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what do you believe?

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delalluvia:

--- Quote from: forsythia12 on March 12, 2008, 07:20:18 pm ---we are talking about wo different things here.  you're saying 'sanitizing' and i'm not.....
if someone is going to teach someone else about a topic, that person needs to start at the beginnning.  the basics need to be taught first.  you don't start teaching math by teaching algebra.  you do it from the level of understanding that they already have,  based on experience, age, and maturity.  this has nothing to do with sanitizing.  i don't leave stuff out, i teach at the level of the individual, and in an appropriate way for their cognitive ability.  big difference.

--- End quote ---

While I agree with you that some things - obviously you can't explain sodomy or incest to a 6 year old and expect them to understand without a lot of questions you'd rather not deal with - need to be withheld from very young children, but there are plenty of other things about religion - good and bad - that can be discussed, even with young children.  Even a 6 year old girl can understand if told that she is not as good as the boys because as a female, because Eve ate the apple, she's the source of original sin and why terrible things happen on earth.

That's pretty easy to understand.

I could certainly understand favoritism at that age.

So it makes no sense to keep that negativity from children under the auspices that they're not old enough to understand.  They can and do and will understand some things.  Older children can certainly understand that if they don't follow the rules of their religion, very bad things will happen to them in the afterlife as punishment - only it's forever.  They get disciplined in this life when they don't follow the rules.  Again, while negative, this is something easy for them to understand.

I see no reason to sugar-coat a religion.  If children/young teens are going to make an 'informed choice' about religion, they need to know as much about it, warts and all, that they can absorb - from the very beginning - not at some vague undetermined date in the future after they've already been indoctrinated with all the 'good' stuff.

As Jess pointed out, withholding such information leads to very boring church services where the sermons repeat the same material over and over and over again ad nauseum because church leaders don't want to discuss the bad parts.  So you have generations of people who don't read their bibles, are not encouraged to read their bibles, only know the 'good parts' and have no clue what their religion is telling them but call themselves Christians/whatever and are proud of it.

The church leaders are quick to draw in children, converts, baptize left and right, completely aware that their flock has little idea of what they've signed up for, so they avoid sermons that will cause doubt and controversy.

I find that very disingenuous, but of course, religious leaders are trying to make a living with a religion and have no reason to rock the boat.

forsythia12:

--- Quote from: delalluvia on March 13, 2008, 12:00:08 am ---While I agree with you that some things - obviously you can't explain sodomy or incest to a 6 year old and expect them to understand without a lot of questions you'd rather not deal with - need to be withheld from very young children, but there are plenty of other things about religion - good and bad - that can be discussed, even with young children.  Even a 6 year old girl can understand if told that she is not as good as the boys because as a female, because Eve ate the apple, she's the source of original sin and why terrible things happen on earth.

That's pretty easy to understand.

I could certainly understand favoritism at that age.

So it makes no sense to keep that negativity from children under the auspices that they're not old enough to understand.  They can and do and will understand some things.  Older children can certainly understand that if they don't follow the rules of their religion, very bad things will happen to them in the afterlife as punishment - only it's forever.  They get disciplined in this life when they don't follow the rules.  Again, while negative, this is something easy for them to understand.

I see no reason to sugar-coat a religion.  If children/young teens are going to make an 'informed choice' about religion, they need to know as much about it, warts and all, that they can absorb - from the very beginning - not at some vague undetermined date in the future after they've already been indoctrinated with all the 'good' stuff.

As Jess pointed out, withholding such information leads to very boring church services where the sermons repeat the same material over and over and over again ad nauseum because church leaders don't want to discuss the bad parts.  So you have generations of people who don't read their bibles, are not encouraged to read their bibles, only know the 'good parts' and have no clue what their religion is telling them but call themselves Christians/whatever and are proud of it.

The church leaders are quick to draw in children, converts, baptize left and right, completely aware that their flock has little idea of what they've signed up for, so they avoid sermons that will cause doubt and controversy.

I find that very disingenuous, but of course, religious leaders are trying to make a living with a religion and have no reason to rock the boat.

