TOTW 18/07: Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were proto

[Brown Eyes]

Note the date of this film's release...one could imagine Ennis or Jack having gone to see this picture the year before their meeting.

Ride the High Country (incidentally, considered by many aficionados to be director Sam Peckinpah's masterpiece) is a melancholy, rather contemplative Western delineating the passing of an era, much as Brokeback Mountain alludes to changing economic and social circumstances. Randolph Scott and Joel McCrea were very famous and popular as old-time stars of the Western, and their double casting is widely seen as an allusion to the quiet closing of the curtain on a major genre and its influence on the wider culture. Ennis and Jack's story was unfurling when the myth of a myth was receding into history, and Brokeback Mountain could be understood as a post-Western Western, if it is approached as a Western at all.

Hey Bud!  I really like your point about BBM being a post-Western Western... and the point about Ride the High Country already being nostalgic or a signal of the end of an era.  I think you're right to note that the early '60s... 1962 for High Country and 1963 for the beginning of BBM... may be considered a very important transitional moment both in western culture and in the genre of the western film.  It would be interesting to know, if historically there are significant reasons for this focus on the early 1960s to be significant.

Here's what Proulx wrote in "Getting Movied":

That last part has been discussed a lot, the part about the urban critics' term being unfairly reductive. But the first part is interesting, showing why Proulx distinguishes so sharply between sheep herders and cowboys. Apparently she felt it important to portray them as aspirational rather than actual cowboys.

I think the notion of the "aspirational cowboy" or the "wannabe cowboy" must have been communicated to Jake Gyllenhaal pretty profoundly (either it's something he interpreted/figured out for himself... or it was actively explained to him via direction/screenplay or something)... because in that "bonus feature" interview with Jake, where he's semi in costume, he talks very eloquently about wanting to portray Jack as "trying all the time"... to portray Jack as "trying to be a good cowboy" but often falling short of perfection (in terms of aiming his gun, perfect horse riding skills, etc.). It's actually one of my favorite interviews with Jake on the topic of BBM.  Jake talks about this in relation to his own less than perfect horseriding (I think) technique and how he felt that was OK given the context of Jack.  Of course, I think the idea of Jack "trying all the time" can easily be extrapolated into his attitude towards his relationship with Ennis too... trying to get Ennis to come out of his shell... and trying to find a way for them to be closer, etc.

Ennis is different in this situation, because he is better at riding horses and better at hunting.  And, unlike Jack who quits the rodeo, Ennis remains a literal cowboy (in working with cattle... even at the end with the conversation with Junior he's still thinking about the next round up and easily refers to himself as a cowboy).  So, the level of aspiration in Ennis exists more at the level of internal conflict and identity I think.

[serious crayons]

I actually see them as both. They were both honest-to-God ranch men who subscribed to the myth of the rugged Western male.

They both worked on ranches (Jack on his parents'). But Proulx evidently draws a distinction between "rough-cut ranch hand" and "top hand," and implies that only a top hand qualifies as an authentic cowboy. She also suggests the difference when she writes, "the word 'cowboy' is often used derisively in the west by those who do ranch work."

I don't know much about cowboy work or culture, so I'm only going by what Proulx says. Whether or not she has her facts straight, it at least seems to have been her intention in writing, for whatever reason, to make their cowboy idenitity more aspirational than factual. But clearly, they both subscribed to the myth of the rugged Western male.

Interestingly, Jack seems better able to reconcile that myth with homosexuality, whereas Ennis found them absolutely mutually exclusive.

[Brown Eyes]

Note the date of this film's release...one could imagine Ennis or Jack having gone to see this picture the year before their meeting.

This is an interesting point. I think it's likely that Ennis and Jack could have been aware of both Ride the High Country and Giant.  Especially Giant and James Dean I would think in terms of widespread popular understanding. 

But,thinking within the context of the narrative for a moment... and especially thinking about the beginning...  it seems unlikely that Ennis could have afforded a movie ticket.  It seems more possible that Jack could have gone to the movies once in a while (given that he can afford multiple beers, owns a cigarette lighter, etc. we have tiny clues that he has at least a tad more money than Ennis).  And, for sure, at least it seems that both Ride the High Country and Giant are the types of films they would have liked to see... or would have been likely to choose to go see.

