Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay

Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2

<< < (8/9) > >>

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 06:29:58 pm ---In reading the various posts I agree with bits and pieces, but I don't see anything that makes me exclaim: YES, that's it!
--- End quote ---

As it should be!  We each have our take and we help to illuminate.  There are no definite answers.  (But we’re certainly entitled to hold our own answers near and dear.)  Besides, for my part, even if I state “Here’s what’s going on this scene…” (for example, the Twist family scene is about OMT blaming Ennis), I still leave a lot of room for a lot of other things to be going on at the same time.  I very seldom intend for my (very strongly stated and direct) opinions to reflect a finality.



--- Quote ---I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself … It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.
--- End quote ---

No, it’s not a far stretch.  It reflects very good observation and examination of the film.  If it works for you in your understanding, I say, “You go girl!”  -- I share your view, by the way.



--- Quote ---She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?
--- End quote ---

Very good questions and deserving of a lot of inquiry and discussion.  All I can say at this time, though, is I disagree with the part of your paragraph that I quoted above.  I see it as entirely reasonable to think that Lureen figured out that Ennis was Jack’s lover.  However, because of her last comment, about the ashes, I mean, I tend to believe that what Lureen figured out during this phone call was that Jack’s favorite place was not with her and that Jack had someone else in his life who was more important to Jack than she was.  This doesn’t have to have anything to do with her figuring out it was a gay relationship.  And I think she wouldn’t have been so “kind” in her last comment, about the ashes, I mean, had she really figured out that piece of the puzzle.  Alma let it sit and stew inside her for many years.  I don’t see Lureen as doing that.  I think she would have come right out with it.  Then, she would have actually said “humping buddy” as some people have thought she said.

I see Lureen in this scene as a very believable and reasonable recently-made widow, keeping it all in the character of Lureen that had been developed thus far.  But looking at just Lureen, this scene deals her a very painful blow in her realization that **she** and **their home** were not Jack’s favorites.

dly64:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 11, 2006, 11:29:24 am ---I'm just saying it's interesting that the filmmakers chose not to focus on the external expression of homophobia (discrimination, hate crimes). In fact, Earl aside, those are conspicuously absent. Aguirre watches Jack and Ennis through the binoculars. Then we see him riding up to Jack and think "Uh-oh, now the shit's going to hit the fan!" (Ha ha ha: shit, fan -- get it?!) But in fact, it doesn't. Aguirre doesn't mention what he saw. He doesn't fire them or yell at them. In fact, he's not even all that rude, at least by his standards. Why not? (Though he does decline to rehire Jack the following year, so discrimination isn't entirely absent.)
--- End quote ---

I see your point here. (I like your “shot hitting the fan” pun. Good one!!)


--- Quote ---I'm not sure what I think about why he keeps the ashes, or whether he blames Ennis. Ruthlessly's interpretation is interesting and in some ways appealing, but, hmm ... I'm still unsure about OMT's motivations. I don't think he doesn't care about his son at all. But in any case, IMO, that's not the main point.

The main point is that, in the case of OMT, asshole does not equal homophobe. Maybe it usually does. Maybe all other embittered and vindictive old bastards in rural 1980s Wyoming are homophobes. But this one isn't, or at least we see no evidence that he is. The filmmakers want us to set aside our preconceptions -- in effect, to disregard our own prejudices.
--- End quote ---

You are correct on this. I am completely aware that my disdain  towards OMT distorts my view. I really can’t stand the man, so it is hard for me to acknowledge anything that is even remotely positive. Putting that aside, however, I can see your point.


--- Quote ---They're doing it to make a point, but the point isn't that OMT is actually a nicer guy than he seems, nor that homophobia isn't a problem in rural Wyoming, nor that gay people are never targets of prejudice or hate crimes. On the contrary, we've seen evidence of all those things. The point is that society's homophobia not only causes all that sort of objective damage, but it also wreaks subjective damage, that it injures people's hearts and psyches and souls -- and, in the case of Ennis, wrecks his life.
--- End quote ---

Now this, my friend, I agree with 100%.



[/quote]
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 06:29:58 pm ---I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself - something in his behaviour towards his son can be interpreted that way. In seeing the film portrayal, I was reminded of what Annie Proulx writes in her essay "getting movied" about the elderly ranch hand she saw in 1997 watching younger men playing pool - the man that inspired the thoughts that culminated in the BBM short story. The man she wondered whether could be "country gay". She describes  "something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing" - and I am thinking that perhaps what Twist Sr. is displaying in the film is what happens when even that longing is gone and only the bitterness (and envy) remains...... It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.
--- End quote ---

What cracks me up is that I threw this idea out previously … I think somewhere in this thread. Although I was being somewhat sarcastic (which is a common reaction for me), there actually may be some merit to the idea. Obviously we will never know for sure. I just find it interesting that some of OMT’s bitter reaction towards Ennis and Jack could  be that he had wished for a love like that himself. Think about two things that mirror Jack:
1.   He has only one child … a son
2.   He is not particularly loving to his wife (in fact, rather cold … which Jack has become that way. At the benefit, Jack pretty much sticks it to Lureen when he asks LaShawn to dance. Jack also makes it clear, by the time of lake scene, that there isn’t anything there between the two of them).
Now, I could also list a plethora of things that distinguish OMT and Jack. I just think it is an interesting concept to pursue!


