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Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2

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Katie77:
I agree with you too, that Mr Twist, was probaby not homophobic....or was it just that he was too nieve to realize when jack said he was bringing Ennis or Randall to the ranch to help out, that he didnt realize that there was anything untoward about that.

Either way, it does show something, and I wonder if Ennis realized it....that if he had come out with Jack to the ranch, there was not going to be any repurcussions or objections to it, at least not from MR and Mrs Twist.

Maybe old man Twist, knew, but would never have said it out loud..

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: dly64 on July 10, 2006, 09:27:42 pm --- He never met Lureen. He never met his son.
--- End quote ---

(You mean grandson, right?) Do we know that (could be, though I don't remember hearing that)? And if so, is it necessarily all OMT's fault? The Twists are old and, like Ennis, may lack a reliable car. Jack could also have brought the family up to Lightning Flat, couldn't he?

But actually, I don't really want to defend Mr. Twist. For one thing, I've already got my hands full, constantly defending Ennis  :laugh: And for another, I think that the more of an SOB he is, the better the movie works. He can be the world's biggest SOB, in fact, as long as he's not also a homophobe. I'm not insisting on his lack of homophobia because I don't want you to hate him as much. I think you should hate him all you like but also notice his lack of homophobia.

I think what the filmmakers are trying to show with the Lightning Flat scenes is Ennis finding out how much he blew it. In two ways: 1) he underestimated or mishandled his relationship with Jack, which he realizes when he hears about Jack's idea that never came to pass -- Jack took it seriously enough to mention it to his parents -- and then especially when he finds the shirts. And 2) he learns that getting outed is not as disastrous as he'd always assumed it would be. He learns that from Mrs. Twist, because she is compassionate. But he learns it even better from Mr. Twist, ironically because he is not the least bit compassionate. Quite the opposite, yet the homosexuality part of the equation is not a big problem. Maybe the sweet life was more feasible than Ennis believed.

That message wouldn't be conveyed by different scenarios. If Mr. Twist were homophobic and mean, it would only confirm our expectations. The film sets us up to assume that because he ran Jack off, etc. And Ennis may have assumed the same, because all mean dads are homophobes, right? So Ennis wouldn't learn anything upon meeting him, nor would we.

If Mr. Twist were unhomophobic and nice, like Mrs. Twist, it would be reassuring for Ennis. Not everybody hates him. But he still wouldn't learn much -- nice people might actually be homophobic but politely hide it or, if they're really really nice, maybe they aren't homophobic, but only because they're so nice.

But if Mr. Twist is an obnoxious jerk and yet STILL isn't homophobic, that really says something. OMT has no reason to hide his homophobia from Ennis. He's spiteful, so if homophobia were an issue, you can bet he'd drag that one out, too. But he doesn't. So Ennis learns that, contrary to what he has believed since childhood, not all fathers or men or role models or people hate homosexuals as much as he assumes they do. Wow! That's a much more interesting and dramatic scene, especially because it counters our own expectations -- wait a minute, aren't all 60s-era cantankerous rural geezers also homophobes? Once again, we're required to look beyond our preconceptions.

So the more you hate Mr. Twist, the more effective the scene is.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think the film is trying to say that actually the world is a friendly happy place where homophobia only exists in people's imaginations -- the Earl story counters that. It's only this particular person who does not appear to be homophobic. However, that's in keeping with the rest of the movie. Nobody who "knows" about Jack and Ennis reacts very strongly: Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma stays quiet for years. The damage of societal homophobia is inflicted mostly on Ennis' mind and, well, soul. But that is not to say the damage is imaginary or negligible -- on the contrary, it is real and devastating and life-wrecking.

I agree with much of what Ruthlessly said about this issue. Incuding:


--- Quote ---OMT is very stoic, very quiet, he listens to what Ennis says. ...There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.
--- End quote ---

This is what I see, too. I disagree with your contention, Diane, that he didn't care about his son. So hey, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all.

