Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by monimm18 (Sun Feb 12 2006 09:48:14 )
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Diabolique,
I totally understand your comments. It was only after my third view that I fully digested their last meeting and John Twist's mention of the "ranch farmer". I knew from the first viewing what they all meant, but somehow I refused to see it, because I bonded so deeply with both of them that I could not see their relationship as flawed as they were as people. After the third viewing I remember waking up in the middle of the night with this stabbing feeling of sorrow as I finally accepted that, after their last time together, Jack had decided to move on. Whether he would have been able to do it or not, is left unanswered.
However, I don't see his thing with Randall as a betrayal. I would have seen it if there were any hopes left for Jack about being with Ennis the way he longed to. The fragmented relationship he had with Ennis could make a saint question his faith. All those moments when Ennis put a damper on his hopes and dreams must have gnawed pretty badly at his idealism when it comes to life and love.
Besides, if you remember the scene where he meets Malone, he is not the one to make any moves. First, at the table, Malone gives him that look, but Jack kinda averts his eyes and instead invites his wife to dance. He could have done that in reply to Lureen's spiteful comment about husbands, and to end a conversation that was going sour, but maybe he also did it to give Malone a hint that he's not available. Then, his awkwardness while sitting on the bench with Randall and trying to make light conversation. He knows what Randall's all about and he's uncomfortable. Randall continues with a strong come-on, Jack doesn't say anything, but the look on his face is soo expressive - you can see he's contemplating the possibility, but there's this sadness in his eyes that made me think he's almost giving in against his will. It's like the beginning of his emotional death.
It's clear he started something with Malone when he mentions the "foreman's wife" to Ennis. There's a moment after he tells Ennis about the supposedly affair with the wife that he pauses and I am thinking "Why is he making up this lie about a woman? He could just not say anything". Then he says "Tell you what..." long pause, "The truth is..." longer pause. I could feel him trying to say what was burdening him and I was almost convinced he would say something about Randall and what his frustrating relationship with Ennis is doing to him and their love. Jack was not a deceiving person, in fact his true to himself nature is what made him so lovable. So, it was only natural for him to want to be open with the one he loved more than anything. But, the fact that he loved Ennis so much made it impossible to hurt him by stating the truth, so he chose to state something else, equally true, that I also saw as a cry for help.
The next day Jack looks resigned, even physically ill. His "I knew once" says he's given up and Ennis knows it too. It's the first time Jack is accusing Ennis of destroying their hopes and lives with his stubborness. The first time Ennis accuses Jack that his relationship with him put his whole life in limbo and turned him into a broken man. It looks like the fight two people have when they feel the end is near. Although we will never know if they could have ever really separated, had they both lived.
It took me a while to accept this idea. I was so in love with their love that I wanted to idealize it and thought that it would be belittling it to acknowledge it was ending. But the point was, they were human, and flawed and weak and had their limits like everyone else. Which is why what they had was so incredibly precious - perfection created by imperfect beings, its value multiplied to infinity by its ephemeral existence.
"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by LauraGigs (Sun Feb 12 2006 10:21:55 )
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"...its value multiplied to infinity by its ephemeral existence."
Damn.
What a great thread, everybody!
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by stardog70 (Mon Feb 13 2006 13:11:20 )
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Amen! I'm brand new to this board, in fact to the whole IMDB thing and I gotta say I'm just amazed at the thought-provoking energy, and the love energy, that is going into these discussions. I'm an old, hetero women who fell in love with Ennis and Jack and Brokeback Mountain and to hear their "lives" being discussed in such detail they are reborn in my consciousness as the real people I've been drawn to visit over and over in the theatre. This whole BBM thing is moving me profoundly.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by edelwais (Mon Feb 13 2006 13:24:12 )
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saving in archives
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by starboardlight (Sun Feb 12 2006 10:48:39 )
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perfection created by imperfect beings
that's beautiful.
like you i didn't want to acknowledge Jack's relationship with Randall. I rationalized it as Jack was just talking out this frustration. He does this a lot and the people around him knows it. I wanted to cling to the idea that he mention Randall to his mom and dad because he was just talking out his option because of his frustration with Ennis. but I came to the same conclusion as you. He had to move on for the same of his own sanity. We all struggle to medicate and relieve our own pain when it become desperate. Jack was at that point. I came to accept that it could be either way, and it wouldn't taint the love he had with Ennis.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by monimm18 (Sun Feb 12 2006 11:07:07 )
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Starboardlight, thank you.