--- Quote ---Another thing I was going to ask everyone is what you think Ennis gets from the conversation with Lureen, apart from the painful confirmation of Jack's death.

He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered? Wouldn't he then fear that she might have guessed that the fishing/hunting buddy got up to more than just fishing with Jack? Might he realize during the conversation or when thinking back on it later on in life that she managed to connect the dots when he told her he was the one who was together with Jack on Brokeback, his "favourite place"? What would he then make of the fact that nevertheless, she told him of Jack's last wish and suggested that he be the one to fulfill that wish. Would he see some sort of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and even compassion in all of this? I know I do - I really want to cheer Lureen on as she puts down that receiver. She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?
--- End quote ---

There are a lot of great ideas in all you are saying. So as not to give a complete dissertation (which I have been known to do), I will try to focus on a few points rather than all of them.

From Ennis’ POV, I don’t know that he sees Lureen as deliberately lying (even though we could start a whole new thread debating if Lureen was, in reality, telling the truth). It is interesting to surmise what Ennis is thinking on the telephone (in regards to what Lureen knew or didn’t know) because he cannot see her facial expressions like we can. IMO, it becomes obvious to us, the audience, that she puts two and two together and realizes that Ennis is the love of Jack’s life. But does Ennis realize this? The only time he might get an inkling is when she says … “I suppose they’d appreciate if his wishes were carried out … about the ashes, I mean.”  I agree that she is very decent, despite the fact that her suspicions are realized in a matter of a minute. By the same token, although we see pain cross her face, she shuts herself off from her feelings. On the end of the line she sounds accommodating, but cold.

There are a few people that Ennis comes across who have deduced his sexual orientation: Aguirre (but Ennis is not aware of this), Alma, Lureen, OMT, Mrs. Twist, and (IMO) Alma, Jr. Some reactions have been compassionate, some disdainful, some bitter, but none violent. This doesn’t detract from Ennis’ frame of reference … that being gay is something to be despised and hidden. Although he knows by the end of the film that he loves Jack and only Jack, he cannot help but to keep all of those feelings “in the closet” (so to speak). Does he realize that he wouldn’t have been killed if he would have loved Jack openly? I can’t say. He has been given some opportunities to experience various reactions from others … none of which lead to murder. I do think he has many regrets. One being that, had he to do over again, he would have made room in his (open) life for Jack.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 06:29:58 pm ---He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered?
--- End quote ---

I don't know the answer to either. But re the first one, I don't think at that moment it matters to him whether she's lying or misinformed -- he's too focused on his grief for Jack. Re the second one, again I think he's so focused on his grief he's sort of oblivious to the fact that Lureen gets it.

And I do think she gets it. I think she has realized gradually over the years that Jack is gay. The ever-blonder hair, the increasing hardness and bitterness, the focus on work, the "husbands never want to dance with their wives," the husband who can't imagine why wives would spruce up just to go to bed, the phoned-in marriage. And of course if Jack was murdered and she knows it, that would be confirmation.

So she picks up the receiver knowing that Jack was gay, maybe knowing about Randall, but not about Ennis. But during the course of the call, she figures everything out. Even when she says, "you're the fishin buddy, the huntin buddy, I know that" it may have been dawning on her. Her voice doesn't give anything away, but the "I know that" immediately following the buddy stuff carries a slight hint of it, it's a slightly odd way to put it. But her little squeaks and the tears in her eyes after "we was herdin sheep up on Brokeback" and "we was good friends" show her putting it together for sure.

What is she putting together? Well, she already knows Jack is gay, so it's not a huge leap for her to realize Jack wasn't going up there to fish. But his ashes request and "it was his favorite place," along with what Ennis tells her about the summer of '63, also make her realize that Jack loved Ennis -- had loved him since before they were married, in fact.
 
So yeah, under those circumstances, telling Ennis to get in touch with Jacks' folks was a really, really nice thing for her to do. (That's why I always leap to the defense of Lureen, along with Ennis and now, I guess, Old Man Twist. People are so unfair to her!) And when she says "if his wishes was carried out ... about the ashes I mean" she's suggesting, for whatever mysterious reason of her own, that she knows in contrast to the ashes his wishes in life wasn't carried out.


--- Quote ---In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?
--- End quote ---

Yes, but only in retrospect, because again he is too grief-stricken to pay much attention at the moment.

Brown Eyes:
BUMP!!
 :D

Brown Eyes:
bumping the good old questionnaires again!
 :D

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page