Vincent, this is just great! We agree on most everything.
1. During the opening scenes, where Kay and Marc are jogging around the track w/ the pack, Kay is leading with Marc following. This is a theme throughout the film Kay also pulls away from Marc who gives up...on the challenge - harbingers.
Exactly how I see it, too. Marc is following Kay’s lead from the first moment.
2. During the pool scene, after Kay pots out a bit, he dares Marc to get into the pool.. and when Marc leaps in, he immediately engages in a few rounds of horse play. Afterwards, Marc exits the pool and attempts to get Kay to follow, he refuses so again, Kay is strongly independent and not willing to be told what to do.
Agree. And Kay has gotten Marc to do 2 things that he didn’t really want to do at first, because he is used to following the rules: smoke pot and get in the pool after hours. Kay is leading him again.
3. The following scenes provide the setting for Marc's domestication - Marc and Bettina having sex, and them moving into the home by her parents with relatives helping, the topping element is the recorded baby messages - "Dad is prod of you. Dad and Mom will always be here for you.."...hmm
I think at this time he still feels “domesticated”, safe inside the boundaries of the life he’s always known.
4. The scenes with the couples bowling provide another state of happy domestication, until Kay and his date arrive..
Marc’s face shows absolute panic, as if everyone will somehow sense what happened between them.
5. I agree 100%, later when Kay wants to lite a smoke, he easily reaches into Marc's pocket, the grabs his bare hand (not sleeve) to lite the smoke.. that's telling that Kay's becoming more bold and Marc more comfortable (somewhat) with Kay's physical contact. Did you notice the look / gaze Marc gives Kay after casually glancing around to see if anyone else was watching.. The strong gazes by both at the...I can easily see the wheels turning in Marc's head at least wondering about Kay.
One of my favorite scenes and played so well by both men. Right, Kay is so at ease, just taking a cigarette from Marc’s pocket, grabbing his hand – not asking for a light this time, just taking it – and holding it as he lights his cigarette, that's a
very intimate gesture. Marc is aware of every move Kay is making, and the eye contact – smoldering! You can tell Marc is surprised when Kay just walks away – something in him wanted more. And Kay knew
exactly what he was doing – what a cocktease; Max Riemelt quietly played this to the hilt.
6. During the running scene where Kay eventually catches up with Marc and Marc becomes defensive but not saying no to Kay's advances, again we see Kay acting in independent mode. After the brief masturbation encounter, Marc "freaks" and darts off running faster than ever, never mind returning Kay's favors.
Do you agree with some of reviews out there, that this was “abuse” or “almost rape”? I find that a particularly offensive comparison. But yes, he is freaked out by his own desires for Kay. I found it interesting that, unlike Ennis, he is able to look Kay in the eye, even after something so intimate.
7. Marc's commander assigning Marc to "take Kay under his wing" is ironic with Marc acting like WTH... he starts denying he really knows Kay immediately - is that telling?
Very telling – even the way he answers Frank’s question “I thought you knew him at the academy?” Marc’s answer: “yeah, so?” means, we were there together but I don’t know anything about him.
8. In the lockroom after the showers, Is Marc really angry with Kay for showing up or frustrated that he cannot put those feelings behind him and move on now?
When Marc grabs Kay and slams him into the locker? I think both: angry with Kay for showing up and himself for having feelings he doesn’t want to have. And seriously, how fucking cool is Kay? The look on his face doesn’t change, even when his head hits the locker! Pure 100% confidence.
9. After Kay shows up to bowl with his date, it's interrupting Marc's domestic bliss again. Once Kay learns that Marc's an expecting father, do the glances at the table and in while they are taking a leak change?
Marc is panicked when he first sees him. Did he want to keep his pregnant gf a secret from Kay? Then in the bathroom it’s as if he’s in charge now – “so. Now you know.”
What we did meant nothing.
The look on Kay’s face I can’t quite figure out. Disappointment, I guess.