I came to accept that it could be either way, and it wouldn't taint the love he had with Ennis.
Indeed. Nothing Jack or Ennis did from there on could have undone what they had for each other.
"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by ikuturso (Sun Feb 12 2006 10:39:37 )
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The very thing I admire in the film (and story) is how it goes so much further than the usual "tragic love story" by very consciously substituting the melodrama for realism. This is not idealized eternal love -regardless how badly we'd hunger to see it that way- but complex human emotions.
In my opinion, the revealing of Jack's other (sexual) relationship(s), is essential for the credibility of the character. That's also where one may see the political aspects: Ennis is forever (in the original story at least) locked in his own prison by conforming to the internalized social rules. Jack, however, is able to survive emotionally by being true to his being and defying the outside values. Ironically, it's precisely this ability to survive that gets him killed. Shut up and suffer or speak up and die.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by terryhall2 (Sun Feb 12 2006 10:55:47 )
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Having been in a similar relationship (his Ennis to my Jack) I can completely understand what was happening with Jack. I reckon he was understanding that although his one real love is Ennis, he cannot go on being unhappy and uncommitted for the rest of his life. The thought that there was another man interested in him (let's face it , no-one in his town was going to open themselves up like that which is why Jack kept going to Mexico) meant that he could possible see a different future. I said to myselfd' well, if he doesn't want me, maybe there is meant to be someone else' (We were also wary of saying that we might have met someone else, in case the liaisons came to nothing) ; I think Jack was getting to this point of resigned frustration. In their final confrontation, I think Jack let it all out as a last ditch attempt to get through to Ennis. Realising nothing had changed or been resolved, we see the hurt, despair and acceptance in his resigned eyes at the end of that confrontation and that's when he decided perhaps to go with the ranch neighbour's offer (maybe) But as alwasy for Jack, it went nowhere because of his death or possibly because he was unable to quit Ennis.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by terryhall2 (Sun Feb 12 2006 11:07:56 )
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Another thought...Jack actually says, as if apologising or trying to make Ennis understand...I'm not like you...I can't make it on a couple of high altitude beep once or twice a year... here he is explaining to Ennis why he goes to Mexico and indeed, subconsciously, why he might have to move on with Randall.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by gduch2001 (Thu Feb 23 2006 09:17:09 )
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then why oh why doesn't he talk it otu with Ennis, say, "I can't live like this any longer, I want someone in my day to day life and if you won't live with me or at least spend more time with me, Im going to break off with you and move on.?
[Post deleted]
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Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by patsnnott (Wed Mar 29 2006 09:47:13 )
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I think Jack gets Ennis's plea when Ennis says, "Then why don't you, why don't you let me be?". Ennis is also begging for the pain to stop, and because of his personality, it is not that difficult. He isn't the emotional type like Jack.
"Ole Brokeback got us good!" - Jack Twist
John was just trying to hurt Ennis
by LauraGigs (Sun Feb 12 2006 11:18:16 )
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UPDATED Wed Mar 15 2006 09:05:41
Yes, I think that idea (Jack and Randall winding up in a committed relationship similar to the one Jack wanted with Ennis) is taking that scenario WAY further than it could have gone. All we see Randall doing is proposing a few weekend "fishing trips"/flings -- ostensibly to go on while they each remain married.
To me that scene just served as a contrast: the proposal of sexual encounters minus the love that had developed in such a pure way with Ennis. You can see it in Jack: the sickened, yet resigned look in his face. Also, I can't see Randall having anything to do with the tire iron, let alone putting others up to it.
