TOTW 18/07: Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were proto

[injest]

Well, I have to disagree with this.  I think that these images are carefully cultivated... especially when you look at the Marlboro Man examples.  They're not only carefully dressed... they're carefully posed in certain postures.  Often with the head down, etc.  I'm sure each of these ad shots took hours and hours to groom.  And the ad campaign that went on for so long evolved and changed with the times.  And, when you look at how perfect James Dean's hair is below his hat... you know that's not natural.

And, with film, the tradition and genre of the western has a complex history visually.  I think it does a dis-service to the BBM filmmakers and to Heath as an actor to think that there was no thought given to precedents and certain traditions.

To me the interesting thing is how to think about the iconic images (like the Marlboro Man and James Dean) as deliberate acts of constructing a certain image of masculinity.  And, then to think about how Ennis's character is conceived of either fitting directly in with the conventions of those images or de-stabilizing those conventions some how.  Or how Ennis possibly uses the image of an iconic cowboy as a mask to hide behind.

Del's point was that Marlboro man imitated the way men dressed in real life out west. and that is the simple truth...whether or not BBM conciously decided to imitate Marlboro or the original that the ad people copied is open to debate. I don't see how you could differentiate between copying the original or copying the copy.

I take pics at the rodeos and at reining competitions and team pennings...places where men that wear Carharts and western hats everyday as their clothes (not costumes) and they all hold their heads and themselves very similarly to how Ennis did. They all use that brim the way Ennis did to hide expression or avoid eye contact. Yes, the Marlboro man ads are carefully staged and costumed....to look like ranchers and cowboys...

[injest]

oh and the perfect hair thing?? wear a cowboy hat everyday for six months or so and see if your hair doesn't start having just the 'right' wave here and curl there...

[LauraGigs]

I think it's kind of a strange question: the Marlboro Man and the character of Ennis were each meant to look like ranchers, so they would inevitably resemble each other, right??

EDIT: ^Sorry, I must have been in a snarky mood when I wrote that. What I meant to say is that I understand the points made here about art imitating life, and copying the original/copying the copy. In other words, when you have a common point of origin for a character (such as the American cowboy), all imitators will have certain traits in common without necessarily having influenced each other.

(I would also point out that Billy Crudup and Joaquin Phoenix were each considered for the part of Ennis, and Ledger was initially considered for the part of Jack. So I might hesitate to conclude that there was a strong physical James Dean/Ennis connection in the minds of the filmmakers, at least in the early stages.)

Anyway, it has been written that if there is any iconic cowboy imagery that directly affected the creation of Ennis' exterior, it would be this, from Richard Avedon's In the American West :

[LauraGigs]

In fact, Annie Proulx wrote a short article about this photo series in the Guardian :  http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1648674,00.html

[retropian]

This is Richard Wheatcroft. His portrait was taken by Richard Avedon in June 1981 for his series of portraits "In the American West."

Look at his expression and attire, I see Ennis.

Edit: Oop's I didn't see Lauragigs post! She beat me to it!

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Friends!

Yeah, that Avedon example is great.  I remember seeing it mentioned here and there in discussions about Ennis before.

The Marlboro Man and James Dean were, I think, meant to be starting-points in examples of how Ennis particularly, or even other elements of BBM, fit in to the genre of the western or into the long-standing tradition of western art/ photography or into the use of the cowboy as a kind of cultural icon.  Those images also, I think, were meant to be starting points for thinking about other images from cinema or other media that may have inspired certain elements of BBM.  And, again, I think the Avedon photo is a great example.

The thing I'm curious about with this question is, since BBM now stands as a really important, contemporary example of a western... how does it impact this major cinematic tradition?  I personally believe that all art is influenced by other art (even when the artist vehemently denies that any kind of previous influence exists... it's essentially inevitable that a piece of art is either conforming to or rejecting/ challenging some previous model in art... or sometimes doing both simultaneiously).

You're all definitely correct that a type of realism in looking at the dress and demeanor of real ranchers is the basis of all of these things. But sometimes this image is used in different ways. I would think that BBM in the depiction of Ennis is actually significantly more concerned with realism than something like the Marlboro Man ads, for example.  In lots of photos and art the idea of the cowboy is significantly manipulated to construct certain ideas... while still having a representation of a "real rancher" as the starting-point for the image.

And, yes, it's also definitely true that other actors were in mind for Ennis before Heath... but there's that explicit reference to James Dean in the script (I don't know when that reference would have been added to the screenplay), but someone at somepoint was consciously thinking about James Dean and even specifically James Dean in Giant in relation to BBM.

Has anyone seen Giant?  I haven't and now I'm really curious about what elements of that film might have meaning for BBM. 

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109268-ffb.jpg" border="0" />

[Brown Eyes]

An interesting image with Larry McMurtry in mind...


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109507-700.jpeg" border="0" />


And with Robert Duvall in mind...  These are from Broken Trail, which came out in 2006...

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109271-575.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109270-ad9.jpg" border="0" />

[injest]

the first question I would have to settle in my mind is "Is Brokeback Mountain a western movie?" There are none of the other things I would think of as being in a western movie. (other than horses and sheep)

the time is wrong, the action is wrong,

to me this movie is a love story not a western

[tampatalon]

the first question I would have to settle in my mind is "Is Brokeback Mountain a western movie?" There are none of the other things I would think of as being in a western movie. (other than horses and sheep)

the time is wrong, the action is wrong,

to me this movie is a love story not a western

Jess, I like to think of it as a love story with a Western flair 

TampaTalon^">

[delalluvia]

Yeah, count me in.  I don't consider BBM a 'Western'.  It's simply a love story with a rural/western setting.

Westerns are usually really basic morality tales.  One white hatted guy, one black hatted guy and the story is about their conflict.  In good Westerns, you learn things about each and the situation that has caused them to come into conflict.  Love interests and the plight of society are usually peripheral to the story.

The most recent Western I can think of is 3:10 to Yuma.  That was a Western, no more and no less.

In BBM, there is no simple good guy/bad guy story.

I saw Giant.  It's considered a classic, so one summer I watched it. 

It's a big soap opera.  A slice of life in the stories of these people lives.  I didn't find anything much deeper than that.  James Dean's character was angry bad boy made rich boy but still unhappy bad boy.