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JennyC:
Everyone deserves a pat on the back for your compassion, your humanity, and your progressive views. The first time I wanted to say that, there is part of me meant it sarcastically, but I do mean it sincerely now, very sincerely. We are a compassionate group of people that share progressive views on many social issues (You do know that we are minority in the US, right?) Even the people who disagree with you on certain things are also compassionate on human suffering. Let’s not dismiss that.
As the thread grows, I see the discussion getting more and more polarized. There is the tendency to either demonize illegal immigrants as whole, or demonize anyone who suggests that there should be some control on immigrants. Seems to me that “enforcement” or “control” are all taboo to be mentioned here.
I am not defending Del, as she is more than capable of defending herself, and I do disagree with her on some of her arguments. But she does have some valid points from the other side of the fence. People tend to jump on certain controversial comments she made, but fails to recognize some of the valid points she presented. Then the argument just got more heated.
As to me, I don’t quite meet eye to eye with the rest of you on this issue either. I have asked more than once that if US can really afford to have a sustainable open door immigration policy, if US economy (even it’s the largest one in the world, it’s still has boundaries) and available resource can support such a policy. What if we are talking about 1 billion immigrants who want to come here, can you still whole heartily welcome them. No one address that. I don’t know whether because it’s such a dumb ass question, or because it really contradicts your ideology.
I share your ideology and its principle. Ideology is always grand, but ideology alone does not solve real world problems. There are a lot of ideology talks here, but not much analysis in the context of the issues and constrains we are facing today. A policy or principle not only needs to address the current issue, but also gives consideration to the future implications.
Sheyne mentioned that people are in their Ivory Tower when talking about the issues in Africa or South America, very true. On the other hand, my friends, aren’t we also in our own Ivory Tower to think that we can truly accommodate everyone’s (I mean everyone) pursuit of better life here. Supply and Demand, it’s as simple as that. You need to have rules to regulate the demand. When you have to have rule, then you need to implement it and enforce it, because it’s the only way that it can be fair to everyone. You can not on one hand address the existing issue, but not to address the source of the problem. It will only become an on-going problem. I just do not see how you can get around the obvious. Am I so blind not seeing the reasons that you see?
My dear CT friends, people say that you should not discuss politics and religion with your friends. It’s all dandy when everyone is in agreement, but can we really handle our differences? Guess we are all human…
delalluvia:
Well said, Jenny.
starboardlight:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on May 05, 2006, 08:03:00 pm ---'Solving the issue'...you mean solving the problem of illegal immigration? To fix the problem, instead of allowing illegal immigration and making those here citizens, that won't stop anything. You're right. That's only treating the symptoms and not the cause. Which is, in this part of the country, the Mexican government/economy.
Now an earlier poster just lambasted the U.S. by our habit of going into countries who didn't ask for any help or want any changes in their way of doing things and forcing democracy on them.
Now, short of doing that since the U.S. is 'bad' for doing that, what do you suggest the U.S. do with the Mexican economy that doesn't require making them like us so that the Mexican nationals do not feel they have to cross the border?
--- End quote ---
it wouldn't have to be that extreme. I go back to India and China as examples. As they are now, they're no where near being just like the US, and we didn't force democracy on either of those countries. Free trading simply allowed these countries to develop to a point where their citizens saw hope in their future. I think allowing some of the jobs to migrate down south would help. But we also need to get the leaders of Mexico to address the issue from that side of the boarder too. There could be a harder push to help people find jobs and housing in Mexico. Just as FDR's WPA efforts helped American through the depression, Mexico could start similar campaigns, with American help. I definitely don't advocate American going in and dictating anything, but a cooperations could be reached.
Would allowing our manufacturing jobs to migrate down, be so bad? Sure there'll be issues with sweatshops, but that's something that we can deal with as consumers making informed choices (consumer advocacy did push for Nike, Gap, Mattel, among other companies and their off shore manufacturing plants to adopt more worker friendly processes), as well as something the Mexican workers have to determine for themselves. In addition, protectionism is not an economic policy that can be sustained very long in a global economy anyway. Some Americans will lose jobs as these jobs migrate downward, but that's not new, as time and technology evolves. We seen it through out the industrial age. People adapt as new technology create new jobs.
JennyC:
Del,
As a friend, I still have to respectfully disagree with some of your views on current illegal immigrants. Based on my experience, immigrants (legal or illegal) are general hard working and law biding members of the society, because they cherish the opportunity they get. It sounds like you have known more than your share of bad apples, but that can not be generalized to the entire immigrants. The illegal immigrants do play an important role in today’s economy, and I don’t think we can easily dismiss their contribution to the economy. Without them, we will feel the impact in our everyday life, particularly where you are and where I am. That said, I don’t think you have suggested deportation is the right solution.