John Twist obviously knows what Ennis meant to Jack and is mentioning Randall in an attempt to hurt Ennis. (Twist the knife, as it were.) Heck, it could be that Jack was really bringing Randall up to fix the ranch, nothing more. Randall was successfull enough -- the two could have fixed the ranch, in another attempt of Jack's to better his father and finally win his approval.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by lucise (Sun Feb 12 2006 11:55:27 )
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I agree strongly with most of the points made already.
Jack loved Ennis, and if they got a chance to have a life together, I am positive that Jack wouldnt need those trips to Mexico or even Randall. He was in love with Ennis, but he had physical needs that Ennis didnt meet ("I'm not like you, I cant get by on a coupla high-altitude *beep* once or twice a year"). I am convinced that he and Randall used each other to satisfy their sexual needs. When J & E had that fight by the lake, Jack still doesnt know how to quit Ennis. He is angry, frustrated, helpless - but still wants Ennis. After Ennis has his break down and Jack is trying to comfort him, I felt that nothing had changed as he told Ennis : "its alright, its alright, damn u Ennis". I think he couldnt leave Ennis, and vice versa.
I also hold out hope that if Jack had lived, he would've met up with Ennis in November. But more importantly, I think when Ennis broke down he realised how much he was hurting jack and how much he was hurting too. I think that he might have had a different tune in November. I think he was starting to accept that he was gay and that it was Jack he wanted. Afterall, he officially finished things with Cassie - he wasnt willing to continue with that sham of a relationship. I saw that as a step in the right direction - towards accepting his feelings for Jack and hopefully making a decision to do something about it.
I can see why Jack would go back to Randall after their confrontation. But i feel that if Ennis had told jack in NOV that he was willing to commit, i have no doubt that Jack would've left Randall in a flash.
peace!!
'If you sleep through life, you wake up dead.'
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by Rontrigger (Sun Feb 12 2006 12:32:33 )
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UPDATED Mon Feb 13 2006 01:04:11
This is an extremely long post, and I've been giving it a lot of thought, so please bear with me.
Looking over this thread, I've been thinking that the "lake scene" is about as complicated as any in the film. (Well, no, the "phone call scene" is MORE complicated--if only because it led to the "Accident/Murder War"--but I think we can still discuss this one in a friendly way.)
Has anyone else wondered how it's possible that Jack and Ennis could have been carrying on their side relationships with Cassie and Randall for five years before the subject came up? After all, Jack and Ennis met probably up to three times a year (May, August and November seem to have been a fairly regular schedule) and for a week or so each time.
On top of this, we know that Ennis's relationship with Cassie took place, but we have no real proof of Jack and Randall in a relationship. What happened after they met is pure conjecture. Did they meet regularly to an extent that no one would describe it as other than Jack cheating on Ennis? Did they have a casual relationship where they actually went fishing and sex was just part of the fun? And if Jack had any kind of sexual relationship with Randall, would he have told his neighbor that there was a special friend in his life who would always be #1 in his heart?
Even more complications: When Ennis tells Jack about Cassie, is Jack making up the story about the ranch foreman's wife just to one-up Ennis or is he telling the truth in that story with one crucial detail changed? "Truth" is a loaded word at this point: right after that, Jack says "The truth is--sometimes I miss you so much..." Does that imply that all he just said before that was a lie?
Does anyone think that when Jack arrived at the lake, he was already having all the doubts that we're sure he had when he left? It looks like just any one of their numerous meetings at first. Nothing earth-shattering seems to have happened before we see the argument.
Why was Jack so upset at having to miss August and why was Ennis so terrified of telling him about it? Had they missed "fishing trips" in the past? There are indications of this (Ennis telling Alma after Thanksgiving dinner that he doesn't "fish" with Jack often; Jack's comment during this last argument that Ennis "used to come away easy; now it's like seeing the Pope"). It could have been that they'd argued about this before and Jack had blown up in a way that actually scared Ennis.
