TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?

[Penthesilea]

Good morning BetterMostians, 


again, this topic was inspired by a post of one of our residents. Delalluvia made a passing comment about Ennis being a particularly bad father, and I thought „Was he?“

Thank you Delalluvia for the idea!

Before we start, I wanted to encourage everybody to suggest topics for this feature, particularly the somewhat newer residents. Don't be shy about it. If you have a question or a topic you want in focus for one week, PM me or Ineedcrayons. New people bring new ideas and we love to hear them! Also if there is something in the movie/story which keeps bothering you and you can't make up you mind about it – why not asking your fellow Brokies about it?

One more thing: if English is not your native language and you're insecure about how to phrase a topic, don't let this stop you from suggesting topics. Katherine and I are happy to help you with it. English is not my native language either and I'm sure my wording is sometimes far from perfect. We're not in English class here, you won't get grades for it, promise 


'nuff rambling, let's start with this weeks topic.


Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?


Some think Jack's readiness to leave his family in Texas for Ennis is a clear indicator of what a bad father he was. But was this really the case? And what about Ennis? What do you think of his paternal qualities, taking in account the given time and place? Were they average fathers? Maybe even especially loving ones? Or were they indeed particularly bad fathers?

[myprivatejack]

This is an aspect in Jack life I have hardly thought about before:the possibility of being somehow, a bad father,or at least,nor so good as he should be.-and I´m speaking about Jack,because I have never have doubts about Ennis...-.Jack  seems to care for Boby in very few aspects during the movie and more in the SS.But if he had broken his marriage,does it mean that he would not care for his child future?IMO this has nothing to do with wishing a new life with a person who is not Bobby mother...
If we do not see more affection demonstrations to his son I suppose it is because Jack family,marriage and fatherhod,are not so definitive in the story development as is the ones from Ennis;who,by the way,uses often his undeniable love for his girls as a shield to protect him against taking some kind of responsability and,much more still,taking a decision about living or not with Jack.We all know how his fears and doubts ponder sometimes fairly more than his real love for his partner,so his familiar duties are a good excuse to avoid facing reality(although in the beguinning he used to leave the girls to be with him...a kind of fatigue over the years,maybe?we could speak also about this...);I've always thought Ennis being always uses the same pattern as a way of almost self-protection :he always is pretending work,money,family,whatever is not going well.But when things get better...then he pretends to start living as he wants. But the circumstances are never enough good. That it's the 'living in a perfect future' trap, as a Brokie friend once said .And John Lennon also said once 'Life is what happens while we make other plans'; a good Ennis definition,that can be applied also to his daughters relationship somehow.
Jack seemed to be more willing to leave his family for living with Ennis;better said,he was willing to leave his family life,that´s not the same...He played the game with all his cards,because he did not have these fears or doubts,so he need not to put Bobby as an excuse for a anything;for this reason,to show him as a bad father,or not very caring father,is a result of the game.I do not  know if this makes sense for you.

[Brown Eyes]

In the film, I think an effort is made to portray both Jack and Ennis as fathers who feel a pretty significant sense of responsibility towards their kids (with Ennis being so concerned about making his child support payments and with Jack stepping in and showing concern about Bobby's tutor).  I also think an effort is made to show that they both have pride in their children and have fun playing with them (ex. Jack helping Bobby steer the tractor and Ennis generally seeming to dote on his daughters in his own way).

However, the difference is that Jack really was willing to leave Lureen and Bobby for Ennis (whereas Ennis uses his kids as a major excuse for not living with Jack).  I don't think either of these things is particularly positive or negative as far as their role as fathers.  I don't think that Jack would abandon Bobby (in terms of support, etc.), but it does demonstrate a level of distance that Jack must feel towards Bobby.  And, in a way, using his daughters as a roadblock to his own happiness is not necessarily a healthy thing in terms of Ennis's attitude.  He also really seems to want to keep his daughters at arms lengthe while they grow up... not wanting Junior to move in with him, etc.

I think in the story it's far more clear cut that Jack did not want kids and probably feels sort of saddled with Bobby.  As it is in the story, he seems to take care of Bobby and to feel some sense of pride/affection towards him.  But, if he really didn't want children... that's probably a very difficult feeling to overcome.  I don't think it makes him a "bad" father.  Some people just don't have the personality that desires parenthood in the way that some people are passionate about the role.  Ennis, by personality, just seems like a more enthusiastic parent.

