uncanny parallels you outline, it gave me a chill up the back of my head.
I caught the contrast of the final shot as well. In my review of BBM(http://www.ryanschultz.com/blog/archives/2006/01/movie_review_br.html), I said:
"Heath Ledger as ranch hand Ennis Del Mar deserves an Oscar for Best Actor. When he was on-screen he was mesmerizing. Never missed a beat. During my second viewing of Brokeback Mountain I made a point of watching Heath Ledger's face during the first half hour of the movie, and he reminds me of nothing so much as a frightened child. The only times I ever saw him with his face relaxed were when he was with Alma during the first four years, when he was with his daughter Alma Jr., and of course many of the times he was with Jack. A glimpse of the Ennis that could have been.
There's one scene at the very end of the movie that caught me off guard. If you blinked you missed it, but there's a shot of the Brokeback Mountain postcard pinned to the closet door of Ennis' trailer, which is then closed, revealing in its place the view out his trailer window: flat plain. Ennis has literally given up his mountaintop experience (and the potential to continue it) for a sad, flat life. This movie is all about giving up on your happiness and your dreams because of fear of what others may think, an issue of particular resonance for gay men my age or older."
Again, thank you for sharing your insights with us.
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flics 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:23:03 )
UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 14:24:07
Thank you Casey for this astonishing and truly inspiring reading of the film, and indeed that goes for the many other sensitive analyses. I was overwhelmed by the film, it rushed in on me in wave after wave of unexpected beauty and sorrow. I'd read and loved the story, but curiously had left it somewhere far away. Ennis and Jack were not with me when I first went to see the film. It moved me in ways I honestly did not think possible - I'm saying that I dipped into reserves of emotion I did not even know that I had. For the first time ever I returned to the cinema to see it a second time, in a way trying to come to terms with it, like I was laying flowers at a grave. And I find myself crying throughout the day at the thought of just a frame or two in the film, or a few bars from the soundtrack. Ennis saying "Jack, I swear". I wake up hearing it. I am sure this will pass. But I have never been grief-stricken by a film before.
I came to IMDB looking for solace and was saddened by the cretinous responses, until I came here. I hadn't seen the Aeneid references but you are spot on. They are unmistakeable once you are alerted to them. It seems clear that a course in film could be based on this one film! And this thread has helped me to start clicking the thinking part of my brain into action and enjoying all the subtle beautiful details that make up the film. It helping me to heal, and to feel like the sensible and normal person I (mostly) am.
And of course it's good to be humbled in front of great great art.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:41:23 )
Extraordinary discussion. I hope it continues forever. I have seen the film four times, plan to see it again and again, can enjoy it just for its "musical" structure. Lee's cinematography, blocking, pacing, construction and succession of shots are simply extraordinary. And then there's the story! Endlessly fascinating and satisfying. There's so much to think and talk about.
I am surprised that, as far as I have seen, nobody in this thread has mentioned the screenplay recently published by Scribner. The dialogue and scene descriptions exactly as they occur in the film - plus the original short story and wonderful essays, written just for this publication, by Proulx, McMurtry and Ossana. It's almost like having the DVD!
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - spottedreptile 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:45:49 )
I'm trying to find the thread that was talking about the windows being open and Jack being the wind. When I saw it the other night I was really struck by Ennis opening Jack's bedroom window - it seemed very significant, as though he was letting Jack out or letting the wind in and I can't remember where I read someone else's thoughts about this.
There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
Anyone help?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - ashleyjbear 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 15:01:53 )
"...OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?"
Elysium. In Greek mythology, the abode of the blessed, paradise. Situated at the end of the world it is here that those chosen by the gods are sent to.
I live in Paris, where lovers, and just about every pilgrim in search of beauty, will march at some point down the Champs Elysees: tr:'Elysian Fields'
In the days of Louis XIV, these were actually just fields, but in order to continue the Grand Axis from the Louvre toward his own ideal sactuary, Versailles, it was he who concieved the Champs Elysees as they are today, an avenue of timeless grandeur.
by - jlilya 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 15:12:31 )
UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 15:37:16
When bkamberger said that the double-people were originally back to back, and then they were separated. Broken in two from the back, Broke-back, Brokeback!!!?? A good reason for the title?