The topic of Ennis's poverty (somehow more so than Jack's) seems to be an important component of the aspirational status of his identity as cowboy (maybe equally to the topic of sexuality in certain ways).  If, as Katherine points out, Proulx draws a big distinction between "rough-cut ranch hand" and "top hand" then class and wealth must factor into this identity to a great degree (at least in her way of thinking).

This brings me back to one of the first impressions of Ennis... a Marlboro-man-looking "cowboy" who can't even afford to smoke one single cigarette. 

Somehow, the image of Ennis snuffing out his cigarette and carefully saving it signals immediately that something is very different about this "cowboy."



And, as another somewhat random thought... the idea of the term "cowboy" being uttered somewhat derisively reminds me of Jimbos tone when he rebukes Jack at the bar.





 

[serious crayons]

If, as Katherine points out, Proulx draws a big distinction between "rough-cut ranch hand" and "top hand" then class and wealth must factor into this identity to a great degree (at least in her way of thinking).

It seems so. "Poor" is the sixth word in the story, after the italicized prologue. And "high-school dropouts ... with no prospects" is in the second sentence.

This brings me back to one of the first impressions of Ennis... a Marlboro-man-looking "cowboy" who can't even afford to smoke one single cigarette. 

Somehow, the image of Ennis snuffing out his cigarette and carefully saving it signals immediately that something is very different about this "cowboy."

Great observation, Bud.

[Front-Ranger]

It seems so. "Poor" is the sixth word in the story, after the italicized prologue. And "high-school dropouts ... with no prospects" is in the second sentence.

and don't forget "inured to the stoic life" that's one a my favourites! No rhinestone cowboys, these!

Both Proulx and Lee, in the early character development stages, were driving home the point that Jack and Ennis were the underdogs of Wyoming society, which in itself represents the underdog of U.S. society. Jack and Ennis came from opposite parts of the state, travelling to the central part roughly where the Continental Divide is located, in a hardscrabble search for work. Ennis was an orphan whose folks kept their money in a coffeecan and drove themselves to their death. Jack's folks were in the doomed family farming industry in an area where even successful farmers earn only pennies of profit per acre, if at all. What's more, they were on the fringes of Wyo career paths, neither working in the oilfields or herding cattle.

Ironically, Jack and Ennis were closer to the real cowboys than guys who were actually called cowboys in the 1960s. Real cowboys had their heyday during only about two decades of U.S. history. They were young men, mostly unschooled, but some were universitiy students from the East who had fallen in love with that life. The students usually didn't last long because cowboying was a dirty, thankless job with low pay, long hours, much tedium especially during winter, discomfort, and a great deal of loneliness.

[Front-Ranger]

There are 24 pages of posts about a talk in Casper, Wyoming, on this subject, that included a talk by Annie Proulx!!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4224.msg338761.html#msg338761

[Front-Ranger]

From the book Cowboy by Linda Granfield:

Cowboy is actually a very old word. It has been traced to Ireland, where horsemen were called cow-boys almost 2,000 years ago. . . . During the American Revolution...the word cowboy became ugly. . . . By the mid-1800s the word had returned to its original meaning--a hired man who works with cattle and performs many of his duties on horseback.

[Brown Eyes]

There are 24 pages of posts about a talk in Casper, Wyoming, on this subject, that included a talk by Annie Proulx!!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4224.msg338761.html#msg338761

That's awesome Lee!  I'd forgotten about that thread. 

and don't forget "inured to the stoic life" that's one a my favourites! No rhinestone cowboys, these!

Both Proulx and Lee, in the early character development stages, were driving home the point that Jack and Ennis were the underdogs of Wyoming society, which in itself represents the underdog of U.S. society. Jack and Ennis came from opposite parts of the state, travelling to the central part roughly where the Continental Divide is located, in a hardscrabble search for work. Ennis was an orphan whose folks kept their money in a coffeecan and drove themselves to their death. Jack's folks were in the doomed family farming industry in an area where even successful farmers earn only pennies of profit per acre, if at all. What's more, they were on the fringes of Wyo career paths, neither working in the oilfields or herding cattle.

Ironically, Jack and Ennis were closer to the real cowboys than guys who were actually called cowboys in the 1960s. Real cowboys had their heyday during only about two decades of U.S. history. They were young men, mostly unschooled, but some were universitiy students from the East who had fallen in love with that life. The students usually didn't last long because cowboying was a dirty, thankless job with low pay, long hours, much tedium especially during winter, discomfort, and a great deal of loneliness.