10. At home, Marc disavows really knowing Kay, saying Kay was a PITA while Bettina thought he was "nice"... What does Marc's disavowing knowing Kay well here have on the situation? Obviously, Marc is stressing - seriously.
He’s stressing, but he can’t stop thinking about Kay and that forest thing, and he wants more but doesn’t
want to want more. He’s being torn in 2 directions.
11. After Marc meets Kay for the first time for "sex in the rain"... the are next scene both are in the car, both are shirtless and dressing. The eye work and glances as Marc departs the car are telling, almost accepting of what he just did, in face he seems a bit pleased. That is rapidly followed by Marc being the only late husband to their birthing class - oh no.
The scene inside the car was totally off for me,
until Mariska confirmed that Kay says “It was beautiful.” not "it was nice" like the subtitles read (thank you, Mariska!) Marc is trying to come to terms with what he did: called Kay and asked to meet him for sex. (Would love to know what he really said: want to jog in the pouring rain?) Then he gets dressed quickly, not a word, and starts to leave. Maybe I misread the look he gives Kay before he opens the door – it seemed somehow very smug to me. And Kay seems to be very restrained, just smoking his pot, chillin. Then when Kay says it was beautiful, Marc finally gives up some little smile of “acceptance” that it was. Ennis, all over again.
As for the birthing class, since I was so invested in the relationship between the 2 men, it took me a few viewings to realize that he was there to learn how to “breathe evenly” with Bettina.
12. I agree, Marc taking the phone call and then whispering and leaving the room would raise suspicions from almost anyone.. what call is Bettina suppose NOT to hear?
Yeah, rookie mistake. He certainly could have said it was somebody he was going jogging with, but to say it was Frank – she knew immediately that he was lying.
13. The next scene comes as a surprise where Marc and Kay are jogging and Marc is outright playful.. does that mean Marc has accepted his attraction to Kay?
This is where the lack of a clear time frame throws me a little. Is this after breakfast the same day? The next week? Have they been together since the car scene? He seems very relaxed and accepting of what he fought so hard against, it would be nice to know how he got there so fast.
14. Now we are shown the first "all bare" sex scene with Marc and Kay at Kay's apartment. The scene is quite intimate and shows the real connections between Kay and Marc. At this point, Marc seems fully accepting of his attraction and feelings for Kay. We've gone from a casual contact to masturbation to full sexual intimacy. That's a lot for a "straight guy" to absorb.
Again with the time line, we don’t really know how long it took to get there. He is
very relaxed, seems totally giving (which I loved) – until they get out of bed. Although the scene on the balcony is lovely and Kay seems to be totally in love (the way he looks at him! *sigh*), Marc is more reserved, more detached. “Ever want to leave it all behind and start over?” “Not really.” It’s like he’s using Kay.
15. This is where Kay asks Marc "Has he ever thought about leaving it all behind? Leaving and starting over?" Marc's response of "No, not really." informs me that Marc believes this is a limited engagement with no long term feelings - at least at this point. During this same conversation Kay offers Marc a key to his apartment and Marc accepts, that's a 180 change from what we expected - really? But Marc does seem content - happy..
Yes, exactly, short-term on Marc’s part. I wonder how many times he used that key. So much of their meetings is left to our imagination. Did he go over every day after work? Where else did they meet?
16. Next we see Marc blatantly lying to Bittiana about not wanting to have sex, followed by a sharp juxtaposition of Kay and Marc dancing in a gay bar, drugging it up a bit.. .
Now see, I thought he just couldn’t get it up because he couldn’t stop thinking about Kay and Bettina just turned him off completely. But it could have been a lie to cover up.
17. The next few scenes we are rapidly torn between the two choices: Marc and Kay or Marc and Bettina - over quite a few intense moments. One sexual and another in raw anger. Then we whisked away to the joy (and fear) of the birth of Marc's son, then back to anger with the road rage and a flat out denial by Marc, that he's gay - violent in fact. Also, notice during the locker room how Kay is an outsider and Marc glances to see if Kay is the least bit happy for him with the birth of his son?
