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Christian Domestic Discipline
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on August 27, 2014, 10:06:45 am ---OK, possible partial mea culpa -- I just googled "white people more babies" and found this right away:
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Your search skills are better than mine--or maybe I should say your search imagination? I might have puzzled and puzzled till my puzzler was sore and not thought to google that phrase.
--- Quote ---http://newobserveronline.com/if-white-americans-dont-start-having-babies-now-the-us-will-vanish-by-2100/
It's the "the US Will Vanish," of course, that makes it racist. As if the US would not exist as an entity if it weren't majority white. That's not a book, but it looks like a pretty established, well-financed, professionally produced site. And of course there are plenty of other far more sleazy-looking sites where people express similar sentiments.
There are also a few stories from liberal sites accusing conservative commentators on Fox News or wherever of saying racist things about birthrates.
So I guess it's not entirely far-fetched that some conservative book might mention this issue in a racist way. Though I'm still skeptical about the existence of a whole book entirely on that topic. You'd think it would have raised more of a fuss. If stray stupid comments by Paula Dean or a football-team owner could rule the news cycle for a week or more ...
Meanwhile, there are other neutral sites and stories reporting projected demographic shifts in the population due to declining birthrates among white people. And a few conservatives in mainstream publications (e.g., Ross Douthat in the NYT) expressing alarm about declining birthrates overall and urging people in general to produce more babies -- for the sake of the economy, not the racial balance. I don't count either of those as racist.
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Of course it isn't racist if it's urging people in general to have more babies.
--- Quote from: serious crayons on August 27, 2014, 09:43:56 am ---So let me make sure I understand. You're saying you have heard of writers in the 1990s or later writing actual books published by legitimate publishers -- as opposed to some tract they printed off in their basement and passed around at their neo-Nazi gatherings -- that openly urged white people to have more babies to combat the rising population of non-white babies.
Well, I guess I'd have to see titles. Or names of authors. Or reviews. Or something. Otherwise, frankly, I'm skeptical.
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No, that wasn't what I was saying. That's far too specific. All I'll allocate to is vague memories of reading or hearing something, some controversy, within the last two decades about some conservative writing something about the need for white people to have more babies.
--- Quote ---I don't claim to be an expert on the Full Quiver philosophy, but as far as I know it doesn't have anything to do with the overall population's racial balance. And -- they're conservative Christians, right? -- many conservative Christians are non-racist.
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No doubt the last is true, especially those who are not white, but I wonder how many non-white people go to church with the Duggers (sp?)?
--- Quote ---Stick with whatever you like. :) Personally, I like to base my beliefs on actual evidence. Vaguely imagining that that a person is "ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races" just because they don't explicitly mention race at all does not count as evidence in my book.
I don't usually explicitly mention race when I'm writing about something that has nothing to do with race, but that doesn't mean I'm directing my words only at white people.
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Well, then, can you please explain to me why something urging specifically white people to have more babies doesn't have something to do with race?
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: milomorris on August 27, 2014, 11:48:55 am ---Encouraging people of one's own race is not a de facto discouragement of people of other races.
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Not as long as you're not encouraging them to breed more babies so they don't get overwhelmed by people of other races.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 27, 2014, 11:54:36 am ---No, that wasn't what I was saying. That's far too specific. All I'll allocate to is vague memories of reading or hearing something, some controversy, within the last two decades about some conservative writing something about the need for white people to have more babies.
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Um, OK ... Well, I certainly can't argue that nobody in the past 20 years has expressed that idea in print or aloud, especially since I just posted an example of it. So if that's all you're claiming at this point, then you're absolutely right.
However, back in 2011 your argument was that any white person who writes a book urging people to have more children is dog-whistling white people to have more children to counteract the rising non-white population. That's what I was disagreeing with, especially because I had read (and reviewed!) one of the books we were discussing and can vouch that it wasn't racially targeted. At all.
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 23, 2011, 04:02:20 pm ---Scratch these white authors advocating that whites should have lots more children deeply enough and you'll find a racist afraid of the white population being "overwhelmed" by the nonwhite population. They used to be more open about that before racism became socially unacceptable in mainstream circles.
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Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on August 27, 2014, 02:33:37 pm ---However, back in 2011 your argument was that any white person who writes a book urging people to have more children is dog-whistling white people to have more children to counteract the rising non-white population. That's what I was disagreeing with, especially because I had read (and reviewed!) one of the books we were discussing and can vouch that it wasn't racially targeted. At all.
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"Dog-whistling"? Hmm. Well, I can hear it! :laugh:
I see no reason to alter my opinon from three years ago, so I guess we've probably stopping point on this one?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler link=topic=49404.msg661407#msg661407 date=1409166996 ---"Dog-whistling"? Hmm. Well, I can hear it! :laugh:
I see no reason to alter my opinon from three years ago, so I guess we've probably stopping point on this one?
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Sure. I guess if you're not inclined to alter your opinion despite being admittedly underinformed on the issue, being unable to recall any specific incidents and having been presented with evidence to the contrary, you have every right to stick to your story! Many, many people do the same thing all the time. :)
I still am curious, though, why if you accuse people like Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids author Bryan Caplan (economics professor at George Mason University, blogger for EconLog, writer for the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal etc., author of an earlier book called "the best political book of the year" by the New York Times) -- if you accuse him of being an undercover white supremacist, then why you don't do the same for NYT columnist Ross Douthat, who is also white and has also argued in favor of the general public increasing their procreation rates, primarily (he claimed!) for economic reasons.
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