I think it could even have been something that would have been interesting to see mentioned on screen: August 1983 would have been exactly 20 years since they left Brokeback. I'm sure Ennis wasn't much into anniversaries but he might have realized that this one was important, and I'm sure Jack was well aware of its significance.
And speaking of Brokeback: were they within sight of it at the lake? When Jack says "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain!", he seems to be gesturing toward a point in the distance. We know they never actually went back there; Ms. Proulx says so and it was a grazing area with no likely recreational spots. But there were likely to be areas nearby that would be suitable for get-togethers and fond memories.
Back on track: It looks to me like Jack is comforting Ennis just as always when Ennis breaks down with "I can't stand this any more, Jack." (WHAT couldn't he stand any more? More below.) Segue into the flashback, then we see Jack watching Ennis drive away.
Strictly speaking, there's something missing here. We know in the story that Ennis got back on his feet and that they "torqued things almost to where they had been". And it seems clear from the story that Jack had had that flashback many times. So there had to have been something more said before Ennis drove off--the last words they ever said to each other, and which we'll never know <sob>. It doesn't sound like things had changed forever at that point.
Then, we presume, Jack went to Lightning Flat as he said he would be doing. That's a long drive from the other side of Wyoming (in fact, I think it's possible that when Ennis drove there, it was the farthest he'd ever been from Riverton in his life). Maybe Jack was thinking about giving up on Ennis during that drive; he'd have had a long time to think on the road.
Now imagine Jack's conversation with his father, which the old prune later recounted to a grieving Ennis. Jack had been telling his father for YEARS that he was going to bring Ennis there, build a cabin, and lick the ranch into shape (something Jack obviously never told the commitment-phobic Ennis). If Jack and Randall really were in some kind of a relationship, and Jack was giving up on Ennis, then it would be plausible that Jack would tell his father that his old plan was still on but with a new partner.
BUT--is there any reason to believe that this would have happened, any more than it (never) did with Ennis? If Jack had come up with this on the way to Lightning Flat, then Randall was just as much in the dark as Ennis was on Jack's idea for the old homestead. And I can't be totally sure from that one scene, but I have difficulty seeing Randall in such a poor, isolated environment. Plus, the vision that Jack had of a life on the ranch with Ennis just doesn't seem to be one that could be easily transferred to another person. Whatever the reason Jack told his father that story, I don't think it proves that Jack was moving on.
As for Ennis, he apparently broke up with Cassie after the last meeting with Jack. Why did he break up with her? She does seem the type one would get tired of after a while--certainly after five years. But is it possible that Ennis realized he was just stringing her along--that no woman would ever measure up to Jack? Did it start to sink in at the lake that he could very well lose Jack? And (as I asked earlier) what was it he said he couldn't "stand" any more when Jack was holding him? The relationship with Jack itself? Not being with Jack? His subsequent actions suggest the latter.
And then Ennis sent Jack a postcard. Apparently he'd done this only once before--to tell Jack about the divorce. (Fair warning--I've long been considering a thread on this topic.) He seemed to be taking some initiative. And since I can't picture Jack breaking up with Ennis any other way but face-to-face (I still don't want to believe that they could have ended the relationship voluntarily), I can't help feeling that Jack would have been there at that November meeting, and that that meeting would have been the most important one in their lives.
Whew! Feedback please (including any suggestions on what to do with a possible oversupply of hot air).
"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by loubyloo3 (Sun Feb 12 2006 12:53:30 )
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UPDATED Sun Feb 12 2006 12:55:43
I don't think Jack & Randall ever got together. I think it was just one of Jack's plans. Maybe if after the meeting in November it was still apparent Ennis was never going to committ Jack may have followed his plans through. But I don't think Jack ever stopped loving Ennis. I like to think that although Jack had lost most of his youthfulness & hope, that there was still a little part of him that hoped him & Ennis could be together one day because his love for Ennis was stronger than any other.