What did you think of the club scene? I didn’t like it at first, but now I love it! They’re both kind of dorky out there, but they look so cute and in love. Even Marc, rubbing Kay’s shoulder and his hand on his neck; and he’s having so much fun! Something he’s not having at home anymore. When Kay brings out the pills, I thought it was Viagra so they could make love all night, but consensus is it’s xtc, and I guess that’s right. Kay is such a bad influence!
In the locker room, Kay does seem to be an outsider; but I didn't interpret Marc's look at Kay as checking to see if he's happy for him. I thought Marc was wondering how it affected Kay, maybe one of the few times Marc actually thought of Kay's feelings. IDK, I could be wrong.
18. During the road rage, did you notice Marc's expression after punching Kay and right before getting back into his car and speeding off, when you notice the down hill sign I might add.. It's almost one of regret.
Absolutely! Noticed the hesitation as he opens his car door after the punch, as if he's fighting going back to Kay. And the downhill sign. There is so much feeling in that scene, Hanno Koffler was very good. He’s so emotional, he’s fighting such a battle within himself – excellent acting.
19. Now for one of my favorite scenes. Next we see Marc's life of domestication, surrounded by toys, he's cleaning up the paint he knocked over earlier during his fight with Bettina. It's here he realizes that maybe he did have stronger feelings for Kay. Review the look on his face. He's overwhelmed with sighs and an almost sick feeling on his face. This takes me back to the kneeling scene in BBM with Ennis in the alley.. all the regret come flooding in.
Again, agree 100%, the alley scene. He can’t breathe, he can’t concentrate even on a mundane task, he can’t get his mind off Kay. He has made the rule, told Kay to stay away and he does. But now Marc can’t take it.
On another note, every time I see that scene, the sound of him scrubbing the carpet makes me think of the Geico commercial with Maxwell the pig: Boots & pants! Youtube it (or not, if you don’t want to laugh at the beginning of the scene!)
20. During the next few scene, are when Kay is outed - the rage, disappointment and homophobia abound. Marc is wondering if "anyone else knows he's been spending any time with Kay..." The bus ride also shows that Kay is now alone, the eye contact, the lack of eye contact, the rage in some of the eye contact. Marc is trying to determine who's on which side here... again he's afraid someone knows or will at least be wondering...
Very well put. Did the director put Limpinski next to Marc on purpose? On the same side? And Britt. I liked her character.
21. OK, maybe I spoke too soon - the next sequence takes me to the "I wish I knew how to quit you..." BBM scenes. This is the FIRST time we've seen Marc assume the lead, the initiative - only when he's threatened and his life and his secret is threatened. Here he's lying in wait for Kay. When he confronts Kay about being outed, he accuses Kay of perhaps wanting to BlackMail him followed by anger followed by the ILY and breakdown / hugs. It is at this point that Marc realizes he's trapped with no way out. Does he accept his domestication with Bettina and his son or be happy with Kay?
Yes, the WIKHTQY scene, with Ennis breaking down. Very powerful and well played by both men. “Lying in wait”, excellent way to put it. Marc totally detaches himself from his feelings in the beginning of the scene, and tries to go on the offensive. And this is the most passionate that we see Kay, pushing him and getting in his face – just great acting. Did the ILY take Marc by surprise? Did he just think it was sex? It’s as if Kay’s feelings never entered his mind. One of the times in the movie you want to hate Marc (but can’t) and you really feel for Kay.
As an aside, they’re still raiding gay bars in Germany? Yikes.
22. The next couple of scenes stage the outing of Marc to his mother no less. Does this have deeper meaning? Why was Marc's mother picking him up and not Bettina or Marc's father? This is the 2nd time were Marc takes the initiative and grabs Kay's hand for a longer kiss "before mum arrives..." as it plays out, it is Marc's own desire which outs him to his mum. There's no keeping this quiet now.