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:17:04 )
quiplash:
Thanks for sharing your insights as well. I've expanded my thoughts regarding that final shot, adding and debating other layers of meaning with some of the posters, particularly 'naun' in the discussion above. I say with absolute humility that if you've only read my original post at the begining of this thread you are missing about 10 times as much wonderful material in the subsequent posts and discussions. There's a whole solar system of topics branching off in the numerous replies. Also recommend you check out a related thread "Jack and Ennis-Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move" for more discussion of what I see as Michelangelo Antonioni touches throughout the film, particularly the final shot, which is a summing up of several themes and visual motifs.
Check out the other posts.
It's what this board should be about.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:24:47 )
UPDATED Fri Jan 13 2006 20:50:11
I'm trying to find the thread that was talking about the windows being open and Jack being the wind. When I saw it the other night I was really struck by Ennis opening Jack's bedroom window - it seemed very significant, as though he was letting Jack out or letting the wind in and I can't remember where I read someone else's thoughts about this.
There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
______________________
Hey Spotted,
That was my post. But it was deleted. I was waiting for a reason to repost it. Hope Casey doesn't mind my posting it below:
"The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back"
The elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water majorly influence Chinese Philopshy. My interest became how Ang Lee may have applied those in his directing of BBM. One of the actors, maybe Heath, talked about how Ang did a ceremony to the four corners before shooting each scene. Of course the four corners represent the above-mentioned four elements. So today, I sought to find out where they were placed, especially when they were represented in human form. I don’t have a good grasp of Taoism, and can only reference it in a very Western context…
I am not saying this was all intentional on Lee’s part. What I am trying to examine is how Superconsciousness, or the powers that be, may intervene and influence the affairs of man.
Earth – This is Ennis Del Mar. And what an extreme challenge we have here. Frankly because his name means Island by The Sea . He is the Earth engulfed by the Water. And water is the element of time. Ennis, the earth, at his pinnacle is a Mountain. Brokeback Moutain is the highpoint of Ennis Del Mar. His handicap – no man is an island.
Lee places a curious formation of salt, sugar, and pepper shakers on a table in front of Alma, the morning she waits at the table for Ennis to come back from his tryst with Jack Twist. The three, forgive me, Condiments, form the shape of a Mountain, not unlike Brokeback, next to which is a cup of black coffee. It speaks of Alma’s experience with Ennis – bittersweet. Mountains are immovable, unchanging, at least in the moment of now. And so is Ennis Del Mar.
Air - This is Jack Twist. Jack, uncontained and ungrounded by Earth, moves from place to place, rodeo to rodeo. In the first few scenes we see the wind blowing the grasses next to a moving train. Off in the distance we see a moving truck. The wind kicks up a storm as Jack drives into view. This is Jack Twist, the wind. Jack represents the freedom of the wind, and the danger of a tornado (Twist...Twister).
As a testimony to the sign of air, Joe Aguirre says point blank to Jack Twist, upon his third attempt seeking work on Brokeback, “Well, look what the wind blew in!” Windows originate from wind. Later on that.
Fire – the element, is warmth and passion. What happens when something touches fire? In a literal sense, one gets burned. In a figurative sense, one get’s tested. If the test is passed, one becomes pure. The element of fire represents the love affair between Ennis and Jack. The fire almost dies down in front of the tent that first night, but it’s stoked by body heat moments later.
Later when the men part after Brokeback, some part of that fire was exchanged between the two and radiated like those campfire embers for 4 years. The moment Jack and Ennis reunite we see a spark, a flame, and a wildfire.
Water : In this story, water represents the element of time, passing slowly, passing quickly, water under the bridge. It works against Jack and Ennis in the smaller picture, but in the bigger one it etches their love into something as solid as stone.