I do think Jack would have definitely met with Ennis in November; I can't imagine him ever missing the chance to meet with Ennis. If he had lived & even if he & Randall had got together I think he would have still met with Ennis.
And speaking of Brokeback: were they within sight of it at the lake? When Jack says "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain!", he seems to be gesturing toward a point in the distance. We know they never actually went back there; Ms. Proulx says so and it was a grazing area with no likely recreational spots. But there were likely to be areas nearby that would be suitable for get-togethers and fond memories.
when they met up for their 'fishing trips' I thought they met at Brokeback?!
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by NewHorizons37 (Sun Feb 12 2006 13:02:40 )
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UPDATED Sun Feb 12 2006 13:04:36
In the story they never go back to Brokeback, but in the movie they keep going back there.
To rontrigger's question about were they within site of Brokeback at the lake -- I thought so. In the lake scene when Jack says "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain" he is gesturing at the mountain in the background, as you note. Even before he did that, I had commented to myself it was the one time that I can think of, where we see the mountain the way it is shown in the postcard at the end of the movie. As if the postcard photo was taken from the spot they are standing.
And rontrigger, you had a great post. Just can't reply now in a way that could do it justice (if I ever could.)
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by jezabel76 (Sun Feb 12 2006 13:23:09 )
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Rontrigger,
thank you so much for your profound posting!!!
I agree 100% ;-)
before I read your post I felt compelled to write that I think Jack wasnt talking about the farmers wife when he made that story up. He was talking about the farmer himself...
I am glad that I am not the only person to draw this conclusion.
Actually, I felt physical pain, when I heard Jacks father telling Ennis about Randall moving to the farm with Jack.
But then again, there is so much truth to that song "If you can´t be with the one you love love the one you´re with".
I believe he still loved Ennis, but as he obviously cant make it on a couple of high altitude beeps he tried to satisfy his needs in another way.
I think Jack never stopped to love Ennis...
But he was just trying so hard to find at least some happiness......somehow.
Sometimes people do strange things... And I am one of them ;-) Believe me...
I once did some pretty strange things to get over a love that was never meant to be...
Maybe thats why this film is haunting me so badly I can hardly stop thinking about it.
Love Jez
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by starboardlight (Sun Feb 12 2006 13:28:21 )
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yeah, Ron, damn long post, but deservedly so for such a complex scene. I do agree with you that perhaps, they'd missed meeting up before. The clues you pointed out seems to suggest it. I think this is not an argument that came out of nowhere.
my impression of jack telling his parents about Ennis and Randall is that he more or less talks to his mother, while John Twist sitting at the table was just listening in. I don't see Jack actually talking to his dad about that. Of if he did, it'd be a peripheral mentioning. Like his mom and dad complaining about this and that needing work and Jack saying "well I can bring my buddy Ennis (or Randall) up and we can help you whip this place into shape." maybe?
Ennis breaking up with Cassie definitely makes me think that he was on his way to accepting himself. He at least realize that he couldn't make a woman happy, and they couldn't make him happy. Which is so sad because for the first time, he's starting to grow. Given time, he might actually be able to see Jack's vision of a life together?
You're point about November being the most important meeting just breaks my heart. I wish they could have had that.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by monimm18 (Sun Feb 12 2006 14:24:56 )
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rontrigger
GREAT POST! I almost held my breath reading it. You made so many great points.
I also asked myself the same question about Cassie. I thought Ennis broke up with her beacuse he realized it was getting too serious and he didn't want to repeat the mistake he made with Alma; but I never considered how long they've been together. Your statement about Ennis beginning to fear losing Jack was swimming in my head, unclarified and ignored, but you just nailed it. You think Jack's rage at the last meeting was the beginning of what could have been a break-up, but, maybe Ennis realized that too, and was willing to make some changes, hoping he could figure things out with Jake at the November meeting?
The "I can't stand this anyomore" thing. Could it mean that Ennis was at the end of his rope having to meet Jack like that, even though it was his decisions that led to that? That after hearing Jack's "I did once" and his admission to going to Mexico he had a glimpse of what's going on in Jack's heart and mind and he panicked, realizing this situation is more complicated than he could bear, and crumbled?