[/quote

exactly my point earlier.  there is no debate between us here.  we both agree that properly informing people is important.  that's what i do with my kids...that's what i did with my ministry.
and about the church described in an earlier post, yes it is indeed a diservice to its' congregation to leave things out, good or bad, or shy away from tough, or 'controversial' topics..  i'm thankfull that the churches i've belonged to were not like that.
--- End quote ---

BlissC:

--- Quote from: optom3 on March 12, 2008, 08:20:55 pm ---
Quote from: Shakestheground on Today at 07:43:38 PM

--- Quote ---I believe the Bible is like everything else, it has good and bad in it, nothing that is com[pletely good or completely bad can survive, it has to be an alloy.

You wil find a comandment to love your neighbor in one place, and stone him in another. Do with the book what you will, but live by what is in your heart.
--- End quote ---

O.K I am going to plagiarise now.
What you say, for me makes the most sense of all.I am going to pinch the last sentence. and any time asked re religion in future,that is going to be my stock answer!!!!
Just thought I would  warn you in advance of my future theft of your words,ad verbatim.

--- End quote ---

I like that too - I think I might have to "borrow" that one as well.  ;) I think you've hit the nail on the head there Optom - it's what's in your heart that matters. Belief is a very personal thing, and I guess that even if you share the same religion with someone else, within that the precise nature of what you believe is going to be influenced by all sorts of things, whether that's what you've been "taught", your experiences, or your own interpretation of the Bible or the holy book of whichever your religion is.

Shakesthecoffecan:
Wayne and myself have spoke of starting a thread about comparing the story Brokeback Mountain to the gospels, perhaps it is time to do that. I think it would be quite enlightening.

Lets us fast forward a bit to the year 2708. We are part of a team examining the scriptures of the Brokism religion. It is a mainstream religion, practiced primarily by homosexuals who hold that the spirit must reveal itself to ever fractured segment of society to ensure salvation to all possible.

In this religion the savior is one Jack Twist. Although the only documentation of this man seems to be in a first hand account written by a woman who knew him name Proulx. She tells us of the dark days in which our people had to live in the closet and to act on ones impulses would being danger. Spirit came into the world in the form of Twist, some even say his name is contrived to twist the meaning of earlier spiritual pronouncements. He advocated leaving the closet, at any cost. He advocated a sweet life for people who would do this. He was a prophet. Prophets are almost always rejected by their disciples, and almost always end up dead. This Twist did in fact die, and in doing so he freed his people from the closet.

Together with this account are the gnostic accounts of those who did not know him but would have liked too, or even claimed to. Hundreds upon hundreds of accounts of miracles he performed, including returning from the dead to his beloved disciple. There is also the books of acts. Long, rambling accounts of the early church and its pilgrims. There was Celeste of the clear mind, The Front Ranger who felt the presence of the spirit, The Wulf, crying out in a desert of retail for deliverance. The various cults that arose in those early days like the cult of the washrag and the knights of Alberta who sought out the holy sites and relics.

Our research seems to indicate these Scriptures were edited and defined from a much larger pool by one Billy Joe Agnew, a hermit who resided at the Shady Rest Mobile Home Park in Valley, Alabama, around 675 years ago.

That is how these things start. My example is a sophomoric one, but my point is we commit to things we have to work at understanding, when it should be the other way round.

delalluvia:

--- Quote from: susiebk on March 13, 2008, 10:22:08 am ---Not to mention that mental institutions are full of people who think they are Jesus ... delusions of grandeur.  Certainly in today's jaded society Jesus and the miracles he performed would be viewed with more skepticism than they were in Biblical times.
--- End quote ---

They were viewed with skepticism back then too.  Jesus wasn't the only one around being touted as a miracle worker or savior.  They were apparently a dime a dozen.  The reason you don't read all the critical accounts of him is that the early Christian leaders made sure those works were burned.  Indeed, one writer wrote something like a 10 volume set of books cutting down Christianity left and right back in the 4th century.  We only have like 30 pages of his criticism surviving and that's because a Christian apologist quoted him in his book.

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