Well, it's interesting just how nuanced and complex the concept of a cowboy really is.  Clearly the history of that concept or job or identity must be very complex decade to decade.  At this point I'm really interested in learning more about it in a serious way.

I'm still particularly curious about the early 1960s in terms of historical significance. 

It would be interesting to do some more thorough research on this.  I've never thought too much about western history until BBM came into my life.  And, while I've been interested in film for a long time (even in academics... I was a T.A. for two film-history courses in grad school) I've never focused much attention on the genre of the western.  So, coming up with examples... again filmic/cultural, visual role models to compare with BBM through the course of this thread is really an interesting discovery.  Meanwhile, my new copy of Giant is winging its way to me via Amazon and hopefully should be here by Saturday. I've seen both Rebel Without a Cause and East of Eden but, ironically now for the context of BBM here, never Giant (I ordered a set of all 3 movies, so that will be a fun little film festival coming up) And, now I'm growing more curious about Ride the High Country too.  So, BBM continues to expand my horizons, which is just so amazing.

Anyway... I just finished watching all the "bonus feature" interviews on the original BBM DVD and it was a really nice refresher about certain things.  The interview with Diana and Larry is just so funny... they're both just so, so serious and keep finishing each other's sentences.  And there's one place where they discuss BBM (very briefly) in terms of genre... and they said they feel BBM is "framed" by the western but, then Larry said he thinks of it as a drama/love-story more specifically.  And, then when he was talking about his reaction to reading the New Yorker story he said something like (I'm paraphrasing) "I wish I had written it... the subject's always been laying there in the west, the attraction between cowboys."

And, this is very OT, but I'd completely forgotten that in one of the interviews Jake actually refers to Ennis and Jack as "yin and yang."  I'm sure we've discussed this in the Yin and Yang thread... but somehow that had slipped my mind/ caught me somewhat by surprise when I was watching those bonus features just now.  And, then there was this lovely thing that Heath said (again something I'd sort of forgotten about)... but which echoes so much of what we always say here... that he hoped Brokeback would present more questions than answers.

[serious crayons]

For me, the quintessential Brokeback predecessor is Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Like BBM, it's a revisionist, rather than classic, Western. And the homoerotic undertones are there, if not the actual sex. I loved that movie!

And more recently, there's 3:10 to Yuma. More of a completely classic Western, almost Shakespearean. Homoeroticism even more deeply buried. But I loved that one, too.

What is it with me and Westerns involving two handsome actors? Maybe I'd better order Ride the High Country, too!

 

Another interesting thing, and this has been mentioned on this thread, is the conflation of movies about cowboys with movies about outlaws and sheriffs. Westerns, to me, are really more the latter. And yet we think of them as being about "cowboys." Not all that many Westerns are about actual "cowboys," are they? Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove comes to mind, and probably a few John Wayne ones, and ...I'm grasping here; Westerns aren't my film history forte. But often they seem to be about keeping law and order in the Wild West rather than herding cattle.

[Brown Eyes]

Another interesting thing, and this has been mentioned on this thread, is the conflation of movies about cowboys with movies about outlaws and sheriffs. Westerns, to me, are really more the latter. And yet we think of them as being about "cowboys." Not all that many Westerns are about actual "cowboys," are they? Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove comes to mind, and probably a few John Wayne ones, and ...I'm grasping here; Westerns aren't my film history forte. But often they seem to be about keeping law and order in the Wild West rather than herding cattle.

Yes, I think this is very accurate to note McMurtry as particularly being famous for the "gritty, realism" type of depiction of working cowboys and nuances of western culture in general vs. quick-draw/ high-noon/ sheriffs and outlaws types of westerns.  [They mention this briefly in one of the bonus features actually!  And, is sort of fresh in my mind at the moment.  So, this is a super perceptive comment Crayons!].  My hunch is that this is why McMurtry himself resists the genre label of "western."  And, this is where the concept of realism/ real life/ examples of real non-cinematic cowboys plays a huge role and is just as important to the construction of BBM as cinematic role models.



p.s.  I just went and found a bunch of cool images from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and wanted to post them here, but my divshare account is not cooperating tonight (it won't let me upload the pics from my computer at the moment).  So, I'll try and post them tomorrow night.