In one of the most powerful scenes Jack stands in front of a river…a river that previously reflected a mirror image of two magnificent mountains, and says, as if to himself, “Never enough time, never enough.”
Character Flaws revealed and resolved:
In a back to back sequence Ang Lee uncovers the central flaws of Jack and Ennis.
Jack’s flaw is recklessness. The scene where Jack hits on the rodeo clown, who, by the way, is dressed in clothing similar in style and color to those that Ennis wore. Jack get’s rejected, and possibly even exposed due to his lack of judgment, and inability to gauge a correct degree of discretion. Actions of the sort can be a life-threatening experience for a gay man in a sh*tkicker bar.
Ennis’ flaw is revealed in the next scene. Insulted by fowl-mouthed greasers, Ennis’ unbridled emotion overcomes him, and causes him to beat the heck out of those guys. Poor Alma seems shocked at Ennis’ rage. Fireworks by the dawn’s early light go off in the background to underscore it.
Recklessness meets up with rage on the last trip shared by Ennis & Jack. Jack’s Mexico recklessness meets Ennis’ uncontrollable rage causing Ennis to shut down and stuff. Jack explodes. Ennis implodes.
Observations:
As Jack dances with Lureen the first night at the kickerclub, he is completely surrounded by temptation in the form of men, ALL, save one, who are dressed like Ennis Del Mar – white patterned rodeo shirt with print and jeans! Just like rodeo clown in an earlier scene. At the end of this scene Jack drops the mask he’s put up for Lureen, and we see the depth of his sorrow. It’s as if he realizes he must submit if he ever hopes to survive in the world around him. Lureen takes the lead from then on out.
Lureen is Ennis in female form. Revolting against Daddy, she snags Jack and takes control from the back seat of the car to the back seat of the business. She, like Ennis, is Earth. She’s practical, a numbers cruncher, an unmovable mountain.
Alma is Jack Twist in female form. She is an idealist, and a demanding one at that. Jack is no different on Brokeback…demanding more than beans, not settling for less than elk. Alma, like Jack, has a set of needs that she seeks to have filled. They move into the town apartment, and the suggestions that Ennis seek better employment.
Finished Before They Began
Both of these marriages were finished long before Jack & Ennis reunite after 4 years. The reason they even do reunite is because Ennis knows its over, and begin’s to withdraw from Alma. Munroe, by this time already had designs on Alma, as witnessed in the store.
Jack knows it’s over mainly because it never really began. Jack & Lureen’s relationship was the inverse of Ennis and Alma’s. Ennis, due to emotional fragmenting, pushed people away. Jack, due to the fragmenting of his family, pulled people to himself to fill the void. Jack & Lureen worked because it was an arrangement. Ennis & Alma didn’t work out because it was a masquerade.
And Monroe – he’s just Ennis with an education, a few more layers of fat, and a few more aspirations. Most importantly, for Alma at least, there was no ring of fire Monroe needed to walk through. Monroe was never tested in the way that Ennis has been.
Numerology and Esoteric Symbols
Alma & Jack’s laundry apartment number is 2. The arcane represented by the number Two, in hebrew is Gimel, or camel. It corresponds to safety. As if a journey through a desert is made with a beast of burden like a camel, horse, burro, mule, etc. Ennis shoots a coyote that was big enough to eat a Camel. He smokes Camel cigs - we see him put 2 packs in his shirt pocket. Brokeback Mountain is symbolic of the last straw...
THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK.
In arcana 2 is not the number of the lovers, as one might initially think (that would be 6). It is the issue of money and possessions, the electric knife as opposed to the manual knife. That was Alma’s focus in this place.
Ennis’ mailbox at the trailerpark was #17. It reduces numerologically to 8, which means rebirth. It represents a Phoenix, a magic bird of fire, that rises from the ashes of death. Ennis, has certainly walked through the fire, and come out other side.