I am not looking to get into argument with you :) . You are entitled to your opinion. If we can not convince each other, that’s fine, at least we know where we are coming from (I mean the area). My focus on this issue is more on what we should do to improve the current situation, hence the enforcement aspect and provide current illegal immigrants means to legalize their status.
Talk to you guys later, if you are still interested in continue the discussion in a less confrontational way. :)
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: JennyC on May 05, 2006, 11:08:50 pm ---Del,
As a friend, I still have to respectfully disagree with some of your views on current illegal immigrants. Based on my experience, immigrants (legal or illegal) are general hard working and law biding members of the society, because they cherish the opportunity they get. It sounds like you have known more than your share of bad apples, but that can not be generalized to the entire immigrants. The illegal immigrants do play an important role in today’s economy, and I don’t think we can easily dismiss their contribution to the economy. Without them, we will feel the impact in our everyday life, particularly where you are and where I am. That said, I don’t think you have suggested deportation is the right solution.
I am not looking to get into argument with you :) . You are entitled to your opinion. If we can not convince each other, that’s fine, at least we know where we are coming from (I mean the area). My focus on this issue is more on what we should do to improve the current situation, hence the enforcement aspect and provide current illegal immigrants means to legalize their status.
Talk to you guys later, if you are still interested in continue the discussion in a less confrontational way. :)
--- End quote ---
Hiya Jenny,
No offense taken. There really isn't a consensus on how to handle the situation. And while I agree that our current administration has dragged this issue out in the spotlight in yet another opportunity to polarize the nation, it IS a problem that has been ongoing for decades that has never been adequately addressed and it needs to be.
Perhaps it's that the closer you are to the border and you see how heavily impacted social services/schools and neighborhoods are by the influx of illegal immigration, the more obvious it becomes that this isn't an innocuous situation that our society can - as a whole - keep absorbing without economic repercussions.
I've never suggested we ship illegal immigrants home, I have nothing against legal immigrants. Yes, I have had many bad experiences with illegal immigrants over the decades.
I wondered earlier, if rtprod's excellent experiences with illegal immigrants had to do with the fact that he is, indeed, a white male and that many of my bad experiences came from the fact that I am not. In the Hispanic community, the patriarchy is alive and well.
But I don't think they are ALL bad people, of course not.
I just don't tend to idealize people. I don't care who they are or what they've been through.
As has been pointed out to me, illegal immigrants are humans too and as such not everyone is a saintly, hard-working soul who only wants to do good and not all of them are skanky conwomen. They are people just like everyone else.
They can be the carload of young men who wrecked my car and drove off without bothering to see if I had even survived the crash and they can be Ahmed the manager of the convenience store who saw the whole thing and ran out to help me and offered to be a witness if I ever caught the guys.
As for the impact of their work, I would be very interested in reading any material/articles etc on exactly what that amounts to. I'm fairly sure there should be SOMEthing coming out soon that says what we as a nation lost dollar-wise on the day they left work. After all, we get little news blips about how much work dollars were lost when the White Sox won the World Series or people took off to go see 'The Phantom Menace' back in '99 and this is a bit more important than that.
I don't think making them citizens will solve any problems. We will just have 11 milliion new citizens and the illegal immigration will continue. As I suggested to star, to fix the influx we have to make - at least in the south - Mexico a good place to live and work.
What I see as an economic issue is that many - not all - but many are essentially unslkilled labor. Such jobs are rapidly falling by the wayside - assembly plants are closing, textile mills are long gone, many agricultural jobs have been turned over to mechanization, etc - I wonder if there is much of a future for such jobs and job holders.
As star pointed out, there may be a loss of such jobs, but technology marches on and people have to adapt. After all, there used to be a whaling industry and people made their livelihoods on that.
I read a small article once on the outsourcing in India. How many young people were eager for the jobs since they paid 3 or more times the going wage (which is still pitifully small compared to the U.S.) but I don't know exactly what their working conditions are.
I think star's idea is pretty valid but there has to be some understanding between our two governments. The US could help with money or better yet, 'advisors' and building materials/technology, people who are not necessarily 'running the show' as Americans are often arrogantly described as doing, but people who are there to get the job done and report any suspicious activity to the U.S. authorities so that any hint of corruption or bribery is dealt with with the full cooperation of the Mexican govt. That way, the social programs he suggested would run smoothly and cost-effectively with only a modicum of corruption.
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