Author Topic: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll  (Read 3109111 times)

Offline Lumière

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1590 on: July 16, 2006, 09:57:19 pm »
Hello QuipLash ..

Welcome!  :)

I love your Photoshop art!  I like to do abit of that myself! 
Hope you pull up a chair, get comfy and have some icecream with us!  ;)


Offline neatfreak

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1591 on: July 16, 2006, 10:08:04 pm »
Welcome, Quiplash! We're glad you're here. Have some sprinkles with that ice cream.

Offline neatfreak

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1592 on: July 16, 2006, 10:11:43 pm »
You've gotta understand, I like nude beaches...

In Maine?! That would explain your "frame of mind." Shrinkage!

Offline David

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1593 on: July 16, 2006, 10:12:17 pm »
Hey Quiplash!
 
    You and I are on the Flickr BBM pages as well!    Welcome to BetterMost!

I have some of your artwork scattered about the site here too!   It has been VERY well received!    

 :)   David    aka: DavidinHartford

Offline David

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1594 on: July 16, 2006, 10:14:20 pm »
In Maine?! That would explain your "frame of mind." Shrinkage!

Tell me about it!    I remember being 13 yrs old and running into the water at York Beach!!!     BRRRRR!!!!      I was hitting all the high notes in the choir that year!

Offline Lumière

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1595 on: July 16, 2006, 10:17:06 pm »

    You and I are on the Flickr BBM pages as well!    Welcome to BetterMost!

Is Flickr a photo management site? like Photobucket?


Offline judyh

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1596 on: July 16, 2006, 10:28:59 pm »
In response to MaineWriter's request for more thoughts on Ennis, here is a quote from a lovely post over on davecullen.com.
"My grandmother lost her husband to cancer when they were both quite young. She has not so much as looked
at another man in decades. They do exist, people who just keep living, always standing a quiet vigil over the
dead. She still smiles, comes to family picnics, but we all see the empty space next to her, and we know that even
though we long ago healed frmo losing our grandfather, she will never heal from losing the love of her life. For
me, knowing Ennis is in that place helps me move on. Because even if I forget, there is someone who never
will, who never can, who always leaves a little room next to themselves at the picnic table." planetgal471

And here is what I think, and posted, in response.

Yes, we all do know people who serve as constant reminders of a dead loved one, like an extra place
always laid at the table, "an empty space next to her," as planetgal471 puts it so well. I don't think Ennis can
be one of those people. It's possible that he will never move on, and some readers expect him to never move
on based on his behavior in the original novella, but I don't think he can be a public reminder. His efforts to
keep the relationship secret prevent that. In his world, nobody looks at Ennis and sees an empty space next to
him where Jack should be. If he began talking about the relationship in public, perhaps became a speaker on the
circuit advocating gay rights, people would begin to see that empty space next to him. But if Ennis could reveal
the relationship to strangers or even talk about it within his family circle, the whole tragedy need not have
happened. Only Alma knows the truth in the novella and in the movie, and in the fanfics that show Ennis
gradually loosening his tongue a bit, it's still pretty hard to manage more than a few sentences to Alma and one
daughter.

As Ennis notes sadly in a conversation with new boyfriend Ellery, Ennis was just a fishing buddy, not a
person with the legal or social standing to demand a etter investigation into Jack's death, to ask for a
complete explanation of the circumstances, and to press for the arrest of the perpetrator(s) if it was an attack
rather than an accident. Because he was not recognized as a "significant other" he didn't even receive the news
of Jack's death until long after the event, when the trail was going cold.

Given the circumstances at the time, Ennis chose to keep the relationship a secret and forfeited his chance to
be a public reminder of the empty space next to him. In the world of the novella and the movie, only he can see
that empty space.
Ennis is in the position of many people who had secret relationships or had relationships that are not recognized
as meaningful in the larger society. Those people don't get the ashes, they don't get the flag that was draped
over the coffin, sometimes they can't even express their grief in public because the relationship was so hidden or
was the sort of relationship that is viewed as not important, not deeply meaningful. Not being able to talk
about it, either for fear of discovery or for fear that listeners will deny the importance of the connection, is
an additional stress borne by the person who survives.