Another time when I want to slap Marc. He’s sitting there at the hospital and what’s his reaction when he sees Kay? “Oh shit, not him again.” The heavy sigh and the arms folded on his chest, blocking Kay out. I hate that. But the way he looks up at Kay when he grabs his hand, it's gorgeous! Seriously. I mean, seriously. (Thank you, Hanno!) It shows his confusion; 1 minute he’s pushing him away, the next he wants him. It happens over and over again. But I guess that shouldn’t be a surprise. He’s changing (or trying to change) something that has been ingrained in him since birth. His whole life has been disrupted by this love.
23. The scene with Marc's mum waiting in the car plays out and is quite frustrating. Mum tries to place a "guilt trip" on Marc when implying she failed in raising him "to be like that..." Marc's response is quite surprising and shows Marc becoming more embolden, willing to stand up to mum... that's tough, maybe too tough.
I didn’t think she said she failed in raising him. She said she “didn’t raise him to be like that.” Which kind of doesn’t make sense to me. What hetero couple would raise their kid to be gay? Or straight, for that matter. What I mean is, you can't raise a child to be one way or another.
Yes, he did finally get a bit of a backbone and came down pretty hard on her. And how did he get home? He took a taxi to the hospital, he should have taken one home, instead of calling his mom.
24. Next, we see a calm bliss return to those who do not know but Marc, standing over the grill and bits and piece of his relationship with Kay coming out - Marc goes jogging with Kay, Why or How could Marc not notice that Kay was gay? All presumptive questions to which Marc is defensive, clearly.
Yes, back to the bland, boring, domesticated life. (Did they have to put him in an apron?) He does get very defensive: is this an interrogation?
25. Will someone please explain what the significance of the men / family raising the pole outside Marc's home? Gotta be a "new born" tradition Does it have high importance to the context. I read this scene as perhaps this is going to "blow over" until Kay show up, INVITED by Bettina but clearly not wanted to be there by the homophobic mum, dad and co-worker. Marc finally asks Kay to leave after finding Kay being cornered and confronted by Marc's parents. The whole scene reeks of the typical ..." we accept you (gays) but just not in my back yard.. " pathetic line of being. It is clear from this point that Marc's parents will never accept Marc being gay.
Yeah, not sure about the tradition of raising the pole with baby things on it. Now here Marc seems “back in line” with the domestic thing, seems very happy with Bettina and the baby – until he sees Kay. Why did she make a point of inviting him? To prove she wasn’t a homophobe? I love Britt in this scene, she’s so annoyed with Limpinski.
And yes, the parents’ reaction is as you said. I posted an interview with the director some pages back, and he addressed this issue: people will say they’re accepting of gays until it directly affects them, like a close friend or family member, then it’s a different story.
26. These next few minutes we see Marc descend into misery. He returns his key to Kay. Bettina leaves him and he's finally alone - no one but himself sitting outside drinking beers. Bettina's line about being almost afraid to hear the truth now is telling - she's figured it out but does not want to "know it"..
Here we get a little idea of how often Marc & Kay were seeing each other when Bettina says “All those night shifts. You weren’t even there.” And you can see the panic in his face and hear it in his voice when he tries to talk her into staying. He’s just locked Kay out of his life, and now Bettina is leaving, so he’ll have no one. Yes, she knows now.
The scene in Kay’s apartment when he gives back the key is so painful to watch. How can Marc detach himself from Kay like that? How can he see him bruised and not try to comfort him? (Well, he did try a little and Kay brushed him away, and Marc was okay with that.) Then “What about us?” He just puts the key down and leaves without a word. Damn.
27. Marc finally makes his first choice, save his family but his crude attempt at reconciliation with Bettina does not go well. Marc, notice he never answers Bettina's question about his sexuality? It remains open... which clearly is unacceptable by Bettina. Marc, then broken retreats into the only thing he has left, domestication and hope that Bettina will return and forgive - maybe. As I recall, again Marc is being selfish.. he dos not want to "lose both Bettina and his son"...does he ever say he's really sorry?