[brokeplex]

Ennis showed himself to be a loving father to his girls. He attempted to provide for them within the limits of his income, and ambitions. Could he have been a more ambitious provider ( the job at the power company that he didn't bother to apply for)? yes, he could have, and possibly not broken up with Alma if he had made more money.

Jack showed himself to be a loving father in the time that he spent with Bobby. Did Jack want children? Probably not, but he did accept this responsibility within limits. Of course, there was no question that Bobby's material needs would be taken of, but I'm pretty sure that Bobby walked thru life wounded by the loss of his father. And regardless of the murder of Jack, had Jack had his way, Bobby would have lost his father earlier. Jack wanted out of the marriage, and if given the out by Lureen and LD, Jack would probably have not seen much of Bobby thru the years.

It was an impossible situation that the two men were force to be in, overall they did their best that they could under the circumstances of their lives.

[BlissC]

In the film, I think an effort is made to portray both Jack and Ennis as fathers who feel a pretty significant sense of responsibility towards their kids (with Ennis being so concerned about making his child support payments and with Jack stepping in and showing concern about Bobby's tutor).  I also think an effort is made to show that they both have pride in their children and have fun playing with them (ex. Jack helping Bobby steer the tractor and Ennis generally seeming to dote on his daughters in his own way).

I think they both did the best that they could given the circumstances. It's pretty clear in the film that they both feel a sense of responsibility to their kids, and as Amanda said, with Ennis's concern over the child support payments and Jack's concern over Bobby's tutor the film does show their concern about their kids. Both men though are torn between the need and the desire to be there for their kids and accept the responsibility of them, and their desire to be together. It's a tough situation that's never going to work, because neither are ever going to be able to choose between their kids and the love of their life - yet another tragedy of the story/film.

I do think they did the best they could though. Jack taking Bobby in the tractor does show Jack tried to make an effort with his son, and he does look like he's enjoying it. Ennis meanwhile we see playing with the girls when they're younger, but as they get older, I think he just doesn't know how to relate to and talk to his daughters. The scene where he's had the fight with Alma as she's going to work and the girls are on the swings and he mutters "You want a push or something?" I think is particularly telling. Ennis is only ever really at ease with Jack, and it's almost as though he doesn't know how to talk to his daughters. Whether that's because he's surrounded by women at home, or whether it's just because he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I don't know.

My dad was like that. When my sister and I were younger he just didn't seem to know how to talk to us and what to say (hell, I'm 35 now and he still doesn't LOL!). Whether it's because like Ennis he was in a house surrounded by women, or just that he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I'm not sure, but I suspect the latter. My nephew's 9 now, and he's just the same with my nephew - he either tries too hard or tries to joke with him when it's clear he doesn't understand the joke, and can't seem to get the line right between being strict without pouncing on every little thing he does wrong. Like I said, he was just the same with me and my sister, and it's lead to strained relationships over the years. I guess some men (and I suppose some women too, but less commonly) just don't know how to relate to kids, and I get the feeling that this was the problem with Ennis. He clearly did dote on his daughters - later in the film after the divorce when he sent Jack away, he was clearly putting his girls before Jack on that occasion because he knew he only got limited time with them, and then right at the end he's clearly concerned that Alma Jnr loves this guy she's marrying (even though he doesn't know his name, but then my dad could never remember who I was seeing when I was younger either).

Ennis showed himself to be a loving father to his girls. He attempted to provide for them within the limits of his income, and ambitions. Could he have been a more ambitious provider ( the job at the power company that he didn't bother to apply for)? yes, he could have, and possibly not broken up with Alma if he had made more money.

That, I feel's a different question - not of his ambitions, but more on a practical level. I don't think it was a question of him not caring for his family and wanting to be able to provide for them, but he knew with the ranching, as he said to Jack towards the end, that in the early days he'd just quit a job if he couldn't get time off to be able to go away with Jack, but if he'd worked for the power company, he knew it was a more responsible job, and he knew that he wouldn't have been able to take time off the same to spend with Jack. I think in that instance he was quite clearly thinking of Jack, and putting Jack first. Their meetings were necessarily infrequent anyhow, and he knew that if he'd taken a job at the power company he would have been able to see Jack even less frequently.

