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sparkle_motion:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on May 05, 2006, 11:59:47 pm ---
Perhaps it's that the closer you are to the border and you see how heavily impacted social services/schools and neighborhoods are by the influx of illegal immigration, the more obvious it becomes that this isn't an innocuous situation that our society can - as a whole - keep absorbing without economic repercussions.
I wondered earlier, if rtprod's excellent experiences with illegal immigrants had to do with the fact that he is, indeed, a white male and that many of my bad experiences came from the fact that I am not. In the Hispanic community, the patriarchy is alive and well.
But I don't think they are ALL bad people, of course not.
I just don't tend to idealize people. I don't care who they are or what they've been through.
As has been pointed out to me, illegal immigrants are humans too and as such not everyone is a saintly, hard-working soul who only wants to do good and not all of them are skanky conwomen. They are people just like everyone else.
--- End quote ---
As someone who grew up in Grand Prairie for a couple of years (and since you're from this area, I'm sure you know about GP. I was only 1 of 3 white kids in my elementary class), I feel that I have seen first hand what immigration can do to a community. The good and bad. And I still say, they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
No one here is glorifying illegal immigrants. No one here is "idealizing" them either.
But you seem to vilify them and it seems like it's merely based on your personal experience. And based on this experience, you're making broad generalizations about 12 million people.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: sparkle_motion on May 06, 2006, 12:18:15 am ---As someone who grew up in Grand Prairie for a couple of years (and since you're from this area, I'm sure you know about GP. I was only 1 of 3 white kids in my elementary class), I feel that I have seen first hand what immigration can do to a community. The good and bad. And I still say, they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
No one here is glorifying illegal immigrants. No one here is "idealizing" them either.
But you seem to vilify them and it seems like it's merely based on your personal experience. And based on this experience, you're making broad generalizations about 12 million people.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, sparkle but if you read some posts, what you read is a very idealized version of immigrants. I simply pointed out the opposite side of this. Yes, some are nice people, some are not.
The idea that you continue to say I'm 'vilifying' them without acknowledging the fact that there are indeed bad apples who deserve to be vilified pretty much tells me that you are 'idealizing' them.
And as for
--- Quote ---they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
--- End quote ---
please read Jenny's post. She asked how this was going to be economically feasible and she pointed out that she has asked this many times and has received no answer other than a very 'pie in the sky' "Everyone deserves to come here to make a better life".
'Everyone'? How many is that? 11 million, 100 million, 1 billion?
Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country.
sparkle_motion:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on May 06, 2006, 12:25:04 am ---I'm sorry, sparkle but if you read some posts, what you read is a very idealized version of immigrants. I simply pointed out the opposite side of this. Yes, some are nice people, some are not.
The idea that you continue to say I'm 'vilifying' them without acknowledging the fact that there are indeed bad apples who deserve to be vilified pretty much tells me that you are 'idealizing' them.
And as for
please read Jenny's post. She asked how this was going to be economically feasible and she pointed out that she has asked this many times and has received no answer other than a very 'pie in the sky' "Everyone deserves to come here to make a better life".
'Everyone'? How many is that? 11 million, 100 million, 1 billion?
Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country.
--- End quote ---
I am not an economist. I can't give you a solution (you can't either, obviously) to this problem. But I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. And I know it is NOT right to keep people from having a healthier, happier, better life because they were not born on your soil! It's ridiculous! You are villifying them, period. You point out there are some bad apples and NO ONE is disagreeing you with. But what you fail to realize is there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. So, in your opinion because some are bad apples, then they should ALL be punished.
opinionista:
--- Quote ---Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country
--- End quote ---
Well, I thought the discussion was whether illegal immigrant should be sent to jail. Anyway, finding a solution to stop them from coming in is not in our hands as citizens but in the hands of those who run their country and ours. They have to sit down and find a solution.
As for the ones who are already in the country, the best thing to do, in my opinion, is to allow them become legal resident or citizens so they can get a decent job and become tax payers themselves. Immigrants do not steal jobs. That idea is silly and racist. It's also untrue. A whole lot of them open their own business and actually provide employment for other citizens. In cities like Miami, New York, or LA you'll see a lot of successful businesses that are immigrant-owned.
