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Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
David:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 30, 2006, 12:59:45 am --- "....get the feeling that people know? ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?"
--- End quote ---
I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does. He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.
Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?" he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man. Something Ennis failed at with Alma.
His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.
It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point. Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least? As long as he could keep Jack his secret.
That is why the lake scene fight is so important. Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful. Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too. That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more". Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.
This is Ennis's "coming out". When confronted with Jacks departure, he admits he wants more. Thats is why we need Cassie in the movie. We get to see him break it off with her.
Ennis's biggest fear was people finding out and them getting killed. So now he knows that if he loses Jack, that will be just as bad. Then of course, before their next meeting Jack dies.
I don't think Ennis outed himself in Lightning Flat. He was just fulfilling a buddys last wish.
If anything, Jacks parents "outed" Ennis! But Ennis handled it well. The past Ennis would have gotten red faced angry and stormed out of there! You see his nostrils flare when the stud duck mentions Randall. But Jacks Mom saves the moment with her remark to go up to Jacks room. She wants him to find the shirts. Trust me, if she didn't know those shirts were there, she'd have made a statement when she saw Ennis walk in the room with them.
But she recognized them. That is why she smiled and grabbed a bag. Ennis left Happy, more or less.
So that wasn't a coming out. It was more like the Twists new the secret. Nothing more.
Ennis of course just retreats to his trailer both physically and emotionally.
silkncense:
--- Quote ---It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point. Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least? As long as he could keep Jack his secret.
That is why the lake scene fight is so important. Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful. Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.
--- End quote ---
David -
I love you! This is exactly how I saw the film. The night before, Jack & Ennis were just two (fishing) buddies talking about affairs they were having w/ women. And then Jack confesses to Ennis that "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Ennis simply let the statement pass - he still could not admit the same thing. Didn't know how to handle it any better than in the motel scene.
But, when he fears he is loosing Jack the next morning, his body betrays him. The truth takes over & he collapses. This was not an instant where he voluntarily knelt to the ground to cry - he was totally out of control physically. This is the point, IMO, where Ennis truly realized that he not only loved Jack (as a best friend, as a sexual partner) but that he was IN LOVE with Jack & could not bear to loose him.
Kd5000:
Do you think Mr. Twist's mention of Jack's talk of bringing up another man and how he was going to leave his wife was a jab at Ennis or was Mr. Twist just being matter of fact??
Obviouly, Ennis is clearly hurt, a feeling of possible betrayal. The last thing he needed to hear about was another man. Of course, Mrs Twist lets her husband do the talking and I'm sure Ennis was glad to hear that Jack had mentioned him to his parent.
-----------------------------
Regarding Mrs. Twist,
I just thought the way Jack's mom expressed to Ennis "you are welcome to go to his room..." was spoken by her in a most serious and almost painful manner was particularly touching. She didn't ask or confront Ennis about the nature of his relationship with her son, but her tone of voice was most respectful.
Afterall, she practically kept the room almost as a shrine to her son's boyhood (she had not clearned it out, donated his clothes to a charity, etc) and by giving permission for Ennis to go there, it was validation, from her point of view, of what was between Ennis and Jack.
I think it was the only validation or social approval that Ennis will ever from his "world" of the relationship he had with Jack had. Hence, it did make his trip worthwhile, getting the shirts and getting some sort of support from Jack's mom. And I do agree, Ennis at this point is so grief stricken, he doesn't realize how transparent he is, so to speak.
dly64:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on July 01, 2006, 03:06:55 am ---.... a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?" He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc. He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town. Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?
Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely? I think Oscam's Razer fits here. I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them. That is not a far-fetched assumption.
--- End quote ---
I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out". It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".
--- Quote from: DavidinHartford on July 01, 2006, 06:54:12 am ---
I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does. He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.
Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?" he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man. Something Ennis failed at with Alma.
His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.
It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point. Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least? As long as he could keep Jack his secret.
That is why the lake scene fight is so important. Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful. Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too. That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more". Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.
--- End quote ---
Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal" ... does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.
The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.
On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)
The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.
welliwont:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 01, 2006, 06:29:35 pm ---I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out". It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".
Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal" ... does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.
The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.
On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)
The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.
--- End quote ---
Well this is just great!! I have been working on a big long reply / question about all of this to DavidnHartford, pages and pages, couldn't even keep my eyes open for gettin' just 3 to 4 hours sleep a night this week 'cause a BetterMost, had to break to sleep for a coupla hours, and I come back to the sheep, and Diane you have posted this, and now my post don't hardly make any sense a'tall!! humph! :( ::) :);D
Oh well Diane, I cannot address all of your points, so I'll say this just once:
--- Quote ---it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay
--- End quote ---
(yes Diane, I can understand that.... I don't think we are ever gonna see eye to eye on this, but for what it's worth:)
It's one thing for Ennis to be paranoid that strangers know, and a completely different issue for Ennis to admit (to himself) to being gay.
Ok, I see that there is logic in that, BUT now I'm putting myself in Ennis' position, "I am paranoid that the strangers on the street think I am gay. I do not admit to myself that I am gay."
So how can Ennis overlook all them things that he and Jack do together, which I will call gay sex acts??!! I guess I would call it being in denial, and deluding himself, if he cannot realize that the stuff he and Jack do makes him a queer!! aaaaaaaaarrrrghhhhhhhhhhh!!!
Ah Diane, I think I am going round and round the mulberry bush with this movie, I used to think I would be able to understand and explain the movie, both the characters, all the ambiguities, to wrap it all up in a nice little package to myself, "there! this is what this means, this is what the movie is all about...." Ironically I was asking this identical question 2.5 months ago on IMDb when I first saw the movie. I guess I haven't come much further than that.
J
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