Or, no, wait ... he has to be!

dly64:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 11, 2006, 02:38:14 am ---(You mean grandson, right?) Do we know that (could be, though I don't remember hearing that)? And if so, is it necessarily all OMT's fault? The Twists are old and, like Ennis, may lack a reliable car. Jack could also have brought the family up to Lightning Flat, couldn't he?
--- End quote ---

Whoops! I meant grandson … it was one of those things where I knew what I meant, but didn’t translate it correctly. C’est la vie!!

Okay … you are correct that it was not expressed in the film regarding never meeting Jack’s family. (That’s one of those things that I transferred from the story to the film). And, yes, Jack could have driven Lureen and Bobby up. It’s maybe one of those circumstances whereby Jack really didn’t want to deal with his bastard of a father. (Can you tell that I really find OMT despicable?)


--- Quote ---I think what the filmmakers are trying to show with the Lightning Flat scenes is Ennis finding out how much he blew it. In two ways: 1) he underestimated or mishandled his relationship with Jack, which he realizes when he hears about Jack's idea that never came to pass -- Jack took it seriously enough to mention it to his parents -- and then especially when he finds the shirts. And 2) he learns that getting outed is not as disastrous as he'd always assumed it would be. He learns that from Mrs. Twist, because she is compassionate. But he learns it even better from Mr. Twist, ironically because he is not the least bit compassionate. Quite the opposite, yet the homosexuality part of the equation is not a big problem. Maybe the sweet life was more feasible than Ennis believed.
--- End quote ---

I certainly agree with your first point. As for your second point … are you saying that Mr. Twist is nonchalant about his son being gay? That he is impassive? I am not sure about that … I keep vacillating. I guess, for today, I can see your logic.


--- Quote ---So the more you hate Mr. Twist, the more effective the scene is.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think the film is trying to say that actually the world is a friendly happy place where homophobia only exists in people's imaginations -- the Earl story counters that. It's only this particular person who does not appear to be homophobic. However, that's in keeping with the rest of the movie. Nobody who "knows" about Jack and Ennis reacts very strongly: Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma stays quiet for years. The damage of societal homophobia is inflicted mostly on Ennis' mind and, well, soul. But that is not to say the damage is imaginary or negligible -- on the contrary, it is real and devastating and life-wrecking.
--- End quote ---

If you are saying that Ennis realizes that he would not have (necessarily) been killed for loving a man … I can agree with that. I understand that you are also focusing on one person and not society as a whole. As for others “not reacting strongly” …. to me it is not what they do. It is what they say and what they convey in their tone of voice. It’s disdain. Look at racial hatred.  Not everyone would kill a person of another race (although it happens). However, that doesn’t prevent them from despising the individual and causing irreparable harm to his/her psyche. Although I can agree that much of the damage perpetrated on to Ennis is from Ennis himself,   it does not preclude the fact that, especially in that time and place, he would have been hated, despised, and a target. (What I mean as a “target” – certainly discrimination and possibly the target of a hate crime).

It is at this moment I am going to share with (all of) you one thing that colors my perception. I have shared this before in another thread, but I don’t know that any of you are aware of this:
I had a great uncle who was gay. He lived in a rural Midwestern town. He did what society expected of him. He got married and had children (albeit 12 years apart).  He was caught having sex with a man and was arrested. Of course all of this was extremely painful for everyone. Oh yes … one more thing …. he was murdered. Apparently everyone knew who did it, but no one was arrested. Why? Because it eliminated this parasite from their midst.

I am telling you this not to evoke sympathy, but to express the toll on everyone that rural homophobia causes. I don’t think any of us disagree with this statement. Where I think we differ … even if someone is not outwardly homophobic, it does not eliminate the seething contempt perpetrated on the gay individual. This is how I see OMT. Granted, he probably would not have killed Ennis or his son. That is not to say, however, that he wouldn’t work hard to demean them and to destroy them emotionally. OMT is all about CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. (YIKES! I am coming on really strong here, but that is what I think).


--- Quote ---I disagree with your contention, Diane, that he didn't care about his son. So hey, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all.

