Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
Jack's questionnaire
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 12, 2006, 02:18:00 pm ---
Agreed. But, as to the instant decision, I've always wondered what conversation took place after the breakdown and before Ennis drove off.
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My second post and yours just overlapped. I tried to answer this question in my second post.
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--- Quote ---I can't picture Jack coming in November just to call it quits.
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Agreed.
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Then I misunderstood you in a previous post. I thought you were sure that it was definately over from Jack's side (if he hadn't died).
Bottom line is: I think they would have managed it, if Jack hadn't died.
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on July 12, 2006, 02:22:42 pm ---The fact Jack mentiones Randall to his parents proves us he thought about moving on shortly after their argument. In a state of mind still angry and freshly hurt. But how serious he was about this "other fella" bringing with him, we'll never know for sure. I think he wasn't very serious about it, because we know Jack had told his parents for years about Ennis Del Mar, and he sure was serious about being together with Ennis. But however he seems not to have spoken with Ennis about concrete plans regarding Lightning Flat.
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I agree that by the time Ennis drove away Jack had not said anything to Ennis. That would have to come later (and never did).
As far as telling the folks about the other guy… I have to disagree. I take your statement “we know Jack had told his parents for years” as very informative here. For years he told his folks about bringing up Ennis del Mar. Ennis was named to his folks (as opposed to “the other guy”). I believe that for Jack – presumably only a few days after the final lake scene -- to actually say to his folks that it’s now not going to be Ennis del Mar, but another guy, would have taken MUCH more than anger and fresh hurt – at least the amount of anger we see at the end of the final lake scene. Sure, Jack could have said something like that in the heat of the moment, but a few days later is no longer in the heat of the moment. To actually tell his folks that he’s changing his plan after all these years would take either an extremely resentful and irrepressible anger, or a determination. I can’t see the former as being present. I can see the latter.
--- Quote ---And like others have already said, I see development in Ennis: dumping Cassie, the pie scene, his lokk after Cassie mentions the word love, the fact that he admits he can't stand it any more. Plus he was terrified and shaken to the core by the cognition that there's a possibility of losing Jack. He had a lot of things to think after their last trip. He was almost there, almost finished his travelling around the coffeepot, almost found the handle.
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No doubt! But, all of his developing was taking place while/after Jack went to his folks. And, ultimately, too late.
It’s interesting that you bring up Ennis’ development. It makes me think, what about Jack’s? I think the entire night conversation portion of the final lake scene is not about Jack trying to get Ennis to figure out that Ennis is gay; rather, I believe it’s about Jack coming to this final rendezvous already in a frame of mind to decide whether they must end the relationship. He has another offer on the table (Randall). He asks about Ennis never marrying again – partly to point out that Ennis is gay, but also to get information for himself. Same with his “admission.” Then the next day he “weighs” Ennis with the camera pan from his right to left. Then all of the other stuff said there. It all adds up to a development in Jack – to decide to end the relationship. But I also believe he didn’t make a concrete decision by morning, and, if he made the decision during the argument, Ennis’ breakdown put the kibosh on actually bringing it up on this trip. If during this final tryst, Jack WAS working on making a decision, it was for Jack. However, after seeing the breakdown, the decision would have been made for Ennis. ("Goddamn you, Ennis.") Food for thought.
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on July 12, 2006, 02:29:28 pm ---Then I misunderstood you in a previous post. I thought you were sure that it was definately over from Jack's side (if he hadn't died).
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Yeah, I wrote poorly there. I think it’s fair to say that that implication probably came out of what I wrote.
--- Quote ---Bottom line is: I think they would have managed it, if Jack hadn't died.
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A lot of people do. By “managed” do you mean “nothing changed, business as usual,” or that Ennis finally made a decision to live with Jack? I have a hard time with the former because of Ennis’ breakdown and Jack’s love combined. I have a problem with the latter because it would be (has been) such a, to me, insurmountable hurdle for Ennis.
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 12, 2006, 03:43:47 pm ---Food for thought.
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Yep. So no answer on this right now, it's late for me.
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 12, 2006, 03:59:33 pm ---A lot of people do. By “managed” do you mean “nothing changed, business as usual,” or that Ennis finally made a decision to live with Jack? I have a hard time with the former because of Ennis’ breakdown and Jack’s love combined. I have a problem with the latter because it would be (has been) such a, to me, insurmountable hurdle for Ennis.
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No, I don't mean "managed" as for business like usual (camping trips). Maybe for a little while longer. The girls being grown up would mean two things for Ennis: no more child support and letting go his girls on some level. All parents come to a point where they have to let go their children. This may be hard, but it has a good side on it, too. The parents are then free again to take responsibility only for their own life, not any longer for their children's. For exapmle free to move to another place, without their children; just as as the children might do themselves. And I think the girls are really that important to Ennis, not only an excuse. Not the most important reason why he keeps saying no to Jack (that would be his homophobia) but sure the second important reason.
I mean "manage it" in the sense of Ennis coming around to make commitments. Maybe not the one big commitment Jack is waiting for so long in just one step. But maybe at first some baby-steps: going with Jack to Lighning Flat just for some days, just to do Jack the favour. Maybe opening to the possibility for a trip south. Maybe moving closer to Texas, maybe a second, third... and longer trip to LF, maybe whatever....
I'm aware that this is not what Jack really wants. But things like these could be a beginning. I'm sure Jack would be stunned and pleased by any of those steps. And for a beginning this would have been not bad, hunh?
And in the end, yes I can see Ennis and Jack living together.
Hm, my last paragraph sounds like fanfiction. But you asked, and I answered. So you shut up about me being helpless romantic, it's all your fault ;)
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on July 12, 2006, 04:50:28 pm ---Me: Food for thought. You: Yep. So no answer on this right now, it's late for me.
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I've been thinking about this A LOT more and discussing it with someone else. It may become a topic of its own. It has a lot of strong implications.
--- Quote ---No, I don't mean "managed" as for business like usual ... I mean "manage it" in the sense of Ennis coming around to make commitments.
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OK.
Thinking about this, I can go with all you said about Ennis making baby steps. And while it has a ring of fan fiction to it, it also rings true with what I see as a possibility (had Jack not ... well, you know).
But then you also talked about Ennis' girls and a parent moving on. This got me thinking. Ennis' excuse invoking the girls is certainly about child support (he said so) and about being there for them (he said so) -- at least as long as they're "growing up." But, could it also be about not being a gay daddy? If Ennis were to have lived with Jack, would it not REQUIRE coming out to his girls? Even if he wouldn’t tell them he's gay, they'd have to figure it out if he lived with his fishin' buddy. Plus, Alma Sr. would have her say in the matter. Even if Ennis would make all the baby steps, could he / would he allow his daughters to see him as a gay man? I'm not sure Ennis could go there. Unless of course they'd figure it out anyway and they'd lead him (as Jack led Ennis). Talk about fan fiction!
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