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Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
dly64:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 28, 2006, 05:15:37 pm ---Why does Ennis, who is so paranoid of being found out, expose his and Jack’s relationship to Jack’s parents? By going to the Twist ranch Ennis should have realized that he was going to give the Twists something to think about, hell they might possibly even make the connection that Ennis was queer as was their son! Ennis must have wondered about whether Jack’s parents knew or did not know that their son was queer.
We already know that Jack was very private and did not spread personal information about the two of them, so presumably Ennis knew that Jack was discreet in that way. So instead of going to the Twists', why did he not write them a letter instead, or make his offer in a telephone call, about taking the ashes up to Brokeback, I mean.
This thread is dedicated to Katherine!
--- End quote ---
IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay. What he did know, however, was that he loved Jack. It was important for him to get Jack's ashes and scatter them on BBM. The short story says, after Jack's dad refuses to let the ashes go:
"Bumping down the washboard road Ennis passed the country cemetary fenced with sagging sheep wire, a tiny fenced square on the welling prairie, a few graves with plastic flowers, and didn't want to know that Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain."
BBM symbolized freedom for Ennis and Jack. Freedom from prying eyes, freedom to be themselves without fear ... the feeling they were "invisible". The romantic in me thinks that Ennis wanted to scatter Jack's ashes on BBM so that when Ennis died he, too, would have his ashes scattered on BBM and they could finally be together forever.
I think both Twists knew Jack was gay. I also believe Jack's mother knew about the shirts. That is why she invited him to go up to Jack's room. (OT - at the lake scene before their row - Jack says he's going up to Lightning flat to see his folks for a couple of days. My feeling is he didn't go to visit his parents. He went to be close to something that belonged to Ennis).
I like how Roger Ebert describes this scene:
A closing scene involving a visit by Ennis to Jack's parents is heartbreaking in what is said, and not said, about their world. A look around Jack's childhood bedroom suggests what he overcame to make room for his feelings.
(Bear with me folks ... I am the queen of quotes.)
welliwont:
--- Quote from: dly64 on June 29, 2006, 09:59:54 pm ---IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay.
--- End quote ---
If I had a nickel for ever' one who said that... ::)
I am on the fence on a lot of these matters, I LOVE Jake I mean Jack and Ennis, *sigh*. Right now I am just getting to know Ennis and Ellery, and I just started reading their story two nights ago. I'm not sure how many of you posters here know that story, but I think it is wildly popular, over 30 pages of posts in 2-3 days about it?!! Last night I cried more over that story (chapters 39 and 40) than I have cried over any other Brokeback moment in the past three months including the movie, the first time I watched it... It was over Jack and Ennis that I was shedding tears, it had nothing to do with this Ellery dude BTW. Anyhow that is OT for this thread, just wanted to share that in case any of you want to read more about Jack and Ennis, and Ennis coming to terms with losing Jack, etc.
Ok, what I started to write here is: often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay. Well I have just one question: Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"
In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right: "....get the feeling that people know? ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?" It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay. That is how I interpret Ennis' words here. How do you?
Jane
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on June 29, 2006, 06:04:43 pm ---But I don't think Ennis had any thought of "coming out" to the Twists; - I very much doubt he even considered the risk of being "outed". (But even if he did, he wouldn't have let that stop him.) I don't think he would have expected the Twists to have heard about him except perhaps as some casual "hunting buddy", so their level of knowledge about him must have come as a surprise. I think he hoped they'd just see his offer as a bona fide condolence visit and offer of help, nothing more.
But once he's there, he realizes that they do know - and yet, the heavens don't come crashing down. As the quote above says, he doesn't care. He discovers that horrible as it is, he can actually stand this. In the behaviour of Mr. Twist he meets the contempt of the world that he's always expected to meet, if the truth became known. But he finds that is not as horrible as he's always feared it would be; - there are worse things. And he also unexpectedly meets an outstretched hand - acceptance, compassion, respect.
Ennis receives two posthumous and very precious gifts from Jack at Lightning Flat, that both go a long way towards putting Ennis's deepest fears to rest and giving him some measure of inner peace: The shirts, proving to Ennis that Jack loved him all along until his death, when Ennis feared he didn't. And the Twists's behaviour towards Ennis, prompted by the knowledge that Jack had deposited with his parents, proving to Ennis in practice that he is able to stand being known as a queer, that he may actually survive people *knowing* about him, that he may well meet understanding, not only disgust.
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I agree with all of this. Once again, Mikaela, beautifully put. To clarify my earlier post, I didn't mean to suggest that Ennis went to the Twists with the express purpose of coming out. I meant he undertook the risk of coming out in order to do right by Jack. You're right, it's possible it didn't occur to him that they would know enough to "know" -- though back in his white-pickup-eyeing days, he probably would have worried about even the faint possibility that they'd figure it out.
In any case, the important thing is he quickly realizes they do know, and yet the world doesn't fall apart on either side. He remains calm, forgetting his fear and shame in order to focus on his grief. As for the Twists, they -- like everyone else in the movie who knows -- don't do anything harmful except, in Old Man Twist's case, be rude. But that's more than outweighed by Mrs. Twist's kindness and sympathy.
dly64:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 30, 2006, 12:59:45 am ---... often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay. Well I have just one question: Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"
In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right: "....get the feeling that people know? ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?" It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay. That is how I interpret Ennis' words here. How do you?
Jane
--- End quote ---
IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together). Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation). Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.
welliwont:
--- Quote from: dly64 on June 30, 2006, 12:52:29 pm ---IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together). Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation). Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.
--- End quote ---
Well I don't really agree with that interpretation, but probably other people will. ;D For some reason people do not follow my translations very often. But however, I persist.... a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?" He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc. He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town. Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?
Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely? I think Oscam's Razer fits here. I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them. That is not a far-fetched assumption.
And if Alma could figure it out? Well she was his wife for twelve years, so Ennis must know that Alma could read him pretty well by then. Just like he could read her voice at Thanksgiving by the kitchen sink, he know she had something powerful on her mind, or on her tongue to get out. (I'm paraphrasing.)
Anyway I posted that post of mine here and on another thread, I think you are on the other thread as well. In fact you wrote a detailed analysis of the fight scence point by point, and I have done the same, but I don't know where mine is! ;) I'll try to put my hands on it for you! Basically we are both posing the same questions Diane!
Jane
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