[Brown Eyes]

I do think they did the best they could though. Jack taking Bobby in the tractor does show Jack tried to make an effort with his son, and he does look like he's enjoying it. Ennis meanwhile we see playing with the girls when they're younger, but as they get older, I think he just doesn't know how to relate to and talk to his daughters. The scene where he's had the fight with Alma as she's going to work and the girls are on the swings and he mutters "You want a push or something?" I think is particularly telling. Ennis is only ever really at ease with Jack, and it's almost as though he doesn't know how to talk to his daughters. Whether that's because he's surrounded by women at home, or whether it's just because he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I don't know.

My dad was like that. When my sister and I were younger he just didn't seem to know how to talk to us and what to say (hell, I'm 35 now and he still doesn't LOL!). Whether it's because like Ennis he was in a house surrounded by women, or just that he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I'm not sure, but I suspect the latter. My nephew's 9 now, and he's just the same with my nephew - he either tries too hard or tries to joke with him when it's clear he doesn't understand the joke, and can't seem to get the line right between being strict without pouncing on every little thing he does wrong. Like I said, he was just the same with me and my sister, and it's lead to strained relationships over the years. I guess some men (and I suppose some women too, but less commonly) just don't know how to relate to kids, and I get the feeling that this was the problem with Ennis. He clearly did dote on his daughters - later in the film after the divorce when he sent Jack away, he was clearly putting his girls before Jack on that occasion because he knew he only got limited time with them, and then right at the end he's clearly concerned that Alma Jnr loves this guy she's marrying (even though he doesn't know his name, but then my dad could never remember who I was seeing when I was younger either).
 

Heya Bliss!

I think it's a very good point to suggest that Ennis may not know how to talk to his daughters all that comfortably at times.  And, it's been noted here and there that some of his affectionate gestures towards his daughters, he seems to actually have learned from Jack.  The example here, is when Ennis is at Thanksgiving with the girls and Alma and Monroe... when he caresses Jenny's cheek and ear, some have seen this as a very similar gesture to Jack stroking Ennis's cheek and ear following the Earl story.

In the case of Ennis turning Jack away following his divorce, however, I really do think Ennis is sort of using his daughters as an excuse for his own fears.  Yes, it's true that he had to take care of his daughters at the moment.  But, he could have asked Jack to hang around for a couple of days until the visit with his daughters was over (or any number of other possible scenarios that wouldn't have involved pretty much flat out rejecting Jack's visit).  When Ennis looks and sees that white truck and clams up, I think Jack really understands what he's up against.  His separation from Ennis wasn't all about Ennis being married.  Even now that Ennis is not married, there's still an enormous roadblock.
 

Thinking about Ennis and the traumatic Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe... there's a detail in Proulx's story that may or may not come across to a film-viewer-only.  In the aftermath of the Thanksgiving fight in the kitchen it says:

"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.  He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

That seems pretty dramatic on the part of story-Ennis.  It sounds like Proulx is suggesting that following that fight, he really didn't want to face his daughters again... at least until they were adults.

[Peter John Shields]

"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.  He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

Hi atz75 - my name is Pete,

Yes I agree with you - I thought that was a very interesting piece of the story and was probably hard to translate into the film - but I thought it was a very intuitive sentence of Annies.

After his divorce my brother basically said the same thing regarding his kids and his ex wife - and where some people might try to be a hands on influence I would say that Ennis (and my brother) are people who sit back and let their children make their own decisions when they are old enough to do so...this is something the child may not appreciate until they are much older and at the time feel that the withdrawal of one parent is a rejection of them - when in actual fact it is a caring act...

I also liked the scene of Ennis with the girls and the swing - I thought it was very cute and also was touched by how seemingly unaffected the girls were by their parents bickering - I think they were very confident in the love their parents had for them...