There are at least 2 phallic symbols that I found, but won’t go into detail. One happens as Jack get’s to ride the winning bull. The other happens the first Tent Night between Jack & Ennis, and involves the strategic placement of a coffee pot.
The Point of No Return
On the final trip together, Jack has pushed past the point of no return. We hear his final plea to Ennis delivered in a vocal register from his younger days, “Truth is, sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.” Ladies and Gentlemen, Jack Twist has left the building. Spirit knows the time and place, and this is the foreboding. The shell of Jack that remained did so as a last ditch effort to make a run for the border – to no avail.
With a river in front of him reflecting the element of water, the test of time, we hear him say “Never enough time, never enough”, knowing on some spiritual level that it had run out. Jack heads up to Lightning Flat for the last time in the flesh to help spirit seed his final gift to Ennis…the Brokeback Shirts.
Open A Window, and Let The Light In:
In major arcana a window represents an opportunity for spirit (a higher element of fire) to enter into human consciousness (as opposed to human subconscious). It also symbolizes opening a place in the heart.
Ennis waits excitedly at his own open window looking for the first sign of Jack to drive up for their reunion.
Much later, Ennis ventures up to Jack’s room, in tears, and opens Jack’s window. He sits, as if waiting for a response. Spirit, the spirit of Jack Twist, enters his consciousness, and guides Ennis to a memento of their relationship, 2 shirts hidden in a secret crevice of Jack’s closet. Ennis and Jack intermingled and intertwined.
As Ennis exits the house and stands outside of the door we see above his head, Jack’s still open window, and it’s almost as if Jack stands beside it saying farewell watching over him or perhaps, I will wait for you here until you join me for the next journey.
In the final scene – a picture window of the world, as revealed by Ennis’ closet door closing shut. We can’t really tell if the window is sealed shut or if maybe just the handle is missing. But we do know that Ennis has opened his heart, and when the heart is open, other windows of opportunity can appear at any time.
Is this Ennis’ rebirth, the bird of fire, up from the ashes?
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:42:31 )
hey flashframe:
Absolutely delighted to have your 'Straw/Camel' post back. I'd searched through the first 80 pages of the board hoping to find it and a link for spotted reptile, but couldn't find it. It's full of wonderful brilliant insights. Bravo!!
Did you, personally, delete it? Or was it deleted by the administrator? I'm thinking that I should copy some of the material here in case it gets deleted by some random action. It's too good to lose.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:51:03 )
UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 23:01:57
I didn't delete it. A lot of threads were gone the next day. I figured imdb was trying to save bandwidth.
BTW - I have been totally into this thread since it first appeared, and really enjoy your thoughts on this Casey.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
(TOoP's note: What none of us knew at the time was that this was the beginning of the silent trolls attacks that brought down thread after thread of incredible postings here... IMDB adminstators stood by as thread after thread in these forums were deleted. In frustration, many of these posters started up and moved to a new site: BetterMost.org)
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:31:10 )
UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 07:04:36
flashframe:
Right back at you. Have appreciated your contributions as well!
I got a little spooked by your experience having your "Straw/Camel" post arbitrarily deleted. When I think of how great it was, to think that it could just disappear is appalling - especially considering the dross which remains on this board.
I've taken the liberty of copying your Straw/Camel post for preservation. Hope you don't mind. As well as the Lake Scene and Classical References posts and replies.
We could write a book.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - Ellemeno 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:35:21 )
"We could write a book."
I have two responses:
1) Do it!!
2) We all have written an encyclopedia, 79,872 posts and counting.
Write the book!
I'll stick with beans............
......................Well, I won't.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 01:26:32 )
LOL! Of the two of us...you're the true intellect...I'm just groping around in the dark for answers.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - Ellemeno 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 02:45:50 )
"I'm just groping around in the dark for answers."
flashframe777, just like Jake in the first tent scene, and look what he found!
I'll stick with beans............
......................Well, I won't.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - spottedreptile 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 03:00:23 )
oh my thank you so much Flashframe! I've been looking and looking for that post. How bizarre that it got deleted, maybe by mistake?