I agree that if Jack decided to break up with Ennis, he would have done it face to face. Like I said, he was not deceptive, nor a coward. But, maybe he needed the extra impulse of a new relationship to muster the strength to put Ennis and himself through the anguish of an open break-up and keep steadfast?
I'd say more, but I am sure my reply is not the only one you're reading...
Maybe you shoud start thread of your own on this issue, hm?
"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by adamx013 (Sun Feb 12 2006 14:46:02 )
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Very interesting discussion.
I saw that people were wondering about past threads on this topic. The following is a good one:
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/35998998?d=35998998#35998998Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by mlewisusc (Sun Feb 12 2006 23:42:37 )
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A post so I can find this later.
". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by Rontrigger (Mon Feb 13 2006 01:11:45 )
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Thank you so much, folks! Looks like this might be a bumper.
"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by chris.j.warren (Mon Feb 13 2006 03:44:53 )
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Hey Rontrigger, a beautiful and eloquent post! I also have a problem accepting the argument that Jack was in a serious (or otherwise) relationship with Randall and was planning on leaving Ennis, at least based on the information we have.
One of the impressions I get from the John Twist scene was that Jack was prone to declarations about who he was going to bring home, build a cabin, etc. Clearly this is something he'd previously stated about Ennis (without Ennis knowing) so it's not a huge leap to assume that it was the same with Randall (also without his knowledge).
So, imagine for a moment that there wasn't a relationship with Randall at all, and what we see in the bench-scene is actually Jack, and the audience, getting the wrong idea. Consider that Randall is just trying to make a friend, being new to town and all, and Jack's the first/only person that Randall has actually talked to (c.f. his wife). I guess where is this is all heading is that the next thing we know, Jack has been killed. So, when we consider the Jack/Randall relationship thing, it was either not much of a secret (they were seen), or there wasn't a relationship at all and Randall was somehow involved (or he tells the guys who follow and kill him). So far I’ve been on the no-relationship side of things, but the many excellent posts I've read here have ensured that I remain open minded about these things.
So back to the OP, I prefer to think that the love (and the trysts) between Ennis and Jack would have gone on forever, although regrettably without resolution. The whole Randall thing was a desperate but ultimately futile attempt to "quit" Ennis. But the irony is that it is only Jack's death that finally jolts Ennis out of his indecisiveness, where he is able to seek out Jack’s parents and to admit (at least to himself) what he once had and lost. And it is in this realization that I’d like to think that the “Jack, I swear...” line is concluded by “…it would’ve been different if you’d lived”. <sniff>
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by RobertPlant (Mon Feb 13 2006 04:20:07 )
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I have already said my opinion about the principal topic..more or less the same of your one
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/36040375?d=36052685#36052685 but as for the nature of the relationship between Randall and Jack, for me , there's no doubt:
1- the proposal of Randall is really ambiguous and made in ambiguous tone. I don't think is looking only for a friend. Jack's reaction (or no-reaction) confirms my believe.
2- Jack says to Ennis he has an affair with Randall wife..do you think it's true? I don't...I don't think he invents this story from nothing, just to talk, but I think he's saying a half truth..even because just after this he says the well-known phrase "the truth is...."(sometimes I miss you so much .." and we all start crying.) The first time I saw the film I was afraid he was going to say "the truth is..it's not the wife, but the husband".
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by chris.j.warren (Mon Feb 13 2006 04:46:05 )
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Sorry if I've repeated your previous posts (didn't catch your meaning and all), but why does Jack's lack of a reaction confirm your belief that Randall wanted to be more than friends? I just took it for a "is he asking me what I think he's asking" look. Anyway, how are supposed to conclude by this that Randall was making a proposal. Don't get me wrong, I think he was or at least we are being asked to think he was, but I'm wondering if there is more to your lack of doubt? And did you therefore have an alternative to my theory about how Jack was "found out"? Or is that too much conjecture?