I wonder if some of the readers who object to Ennis moving on are objecting because they feel that he owes
it to Jack to stay put. Maybe he should atone for the injustices done to Jack by himself and by society by
remaining celibate for the rest of his life, by being that public reminder of the person who is no longer there, like
Coretta Scott King or planetgal471's grandmother. But that won't work in this situation.

So maybe readers think that Ennis's own tendency toward self-punishment would cause him to reject any
ideas of finding another partner. Ennis may feel that he betrayed Jack once by refusing to try for the more full-
time relationship that Jack wanted, and any thoughts of finding another partner would be an additional betrayal,
unthinkable after all the pain caused for both him and Jack by the first betrayal.

I think the most popular reason for not moving on is the idea that Ennis feels Jack was really his one and only, no
one else would ever be what Jack was, perhaps no one else would ever be attractive to Ennis, in the line of
thinking where Ennis was queer for Jack but not for anyone else. Any other ideas that I might have left out
for why he wouldn't change?

I think Ennis does demonstrate the capacity for change, a very small capacity before Jack's death in that he
agrees to resurrect the affair, and a somewhat larger capacity after the shock of Jack's death. As mentioned in
a recent post, Ennis decides that attending Junior's wedding is worth the risk of getting fired for asking for
time off from work at a busy time of year. He visits Jack's parents to inquire about spreading the ashes on
Brokeback Mountain and takes the two shirts, both of which actions run the risk of revealing his secret. As it
turns out, Jack's parents suspected or knew all along, so he only confirms the connection for them. But he
had no way of knowing that ahead of time, and he stands his ground under the hostile gaze and disdainful
words of Jack's father. Whether those changes indicate that, under the continuing pressure of his grief, Ennis
can develop additional capacity for change, capacity sufficient to allow the changes that occur in Louise's
series, is an open question. As I've said before, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief just a smidgen in return
for the pleasure of reading an entertaining series of stories that explores a lot of themes with strong
emotional appeal for me.

Henry James wrote in The Art of Fiction, "We must grant the artist his subject, his idea, his donne' : our criticsm
is applied only to what he makes of it." Maybe it's not a question of "must" but a question of "can choose to." I
understand the objection of some critics that a piece advertised as "canon" doesn't leave room for granting
the artist his subject. The artist is constrained by the canon work of art. I wonder if the objections would stop
if Louise were to say that her stories are not strictly canon. I'm not at all suggesting that she should do that.
I'm just wondering if that would stop the objections. I think the discussion invited by MaineWriter is
meaningful, and here's hoping there will be a few more comments.

Judy
“Ain’t no police goin’ ta’ come write you a ticket you whisper something sweet in my ear, Ennis. Something nasty neither. And I ain’t tellin’, not even you tomorrow.”  --  'Dreaming' by Cathalin

Offline Quiplash

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1597 on: July 16, 2006, 10:36:06 pm »
Is Flickr a photo management site? like Photobucket?
Flickr is a social networking services based on photographs.  There are an astounding number of amazing photos in any and every subject area (all photos can be tagged with one or more keywords to make searching easier).

Here's the Brokeback Mountain group on Flickr.
--Quiplash.  See all my PhotoShopped Brokeback Mountain fanart creations here


Offline Lumière

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1598 on: July 16, 2006, 10:40:47 pm »
Flickr is a social networking services based on photographs.  There are an astounding number of amazing photos in any and every subject area (all photos can be tagged with one or more keywords to make searching easier).

Here's the Brokeback Mountain group on Flickr.

Cheers QL!
I am gonna check out that link..maybe I'll join!  ;)


Offline ranchgal

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #1599 on: July 16, 2006, 11:05:08 pm »
How 'bout this for Ellery's ice cream:

Ellery:  Cherry Garcia (Soooo sweet) or Chocolate Peanut Butter (Rich and delectable to the tongue) or Pralines & Cream (Sweet, nutty and uh, creamy)

YES, and when I think of someone as smooth as Ellery, caramel comes to mind, so his just has to have that ribbon of carmel in it for Me! Rich,, and  Sweet creamy, nutty and smooth LOL