Anyway it's just GREAT that you brought it back. I'm going to save it to my hard drive so it won't get lost again.
yeah, that book would be a big 'un.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - naun 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:12:23 )
We could write a book.
Casey, flashframe777, it may interest you to know that somebody apparently is planning to edit a volume of essays on Brokeback Mountain. It's mentioned right at the end of the article linked below. Perhaps you could contribute to the book?
http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/12/15/news/wyoming/326c9c98ce1669d3872570d70075314f.txt
Flashframe777, thanks for reposting your earth/air/fire/water analysis, which has been a thrill to read. I missed it the first time. The equation of water, in the form of the passing river, with the passage of time hadn't occurred to me. I suppose you are thinking of the saying about never stepping in the same river twice, and the two lovers never recapturing their time on Brokeback Mountain. Previously I'd associated the water with the idea of purity and guiltlessness, which I suppose is a fairly obvious association to make.
I'd also never noticed the parallel between the two window scenes, but had been intrigued by Ennis' action of opening the window. Your interpretation makes wonderful sense of it, and also of the shots that follow in that scene, which, as someone pointed out on this board, subliminally suggest Jack's presence in the room. The air/wind idea adds something to that final shot in the movie as well, where we see the stalks swaying in the breeze.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:22:47 )
ashleyjbear:
I know the Grand Axis well. On a visit this past summer I walked from the Louvre through the Arche de Triomphe to the Grande Arche of La Defense marvelling at the Grand Perspective and the vision of both Louis XIV and the Grand Travaux of Francois Mitterand.
However, walking past the current megastores on the Champs Elysees it's hard to reconcile the vision of Elysium [Greek derivation] or the interchangeable Elysian Fields [Anglicized Latin derivation via French] with your description of the original whether Attic or Parisian.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - goldilocks_78 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:27:37 )
Casey Cornelius (and all others):
Thank you so much for your insightful comments and all your interpretations. This might be a never-ending thread! I actually spent hours reading through it and it has been among the most meaningful spent time I can think of. People like you make it worth coming back to this board for a high-altitude spiritual experience once in a while. This topic deserves to be remembered and if it is not a good idea to have commentaries on the DVD, then at least this written discussion could surely have been published with the DVD, hell yeah. It is true that the immediate experience of seeing a movie is each person’s own. Also, details of a story can have a different meaning to the author, the moviemaker and the viewer. However, to hear other people’s interpretations enriches the experience. I think that many people who see this movie for the first time just do not see the significance of all the little things and come back saying “What was the fuzz about? This was just another boring, slow movie where nothing really happened.” Reading a discussion like this leaves me in awe of the depths of this movie and of Ang Lee’s genius. Your comment also added substance to my sombre and unsettling feeling about the whole scene with Ennis in Lightning Flat. This was the part of the movie that I think worked most profoundly on my psyche, and left me disturbed. And it is unbelievable that there are so many things I have not yet noticed after two viewings. This movie is a great piece of art and can be seen over and over again, each time noticing significant details and use of symbols, each time adding new depths. Oh, I have to go and watch it again.
What amazes me the most about the making of the movie is how well they have kept it in line with the original short-story. Imagine, such a sparsely written story, with such huge depths. And everything that is added just enriches it and makes it into something bigger. And discussing it makes it into something overwhelming. Funny, for instance, how this one discussion is already far longer than the short-story…
While you are into use of symbolism though, I would like to add something that I am surprised hasn’t yet been mentioned, which is the hats. (Or have I just missed it? If so, I’m sorry). I don’t know if it is far-fetched or just too obvious, but we once earlier discussed the significance of the hats. The hats seem to be used as shields to hide themselves behind, emotionally. At their first meeting, it is obvious that Jack cannot get through and get to know Ennis, as his face is completely hidden beneath his hat. In the second tent scene, Jack takes Ennis’ hat and puts it to the ground, i.e. putting down Ennis’ defenses. When they say goodbye after their descent from Brokeback and Ennis says he won’t return the next summer, the until then open Jack closes down and returns inside himself, dropping his head, looking down and disappearing behind his hat. When they reunite, Ennis does not wear a hat. And, on my second viewing, I noticed another interesting detail: In the scene by the campfire where, at first, Ennis is lying on his back on the ground, hatless, completely at ease, saying that he is thanking his lucky star [for Jack not bringing the harmonica…] and so on, then Jack says: “You know it could be like this, always..” and proposes to start a ranch together etc…. Right away, Ennis sits up, takes his hat on and hides himself again, closes up completely, starts mumbling. “I told you, it ain’t gonna be that way”.