Btw, it's quite late down here in the land of Oz, I'll catch any replies in the morning...
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by RobertPlant (Mon Feb 13 2006 06:41:11 )
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UPDATED Mon Feb 13 2006 10:25:25
All the various elements together give me the impression (just the impression, nothing it's sure, of course) that the two are lovers.
I saw a "what do I've to do now?" look in Jack eyes, a deep dilemma...to accept or not to accept. Consider even the attitude of Randall..his low voice, the "you know (what I mean)?" at the end
and that allusion to fishing, of course this last is a clue given by Ang Lee.
After this scene, when Jack speaks about the wife of his neighbor, for me there's no more doubt.
But, you know, at last it's not really so important for me
(that their affair is real or not), because I don't think Randall was important for Jack. Like you, I think he was never going to quit Ennis and he was never going to divorce from Lureen and start a new life at Lighting Flat. Poor Jack.
And did you therefore have an alternative to my theory about how Jack was "found out"?
Do you mean how did someone find out he was gay (often I've problem with english )?
Well, assuming the theory of murder (but I'm for the third option ...another thread) I think someone could have seen them ..moreover in their last encounter there is that premonitory line about the possibility to be shot.
Goodnight ..I live on the other side of the planet
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by carjones51 (Mon Feb 13 2006 05:30:09 )
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Yeah, when I saw the film, I also thought he was about to say, "Truth is. . . . . I'm actually seeing the rancher, not his wife." I was literally waiting for the "excitement" that would ensue. LOL :-)
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by cookieyami (Sun Feb 12 2006 13:05:55 )
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UPDATED Sun Feb 12 2006 13:12:33
Thank you diabolique-1 for bringing this up. That's a big question in my mind.
There is an interesting paragrah may shed light on how Jake think: "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
IMO, Jake had sufferred and struggled for this relationship for a long time (Remember that His wife menitoned that he drank a lot? He must be very desparate when he learned that Ennise postpone their August trip....and may be the getting bigger gap between him and Ennise). He did whatever he could to keep this relationship going on. So may be at that point, Jake decide to give up the realtionship? He knew that there was no hope for their relationship, and there is no way to have Ennise conquer his fear.
The other possibility is as lucise mentioned, Jake couldn't leave Ennise, so..he still has to stand the situation until he know how to quit Ennise?
However, I am not so sure that Jake is ready for another relationship, at least I don't get the impression from the novel (I just don't want to think that Jake will leave Ennise
).
The beauty of this movie is realism. There are so much space to interpret...to imaging. We never know the truth of how Jake die and whether he decide to move on (or even had relationship with Randle). I guess that is the reason that I am so addict to this movie.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by Belindah (Mon Feb 13 2006 03:51:45 )
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Let me know when people quit imputing to the movie what's written in the short story. Then we can have a discussion of the movie. The movie is not the story. They are very different.
Re: Intrusive thoughts about Jack and Randall **SPOILERS**
by Mart-13 (Thu Mar 30 2006 04:48:45 )
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Jack and Ennis. Randall.
For correct names of characters, look in here before you make posts:
http://akas.imdb.com/title/tt0388795Purpose of New Characters
by Lurcher-2 (Mon Feb 13 2006 09:01:17 )
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What reason is there for introducing the characters of Randall and his wife but to provide a sexual alternative for Jack, with possible consequences? We already know the Twists' marriage is a bit of a shambles, so the scene can't be there just to show how Lureen's appearance has changed
Randall's a little worldlier than Jack, and probably more experienced at sizing up men he meets and less afraid to trust his gaydar. He watches Jack interacting with both wives, is aware that Jack is watching him too, and wastes no time when they're alone in telling Jack he has access to a getaway location - even though they've just met that evening.
And, as others have pointed out, the mention of the "rancher's wife" pretty clearly points to LaShawn - and then to Randall.
Nothing is superfluous in this film; whatever Ossanna and McMurtry added to Proulx's story serves a purpose.