This is the only time in the movie I actually cried: when Bettina screams "What are you then?" Their voices had been so low and controlled, then she just loses it. Totally took me by surprise - again, great acting on her part.
Ok, that he “retreats into domestication” – an explanation to me of why he is shown mowing a yard, which clearly doesn’t need mowing.
I noticed that, too, he never says he’s sorry. Maybe because he’s not.
28. So what do you think of the shower scene? This is a bookend for the painting the nursery where Marc attacks Bettina only this time, he's the victim. How do you like it? You like it from behind? Show me how? So is Bettina's goal to humiliate Marc - is it anger? Is it love? What's she really trying to do here? This is raw and emotional. Starting out with a close up through the hazy shower curtain of Mark showering off the sweat from his run and ending in what you almost think is OK but then Bettina remembers, it was a man - how this be and clearly rejects Marc again even alone, sitting naked in the shower...
I didn’t see it as a bookend for the painting scene, but I guess it could be seen that way – both coming at the other from behind. And why did she wait until he was naked and in the shower? So he would be vulnerable? I think it pure hurt and disbelief – how can this be happening? - on her part. His being gay is as unthinkable to her as it was to him, look how long it took him to accept the idea that he wanted Kay. Very well played scene.
29. I've very glad they did not use the alternate ending, it was bad enough for Marc, who after the shower confirms his life with Bettina is over, decides now that well he can make it Kay - selfish prick... this is another "me, me, me" moment that plays out badly for Marc.
The alternate ending so wouldn’t fit with Kay’s personality. I never once saw in him hopelessness or despair, or dependent on Marc to the point of suicide. That would have ruined the whole movie, totally out of character.
30. So why does Marc provoke Gregor in the locker room? Is he trying to get himself beaten purposely? Is he trying to get enough evidence on Gregor to get him fired? Does Marc now just hate himself? Do we find clues in the next scenes of Marc dancing alone in the gay bar, doing drugs and wishing his pickup was Kay, but no, not Kay. Was Marc truly not gay and only in love in Kay?
To me, this is the “short dirty fight” that Ennis picks with the guy in the pick-up, after Thanksgiving dinner at Alma’s, when she tells him she knows the truth.
As for Limpinski: Is he a latent homosexual?
The scene in the bar is strange. Is he trying to recreate his time with Kay? Why take x? He was not a drug guy by any means, and it doesn’t work that fast, he was on that guy in a second.
One thing I did not like was when he raised his fist to hit the guy; another place where the director took it right to the edge and brought it back.
31. Marc's final reconciliation, this time with himself, surfaces while driving home. This reminds me of Jack's drive to Mexico - though for different reasons. Marc's clearly lost Kay and now must really face the music that he cannot live like this and will lose Bettina and his family. This is a tough scene to watch - especially if you've been there.
Yeah, very sad to watch. He knows he’s lost everything, he knows it’s his fault, he’s facing up to his responsibility in hurting Bettina and Kay. Shit, is right.
32. The final sequences book-end nicely with the opening. But why has Marc returned to the academy - to be retrained in something else? Did he fail some test and be sent back? Was it his choice? This is unclear. What is clear is when Marc enters the empty room, sits and clearly remembers his time with Kay. When Marc pulls from the middle of the pack, becoming the lead, he's no longer afraid is he? This time he's in shape is embolden confident and is ready to live a life, a different life than last time - only perhaps a lonely one.
Yes, when he walks into the room they shared together everything must coming rushing back, all the memories.
The bookends of beginning and end were great. I thought the unit trained on the track and in the gym, etc, that’s why he was back on the track, just a normal training run to keep in shape. But now he can “breathe evenly”.
Great movie, tied with Brokeback for my #1. Thanks, Vincent, so good to finally talk about this with you and Mariska. I'm totally surprised more people here haven't gone out of their way to see this.