These are just immediate thoughts by a non-scholar though… but it is thrilling to think of that probably nothing is accidental and everything is there for a purpose.
Again, thank you so much for creating and contributing to this beautiful thread! (and BUMP away)
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - goldilocks_78 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:39:00 )
There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
Wow, thanks for bringing in that line! I smiled to myself when watching that as all I could think about was Donnie Darko's father saying: "Look what the cat drew in!" Didn't know if that was an intentional parallell or not.
Seems to me that people's immediate interpretations to this movie are on somewhat different levels... What a joy that we can go to this board and get some more substance to our own experiences...
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 09:12:23 )
Goldilocks...Great commentary on the hats.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - adammc80 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 09:23:21 )
Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.
This part of your post moved me to tears, CaseyCornelius. I never thought of it like that. Absolutely heart-breaking.
TOoP/Bruce:
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:03:57 )
Regarding hats, note that in the scene in the house with Jack's parents, Ennis is hatless, neither wears nor carries a hat. For the first time we encounter Ennis Del Mar - and Heath Ledger - stripped bare, in the rough, exposed and cruelly open. He is finally ready to confront Jack with total honesty.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - ashleyjbear 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:07:03 )
"...I walked from the Louvre through the Arche de Triomphe to the Grande Arche of La Defense marvelling at the Grand Perspective and the vision of both Louis XIV and the Grand Travaux of Francois Mitterand."
This is precisely the sentiment of 'timeless grandeur' I intended, not the 'megastores'. I think we're in violent agreeement...
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - The_Naked_Librarian 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:59:40 )
That moment when you first see Jack's room, how spare and mean it is, is as piercing as anything I've seen in a movie. It only occurred to me later how very like it Ennis's trailer is--even down to the shirts in the closet and the view out the window. I think you can read that any number of ways. Possibly it means Ennis is finally ready, like Jack was already in childhood, to dream of a better life and try to live it (as signified by his at long last allowing his daughter fully into his life, and vice versa). Yet somehow in my heart I don't believe that, because the movie leaves me more with the ache of regret than with any great hope.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - austendw 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 15:45:23 )
But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was. She [as the screenplay directions indicate] has never been a part of her husband's life, but has endured the hatred which he feels for their only son.
That may be the best and most powerful shot of the whole movie for me. I am very impressed with your analysis of this scene in filmic terms.
Deliberate Classical references and Questions....
by - flashframe777 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 17:27:32 )
UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 17:30:10
What's your take on the quick scene where Ennis is laying down hot pavement talking to the guy who says something to the effect of, "My wife keeps asking me to quit. But I tell her strong backs and weak minds run in my family"? It happens right after Ennis' wedding. I know it's there for a reason. The first time I saw the scene, I just thought the man was just there to annoy Ennis. Now I think that it shows a man who was in a loving marriage holding up a mirror to Ennis, who was not in a loving marriage. His wife wants him home, but Alma want's Ennis to work harder. Your take?
There are lots of references to Ice throughout the movie. Lureen tells Jack he wore the parka last when they had that big Ice Storm (I have not seen the movie - "Ice Storm"). Then there's the hailstorm. Ennis falls asleep and his tent gets covered in the snow. The first time we see Alma and Ennis together it is in a field of snow. I relate the snow to water, and water to time...so snow would be "a moment frozen in time."