Or, no, wait ... he has to be!
--- End quote ---

I see what you are saying … but it comes down to this …  IMO, Mr. Twist is not keeping the ashes because he longs to have Jack in the family plot. On the contrary. He is doing it because he knows this is not what Jack wanted. Back to the whole issue of control. I may have been too strong in saying that OMT didn’t care about his son (at all). But his motivations are not out of love for Jack. He is not being a bastard to Ennis because he blames Ennis for allowing Jack to die. He is being an old SOB because that is what he is.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: dly64 on July 11, 2006, 09:41:59 am ---It’s maybe one of those circumstances whereby Jack really didn’t want to deal with his bastard of a father.
--- End quote ---

So his father is a bastard because he never met his grandson, which he couldn't do because his son never introduced them, which he didn't do because his father is a bastard?  ;) No, I know what you mean. And as I said, I definitely am not vying for a a position on the OMT Defense League. (The EDM Defense League is already a full-time job.)


--- Quote ---As for your second point … are you saying that Mr. Twist is nonchalant about his son being gay? That he is impassive? I am not sure about that … I keep vacillating. I guess, for today, I can see your logic.
--- End quote ---

It would seem so. Of if he harbors homophobia in his heart of hearts, we're not shown it. The important thing is the filmmakers very pointedly did not present him as a homophobe, and their objective was not to elicit sympathy for the old man but to make a dramatic point.


--- Quote ---As for others “not reacting strongly” …. to me it is not what they do. It is what they say and what they convey in their tone of voice. It’s disdain.
--- End quote ---

Sure. But the point is that the worst reaction -- in this particular story, excluding Earl -- happens in Ennis' mind. Besides, Ennis is used to facing disdainful tones in other circumstances. Look how disdainful Aguirre was, even before he knew of their sexual activities. In Ennis' mind, the repercussions of people "knowing" would be much more huge and unbearable than garden-variety disdain. On Thanksgiving, if Alma had accused him -- in the same disdainful tone -- of being a bad provider, he would have been pissed off. But I don't think he would have threatened violence, stormed out of the house and got himself beaten up. If Aguirre, instead of saying "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good," had said something about their sexual activities, Ennis would not have just stood there impassively, he would have freaked out. He could live with being called incompetent. But he was raised to believe that homosexuality was not in any way remotely acceptable, that it was the worst possible thing, that the consequences of being associated with the word were unspeakable.


--- Quote ---However, that doesn’t prevent them from despising the individual and causing irreparable harm to his/her psyche.
--- End quote ---

Exactly!!!!! That's exactly the point the film is making about societal homophobia -- that it causes irreparable harm to an individual's psyche.


--- Quote --- Although I can agree that much of the damage perpetrated on to Ennis is from Ennis himself,
--- End quote ---

But really I'm not saying that. I'm saying that actually the damage to Ennis was perpetrated by society, or maybe that the damage perpetrated by society causes Ennis to perpetrate damage on himself. In other words, I'm not letting society off the hook, and I don't think Ennis' problems came out of nowhere.


--- Quote ---it does not preclude the fact that, especially in that time and place, he would have been hated, despised, and a target. (What I mean as a “target” – certainly discrimination and possibly the target of a hate crime).
--- End quote ---

Sure. The Earl story certainly proves that. I'm just saying it's interesting that the filmmakers chose not to focus on the external expression of homophobia (discrimination, hate crimes). In fact, Earl aside, those are conspicuously absent. Aguirre watches Jack and Ennis through the binoculars. Then we see him riding up to Jack and think "Uh-oh, now the shit's going to hit the fan!" (Ha ha ha: shit, fan -- get it?!) But in fact, it doesn't. Aguirre doesn't mention what he saw. He doesn't fire them or yell at them. In fact, he's not even all that rude, at least by his standards. Why not? (Though he does decline to rehire Jack the following year, so discrimination isn't entirely absent.)

BTW, understand that I'm not saying, oh, they never show any hate crimes except for that trivial little subplot involving Earl. The horrifying shadow of Earl's fate looms over the whole story. I'm just saying that, having said it once, the film figures we get the message and doesn't need to say it again and again.


