getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)

[nakymaton]

That is one really big difference between the movie and the story. Movie Ennis seems to be much more repressed and different than Jack. The movie is a compare-and-contrast between Jack and Ennis, much more of a romantic he-said-she-said type of story. The story is more subtle and more of a meeting-of-the-minds between Ennis and Jack. The couple, in the story are against a harsh and disapproving world; in the movie, they are often against each other.

Yeah, and Katherine has said something similar, a lot of times. I see differences in the characters in the story, but boy, are they really emphasized in the movie. And not just from the ways the characters are portrayed, either -- there's the whole visual element, too. That opening sequences where Ennis and Jack exchange glances -- they're already being set up as opposites that attract one another, from the casting choices (Heath's fair hair vs Jake's dark hair) to the hat and clothing colors.

Jessi:

Ennis seemed to run full throttle in the first sex scene.  In the movie i feel it was a complete surprise.  I didn't see any kind of attraction dance between them.

Well, I think it's there, but it's subtle and easy to disagree about. But I was talking about within the sex scene itself -- how there's this long moment (well, longer if you watch the scene in slow motion ) after Ennis and Jack jump up, and before they start having sex. They stare at each other, Jack reaches for Ennis's face, Jack weaves back and forth while taking off his jacket -- that's the part I was describing as a "dance." It's not that long, and really doesn't seem very long the first time you watch the movie, but somehow, after repeated watchings, it seems to take a lot longer. (Or maybe that's just the effect of using slow motion on the the DVD. )

[Front-Ranger]

Another way Ennis runs "full throttle" is when he jumps in to be the herder when Jack seems in danger of slacking at it. In fact, in the story, he went off the first night carrying breakfast and coffee in a jar to save a trip back in the morning, something that must have been a disappointment to Jack. 

[serious crayons]

Another line that strikes me as odd: “He had no serious hard feelings, just a vague sense of getting shortchanged, and showed it was all right by taking Thanksgiving dinner with Alma and her grocer and the kids...”

Ennis felt shortchanged?

And by his divorce?? 

[moremojo]

And by his divorce?? 

"...just a vague sense of getting shortchanged,..." (emphasis added); sure, I can see Ennis feeling this way, quite possibly by the divorce alone. It's less certain in the story, but in the film I have no doubt that Ennis does love Alma--he's just not in love with her. We see him letting a tear fall during the divorce scene; one imagines he's feeling disappointment, and possibly shame for not having lived up to his, and to his society's, expectations of him as a man.

[Front-Ranger]

I had a different read on that line, somehow. I thought he felt shortchanged because of his beloved children being taken away from him, pure and simple. I got the feeling that he was always clueless to Alma's feelings and Alma's needs. Sure I agree he loved Alma but more as a boy loves his mother, more looking to her to support him etc. Part of the reason I interpret it this way is because the word shortchanged is so close to the reference to his daughters. He thought of them in the same way he thought of his horses, as we all know.

[Penthesilea]

My take on Ennis vague sense on getting shortchanged is also in regard to his daughters, but secondly in regard to money-issues.
He had to pay a lot of child support,  ("how it's being broke all the time" he tells Jack [much]later). Alma was better off money-wise than Ennis. She married the Riverton grocer and they may not have been rich, but sure not near being broke at any time.

Doorbell is ringin. Gotta go

[Front-Ranger]

Good point! I forgot about the literal meaning of shortchanged!!

[dly64]

I don't know that Ennis' feeling shortchanged had anything to do with his daughters or Alma. The story really has Ennis less involved with his girls than does the film. IMO, it is Ennis' virility, his masculinity that has been "shortchanged". Ennis associated his masculinity in his ability to impregnate Alma (a visual sign of his virility).  For example:

"In December Ennis married Alma Beers and had her pregnant by mid-January."

And then Alma emasculates Ennis ....

"Alma asked Ennis to use rubbers because she dreaded another pregnancy. He said no to that, said he would be happy to leave her alone if she didn't want any more kids. Under her breath she said, ‘I’d have ‘em if you’d support ‘em.’"

In a conversation with Jack, Ennis says that he “used a want a boy for a kid … but just got little girls.”

Then there’s the whole Thanksgiving fiasco. In this situation, it as if Ennis has been castrated. He is sitting in his ex-wife’s house while Alma is pregnant. These are two things that emasculate Ennis …. his inability to support his family and Alma impregnated by another man.

[serious crayons]

All of the above make sense. But I'll have to say I find it hard to see Ennis as this macho man who feels threatened by whether his wife is impregnated or not.

In the scene where he says he'd be happy to leave her alone if she doesn't want no more of his kids, I read it as, "Thank god! Here's an excuse to get out of this." And in the conversation with Jack about sons vs. daughters, well, that's story vs. movie, but still I don't see that as necessarily a sign of machismo (I used to want a girl for a kid -- maybe because I am a girl -- but just got little boys, yet I'm really not THAT much of a girly-girl, and by the time they were born I was perfectly fine with it). In the Thanksgiving fiasco, I don't see Ennis as being castrated so much as going along just to be nice to his kids (not to be the "sad dad"). I see no sign that he is bothered by either his inability to support his family or Alma being impregnated by another man. He could have done either if he'd wanted to (taken the job at the electric company, had sex with Alma), but it appeared to me he didn't want to.

Here I am, as usual,  dilligently defending Ennis. But really, that's really just how I see the movie!

[Penthesilea]

All of the above make sense. But I'll have to say I find it hard to see Ennis as this macho man who feels threatened by whether his wife is impregnated or not.

In the scene where he says he'd be happy to leave her alone if she doesn't want no more of his kids, I read it as, "Thank god! Here's an excuse to get out of this." And in the conversation with Jack about sons vs. daughters, well, that's story vs. movie, but still I don't see that as necessarily a sign of machismo (I used to want a girl for a kid -- maybe because I am a girl -- but just got little boys, yet I'm really not THAT much of a girly-girl, and by the time they were born I was perfectly fine with it). In the Thanksgiving fiasco, I don't see Ennis as being castrated so much as going along just to be nice to his kids (not to be the "sad dad"). I see no sign that he is bothered by either his inability to support his family or Alma being impregnated by another man. He could have done either if he'd wanted to (taken the job at the electric company, had sex with Alma), but it appeared to me he didn't want to.

Here I am, as usual,  dilligently defending Ennis. But really, that's really just how I see the movie!

One more time, I'm with you here, Katherine 

In the scene where Ennis says he'd be happy to leave her alone, I think it's both. In that very moment, he is clearly not pleased by Alma's comment, his response is gruff (but Ennis being gruff is not *that* unusual anyway  ).  And no wonder: who wouldn't be angry at such comment from Alma?

But I also think, he was more relieved. I don't think Ennis ever tried to make sex with  Alma again after this. In the movie, I think that this is implied by the fact that the very next scene is in the courtroom and we witness the divorce. Isn't there even a overcutting for a split-second with these two scenes?

And in the story are also clues regarding their sex life after this scene (and we're discussing the story here - yay, that means I'm on topic again ).

"...his propensitiy to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed..."


In general, I don't see Ennis as macho and feeleing threatened in his masculinity by Alma. And the story supports this. If Ennis had been feeling castrated and emasculated by Alma, there sure would have been a lot more of fighting. But the story says:

"A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma, no real trouble, just widening water."

"...and when Alma Jr. was nine and Francine seven she said, what am I doing hangin around with him, divorced Ennis and married the Riverton grocer."

Now the circle closes to the sentence this discussion has begun with:

"He had no serious hard feelings...

...and he showed it was all right by taking Thanksgiving dinner with Alma and her grocer and the kids..."