[myprivatejack]

I think that we all agree in that both of them loved their children and that the possibility of sharing their lives doesn't mean a real abandon of them.And I've seen as some of us agree also in that Ennis uses very often his daughters as an excuse to avoid commitment; the perfect shield to protect himself against his lover's wishes...But I keep on asking why do you think he had even left his girls to be with Jack in the first years of their relationship,and after,little by little,they began to be more and more this excuse.Would it be only for an economical question-the pension he must pay for their living-that obliged him to accept all jobs that sometimes avoided him to be with Jack?.Or maybe he was a little tired of the situation?-even if in his inner self he wished to see and to be with his lover...-.Because Jack in the confrontation scene says that before Ennis was always willing to join him,but then "he was as elusive as the Pope"...Your opinion?.

[BlissC]

Because Jack in the confrontation scene says that before Ennis was always willing to join him,but then "he was as elusive as the Pope"...Your opinion?.

That's a good point. That sorta does make you think that there was something in Ennis that changed over the years. If I remember rightly in the line just before that, Jack says, "You used to come away easy." That was presumably referring to when he was still married and when the girls were younger. I wonder what changed for Ennis?

Or maybe it's just Jack bitching, because in the heat of that argument I think they both said things they regretted. As you say, part of it could have been that as Ennis said, in the early days he'd just quit a job to see Jack if he couldn't get time off. Even back in those days he'd still have the financial responsibility of providing for his family though, just as he did in later years with child support. Would the child support payments have put more of a strain on him though than when he was married and providing for his family?

[delalluvia]

I believe Ennis was a bad father in the way that he - as the story went - took 'fishing trips' with Jack, but never brought home any fish, even though according to the movie's Alma "me and the girls love fish' and he never took them on any trips.

But he did 'buy them ice cream'.

In other words, Ennis found time for himself and his freedom to be himself was so important to him that he quit his jobs when he was younger so he could be with Jack being away from his family for sometimes a week at a time, maybe once or twice a year, regardless of his family's needs.

In the meantime never taking his family on any trips.

Alma and the children hardly have any social life at all as a family.  Alma can suggest, but Ennis has to agree to an outing for it to happen and they're always local, one day events.  Nothing like a camping trip on the mountains for a week.

Ennis loves his girls, but when his job calls or Jack comes up, he's quick to dump them on Alma and is gone.  He loves them at his convenience.

This changes after the divorce, but as was pointed out, by the time Junior is 19, he has no clue what she is doing with her life, meaning, he's not seeing his girls regular even when he can.

When he and Alma had the fight, right in front of the girls who were on the swingset, he's pretty much telling the girls he can't be bothered to serve them dinner!!

And I disagree with Pete where he said:

I also liked the scene of Ennis with the girls and the swing - I thought it was very cute and also was touched by how seemingly unaffected the girls were by their parents bickering - I think they were very confident in the love their parents had for them.

I thought the girls were very affected by their parents bickering.  I was one of those children once.  The girls don't turn their father down with a sunny smile when he asks "Y'all need a push or sumptin'?"  They had been watching the fight, stopping their swinging, then when he turns his attention back to them, they quickly turn away - trying to get out of the line of fire and out from under his attention, lest they get the force of his displeasure aimed at them and say 'No."

In the story it says he used the fight to not see his girls until they were old enough to get out from under Alma's radar.  This sounded like an excuse, IMO.  He wasn't willing to risk further confrontations and decided to - again  - dump his girls when his needs were most important.   His girls were not going to understand his reasoning.  As far as they were concerned, he abandoned them.  They wouldn't even have his side of the story, a different opinion from their mother's.  Yes, sometimes later in life they appreciate it.  Sometimes.  Other times, they don't care to have anything to do with a father who was more concerned with his own life than theirs.

And finally, Ennis' attitude towards his marriage and Alma didn't help his image as a good father.  Again, he was wayward, used to taking off on his own whenever it suited him, leaving Alma to pick up his slack.  The children also saw this.  Can you blame Junior for taking more of a shine to her father than her mother?  Her mother is a drudge.  Her father gets to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, is independent, takes vacations where he wants to go and lets someone else do the work.  I'd want to have my father's life instead of my mother's too, if I were her.

So basically, I think Ennis was a bad father.  I think Jack was better in several respects, but since my comment was originally aimed at Ennis, I'll just stick with him.