A lot are bilingual which is a big plus nowadays. I have met several immigrants from different countries that are excellent professionals and great to work with. I've had my share of immigrant co-workers during my career as a journalist and can't complaint.
It's true that some are illiterate, but have other skills that America society could use of its benefit. They know how to work in farms, how to handle cattle, some could be excellent herders, built houses, etc. Some women are good caretakers, cooks, seamstresses and so on. It's a matter of giving an opportunity. And of course, there will always be bad apples who would rather engage in criminal activities to earn easy money than actually work, but that also happens among Americans citizens.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: sparkle_motion on May 06, 2006, 01:08:24 pm ---I am not an economist. I can't give you a solution (you can't either, obviously) to this problem. But I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. And I know it is NOT right to keep people from having a healthier, happier, better life because they were not born on your soil! It's ridiculous! You are villifying them, period. You point out there are some bad apples and NO ONE is disagreeing you with. But what you fail to realize is there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. So, in your opinion because some are bad apples, then they should ALL be punished.
--- End quote ---
sparkle,
No, you're not an economist, but you're a thinking person who is capable of voting. I know you feel strongly about this issue, but so do I and so do many other people. Yes, everyone deserves to have a nice happy healthy life.
Now that the idealism has been firmly planted, let's talk about getting it to be a reality.
Not to further polarize the issue, but this is exactly what conservatives are always criticizing liberals about. That we have all these great optimistic idealistic dreams about a world in harmony but no real concrete ideas on how to make it work and who is supposed to pay for it.
Here are just a few typical conservative comments. Mostly about liberals being closet socialiists who don't support or don't agree with the capitalist system and that "liberals live in a dream world of pink unicorns where money grows on trees" . I've actually been accused of this kind of thinking:
"Each according to their abilities. (Open borders crowd and each according to their needs.) Why work??? All a part of Lenin's Communist Manifesto."
AND
"The real issue is this. If we did let them all in, or grant them amnesty which is what the senate and white house are proposing, what makes them think these new LEGAL workers will work for the crap wages, when they will qualify for all the goodies the welfare state has to offer. That is the government will do to them what they have done to the poor since LBJ's great society. Encourage them to stay at home and not work. Encourage them to not get married, so they can qualify for AFDC. The whole gambit. Ensuring their poverty to continue. The real program would be to do things to encourage families to stay together, and work to improve their situation."
AND
"I think everyone in America deserves a fair chance at a comfortable life ...but it is in no way guaranteed and by no means the job of the federal government to make sure it happens. This is the primary reason I consider myself a conservative (notice I didn't say republican, who have proven themselves less than conservative lately...)
Now is the time to show the conservatives that liberals can and do live in a realistic world and can make living conditions work for everyone.
I'm not much of a socialist/marxist/communist whatever myself. I bellieve people who work for their goods in life should be able to keep them and not have the wealth re-distributed on a grand scale.
So, back to the problem at hand.
star has made a very good suggestion. I back his idea. Any others?
In Texas, many border areas and large metropolitan areas are ovewhelmed in their social services/medical aid/schooling.
Many illegal aliens are already paying taxes (if they have fake SS#s, then their employers are deducting from their payroll checks the correct amount of FICA taxes, if they're getting paid cash, then they usually buy local goods and pay a little in sales taxes. I can't say how many actually file and pay federal income taxes).
And yet all this contribution is not helping matters and Texans already feel they pay too many and too much in taxes as it is.
THESE are the problems that need to be overcome and discussed and solutions found.
opinionista
--- Quote ---Anyway, finding a solution to stop them from coming in is not in our hands as citizens but in the hands of those who run their country and ours. They have to sit down and find a solution.
--- End quote ---
I agree, but why should they? Their needy people fleeing to another country certainly doesn't bother them. They're just 11 million people less to worry about. This is why it is OUR problem and why WE have to initiate the dialogue and solution with these countries.
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