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Deliberate Classical references and Questions....
by - austendw 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 05:29:26 )
There are lots of references to Ice throughout the movie. Lureen tells Jack he wore the parka last when they had that big Ice Storm (I have not seen the movie - "Ice Storm"). Then there's the hailstorm. Ennis falls asleep and his tent gets covered in the snow. The first time we see Alma and Ennis together it is in a field of snow. I relate the snow to water, and water to time...so snow would be "a moment frozen in time."
I tend to think of ice as the quintessence of coldness, viewed either physically or metaphorically - emotionally. Ennis's snow covered tent suggests his loneliness, his need for emotional warmth and affection. On the night of their first f-ck, Ennis is sleeping alone outdoors under a thin film of icy dew (unless I'm misremembering?) and it is this extreme coldness, and aloneness, which at last gets him snuggled up with Jack in the tent. In fact it may be precisely in order to emphasise this image of coldness/aloneness that the film makes a change from the story at this point: in the story Ennis moves from the tent's ground sheet to the bed roll; in the film it's from outside the tent to inside.
Alma and Ennis in the snow may suggest that the warmth Ennis has with Jack is really lacking in their relationship. The parka? Well, I reckon that's just a parka. And as to the hail storm, I'm afraid my memory isn't functioning well - I have only a vague recollection of that scene: I've only seen the movie once, last Sunday, and until I've been to see it again (and maybe take notes) I'm not going to be able to make any even vaguely intelligent comments.
Cheers
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jlilya 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:21:11 )
This next two paragraphs were written by Casey Cornelius and bkamberger, respectivley and it made me think about the title of the book:
The 'two in one' has just now suggested to me the image from Plato's 'Symposium' in which there is a discussion of why we fall in love with various persons - an absurd simplification being the idea that we were all originally part of a double-entitiy being which later was split into two, spending the rest of our lives trying to match up to our corresponding half, whether it be another male or another female. I'm tempted to link this allusion to the unified two-in-one image of the shirts, but will have to give it more thought.
The Aristophanes story in the Symposium is a very interesting correlation, particularly since the playwright emphasized that the double-people were originally back to back. Much is made throughout the story of Jack and Ennis not looking at each other, and it's hinted this is because, deep down, they can't face the fact that their "double" is a man.
This is what i think: If this is what Annie Proulx had in mind then the title Brokeback Mountain would tend to support this. In essence Jack and Ennis, the double-entity is split down the middle, in this case down the back, or broken at the back, hence Brokeback.
I always thought it interesting how Annie structured the beginning of the story. She says in the first line "They were raised" , not "Jack was raised in lightening flat" and "Ennis was raised around Sage", but she puts them together right from the start by saying "They" were raised and then she immediately pulls them apart and shows they are opposites (in opposite corners of the state) and describes them as opposites showing Jack's dynamism ( Jack Twist, Lightening Flat, Montana Border) and Ennis's more laid back personality ( Ennis del Mar, from around Sage, Utah line). Then she continues to show there similarities ( from small poor ranches, both high-school dropout country boys, both rough mannered, brought up to hard work and privation, etc.)
So anyway, I'm really buying your ideas about Plato's symposium and the guys being two halfs of a whole. I never could quite totally get the title of the book and it's proiminece in the story, she keeps repeating the name brokeback, but now I think it makes sense, at least to me.
I wanted to comment on one more thing that Casey wrote:
And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself,[ ]the pair are lost in amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: [ ]
Is this possibly one of the reasons for Annie's paragragh " During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf, and sometimes saw Jack......Jack, in his dark camp as night fire."
Also, You could argue that once they leave each other that summer that they are out of each others sights, but from this point on the shirts are together "one inside each othere like two skins" so aren't they really still together, at least in a symbolic or you could say spiritual sense.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:28:17 )
Jlilya wrote:
This is what i think: If this is what Annie Proulx had in mind then the title Brokeback Mountain would tend to support this. In essence Jack and Ennis, the double-entity is split down the middle, in this case down the back, or broken at the back, hence Brokeback.