--- Quote ---I had a great uncle who was gay. He lived in a rural Midwestern town. He did what society expected of him. He got married and had children (albeit 12 years apart).  He was caught having sex with a man and was arrested. Of course all of this was extremely painful for everyone. Oh yes … one more thing …. he was murdered. Apparently everyone knew who did it, but no one was arrested.
--- End quote ---

Diane, I saw this on the other thread. I know you aren't saying it to get sympathy, but I AM really sorry, it's a horrifying story. And please please don't interpret my remarks here to indicate that I think stuff like that never happens. That's not what I mean at all.


--- Quote ---Where I think we differ … even if someone is not outwardly homophobic, it does not eliminate the seething contempt perpetrated on the gay individual.
--- End quote ---

I don't think we differ on this.


--- Quote ---This is how I see OMT. Granted, he probably would not have killed Ennis or his son. That is not to say, however, that he wouldn’t work hard to demean them and to destroy them emotionally. OMT is all about CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL.
--- End quote ---

We certainly agree that OMT is an SOB. Yet the film goes out of its way to suggest that OMT knows about Jack, shows him acting contemptuously, even hatefully, yet strangely enough does not show him saying anything homophobic.


--- Quote --- IMO, Mr. Twist is not keeping the ashes because he longs to have Jack in the family plot. On the contrary. He is doing it because he knows this is not what Jack wanted. Back to the whole issue of control. I may have been too strong in saying that OMT didn’t care about his son (at all). But his motivations are not out of love for Jack. He is not being a bastard to Ennis because he blames Ennis for allowing Jack to die. He is being an old SOB because that is what he is.
--- End quote ---

I'm not sure what I think about why he keeps the ashes, or whether he blames Ennis. Ruthlessly's interpretation is interesting and in some ways appealing, but, hmm ... I'm still unsure about OMT's motivations. I don't think he doesn't care about his son at all. But in any case, IMO, that's not the main point.

The main point is that, in the case of OMT, asshole does not equal homophobe. Maybe it usually does. Maybe all other embittered and vindictive old bastards in rural 1980s Wyoming are homophobes. But this one isn't, or at least we see no evidence that he is. The filmmakers want us to set aside our preconceptions -- in effect, to disregard our own prejudices.

They're doing it to make a point, but the point isn't that OMT is actually a nicer guy than he seems, nor that homophobia isn't a problem in rural Wyoming, nor that gay people are never targets of prejudice or hate crimes. On the contrary, we've seen evidence of all those things. The point is that society's homophobia not only causes all that sort of objective damage, but it also wreaks subjective damage, that it injures people's hearts and psyches and souls -- and, in the case of Ennis, wrecks his life.

Mikaela:
I must say that this recent discussion and the posts from all of you here has been very illuminating. Not only has the point about Twist Sr. and his lack of (apparent) homophobia, contrary to all expectations, been aired and examined from many angles. But also I have come to realize that though I thought this was completely clear to me,  I am now entirely uncertain exactly why Twist Sr. behaves the way he does and why he is such a nasty Son of a Bitch. In reading the various posts I agree with bits and pieces, but I don't see anything that makes me exclaim: YES, that's it!

I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself - something in his behaviour towards his son can be interpreted that way. In seeing the film portrayal, I was reminded of what Annie Proulx writes in her essay "getting movied" about the elderly ranch hand she saw in 1997 watching younger men playing pool - the man that inspired the thoughts that culminated in the BBM short story. The man she wondered whether could be "country gay". She describes  "something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing" - and I am thinking that perhaps what Twist Sr. is displaying in the film is what happens when even that longing is gone and only the bitterness (and envy) remains...... It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.


Another thing I was going to ask everyone is what you think Ennis gets from the conversation with Lureen, apart from the painful confirmation of Jack's death.

He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered? Wouldn't he then fear that she might have guessed that the fishing/hunting buddy got up to more than just fishing with Jack? Might he realize during the conversation or when thinking back on it later on in life that she managed to connect the dots when he told her he was the one who was together with Jack on Brokeback, his "favourite place"? What would he then make of the fact that nevertheless, she told him of Jack's last wish and suggested that he be the one to fulfill that wish. Would he see some sort of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and even compassion in all of this? I know I do - I really want to cheer Lureen on as she puts down that receiver. She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

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