I love that interpretation.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:40:02 )
The shirts were a talisman that kept them together - Jack's most cherished dream. After twenty years, the talisman becomes a third dimensional connection or portal between the twin souls of Jack & Ennis. Ennis and Jack are together every night in his dreams. And in the morning Ennis hopes a panel of the dream will slide forward - to paraphrase Proulx.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
a mother's love=redemption
by - yaadpyar 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 13:28:30 )
UPDATED Mon Jan 16 2006 13:55:28
For me, one of the most touching aspects of the scene in Jack's parent's home is that Ennis has finally visited Jack's home - finally gone where Jack had been asking him to go for years - but it's Jack's death, the end of their relationship, that enables Ennis to finally take this step. By then, it's too late to have any meaning to Jack, but it's full of meaning for Ennis. He has finally said yes to Jack, and it's just tragic that he's better able to say yes to honor a memory than to say yes in life to nourish love. Ennis holds their love in a sacred space inside of himself, and has been terrified that exposing that love to life in the real world would destroy it and them in the process. Sadly and so ironicaly, Jack is destroyed anyway, without the comfort of knowing that they made the most of the time they had available.
With Jack's death, Ennis is finally able to give himself over completely to this love without the tricky complication of finding a place on earth for them to be together. He can confess his love for Jack in death in a way he never could in life. He speaks to Jack's wife, visits Jack's home and parents, and tells each one of them how he feels about Jack - something he's never before done.
There is only one woman who understands the full truth of Jack and Ennis, and it's Jack's mother. Jack's death has stripped away all of Ennis's excuses - his excuses for not being available, for not making room in his life for what was in his heart. In Jack's mother, Ennis finally finds the one individual who knows the truth, accepts and embraces the love they share. I think her acceptance combined with Jack's death, finally melts something that had remained "ice cold" in Ennis' heart until then.
You can see Jack's mother longing to connect more deeply with Ennis, to talk with him, maybe to hold him, to know and love her son's one true love, to share stories and memories, to connect to Jack through Ennis. But in the same way that Ennis is emotionally constrained/restrained by his fear of those around him, she is restricted from speaking or expressing herself more fully in the presence of her harsh and angry husband. So - everything that can be said without words is communicated in longing silence through their eyes, a language in which Ennis and the mother are both fluent, but one that Jack never spoke well. Jack's mother's longing to connect with Ennis paralells Jack's struggle to connect with Ennis - a longing unfulfilled but undeniable.
I think the visit to Jack's home is Ennis's redemption. His love for Jack broke him down, and the love of Jack's mother restores him. The acknowledgement from Jack's mother in such a simultaneously subtle and obvious manner, despite the father's anger, brings Ennis back to life - gives him persmission to fully feel the entirety of his love Jack for the first time. Ennis can accept love from this woman in a way that he cannot even from Jack.
The poignancy of their meeting is highlighted when Ennis departs the house, holding the paper bag which contains proof of thier love (the shirts). He is hatless, not shielded in any way, and he makes full eye contact with Jack's mother. In my memory, this is the only time we see Ennis make fully expressive eye contact where his words of thanks match the gratitude in his eyes.
Acknowledging in Jack's death what he couldn't in Jack's life opens Ennis to at least the possibility of real connection. In the very last scene when he finally says yes to his daughter, he is finally saying yes to embracing belonging and family. Finally, he is not delaying, avoiding or denying love this time.
And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences.
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 14:13:13 )
And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences.
_______________________________
Wonderfully put.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:38:26 )
jlilya:
I hadn't even thought of the image of Brokeback being linked with an allusion to the 'Symposium' and the separation of lovers. But, your idea is fascinating.
Don't know if Annie Proulx would have intentionally made a connection, but your suggestion certainly suggests an unconscious or archetypal one.
Great work !!
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