Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
monimm18:
Barb, I was waiting for your reply! After seeing your post on TOB, I was aching for the Shakespeare/classical tragedy reference to pop up here. Like I said on the OB, the tire iron would definitely be the type of ending worthy of a great tragedy.
I always believed in tire iron version, almost even in the story, but kept telling myself it's an ambiguous issue, subject to interpretation, because so many people here, whom I trust intellectually argued for the tire accident, and because I forgot that, in great literature as in great films, things are not bluntly stated, but suggested and implied.
I think Rontrigger said something on TOB that finally cleared my position on this issue.
Rontrigger: I once posted this on a thread dealing with this "Accident/Murder War" that ended up with hundreds of posts: I know full well that the accident is the less likely of the two scenarios--murder is more likely. But I am so emotionally caught up in these characters that I want desperately to believe that Jack was taken away suddenly and never knew what happened.
I realized that was the only reason why I would consider the accident as a possibility - too hard to believe that Jack had to endure all that hate and brutality on top of the physical pain before his death. It's a much uglier death than one bears to imagine, I think. The problem is, that's a subjective way of looking at things - it didn't happen, because I can't handle the truth (couldn't think of a better phrase, sorry.).
So, I'm firmly in the tire iron group... But, not trying to convince anyone to change their mind. :)
ednbarby:
I know. I can't handle it, either. The truth really is unbearable.
I think realizing that truth from Ennis' point of view in the end is what made weep so much, I thought I'd asphyxiate from it during the Lightning Flat scenes the second and third times I saw Brokeback in the theater. And it's what made me start sobbing in the midst of singing "...And when no hope was left in sight on that starry, starry night, you took your life as lovers often do" to my son the night after the day I saw it for the first time.
delalluvia:
Still ambiguous.
Whether Jack died by tire iron or drowning (tire rim didn't kill him) doesn't lessen the idea of the tragedy. The Argonautica was a Greek tragedy. How Jason died at the end was mundane. He was crying in the shade of his old rotted boat and it fell on him and killed him.
The story is STILL tragic regardless and so is BBM.
The last line of the short story shows that even Ennis has his doubts.
There was some space between what he knew and what he tried to believe...
monimm18:
OK, Del, you're gonna hate me for this one, but I had to do it, not to argument my tire iron theory, but because too many times I see these two literary forms mixed up in people's arguments. The italicized parts are from Wikipedia, my own Encyclopedia and Able Media :
Tragedy: form of drama in which a noble hero (the protagonist) meets a fate inherent in the drama's action.
Drama: a composition presenting a story in dialogue, to be performed by actors; a play.
Or:
Greek tragedy - a literary composition written to be performed by actors in which a central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. Tragedy stresses the vulnerability of human beings whose suffering is brought on by a combination of human and divine actions, but is generally undeserved with regard to its harshness. This genre, however, is not totally pessimistic in its outlook. Although many tragedies end in misery for the characters, there are also tragedies in which a satisfactory solution of the tragic situation is attained.
Tragedies are plays that have a common theme: humans dearing to defy the gods, fate, or societal order, and being punished for that, by paying with their own lives or losing those dearest to them. The punishment is usually administered in a symbolic or very dramatic fashion - suicide, violent death, etc.
"Argonautica" is an adventure, or epic poem, not a tragedy, even if it has its gory and tragic components. It's a collection of several adventures, with one (in this case) or more central characters at its core, like the Odyssey and the Iliad.
An epic is a long poem which tells a story involving gods, heroes and heroic exploits. Since the epic is by its very nature lengthy, it tends to be rather loosely organized. Not every episode is absolutely necessary to the main story and digressions are not uncommon. You will notice how different in this regard is the genre of drama, in which every episode tends to be essential to the plot and digressions are inappropriate.
*running for cover*
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: monimm18 on April 06, 2006, 09:21:21 pm ---OK, Del, you're gonna hate me for this one, but I had to do it, not to argument my tire iron theory, but because too many times I see these two literary forms mixed up in people's arguments. The italicized parts are from Wikipedia, my own Encyclopedia and Able Media :
Tragedy: form of drama in which a noble hero (the protagonist) meets a fate inherent in the drama's action.
Drama: a composition presenting a story in dialogue, to be performed by actors; a play.
Or:
Greek tragedy - a literary composition written to be performed by actors in which a central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. Tragedy stresses the vulnerability of human beings whose suffering is brought on by a combination of human and divine actions, but is generally undeserved with regard to its harshness. This genre, however, is not totally pessimistic in its outlook. Although many tragedies end in misery for the characters, there are also tragedies in which a satisfactory solution of the tragic situation is attained.
Tragedies are plays that have a common theme: humans dearing to defy the gods, fate, or societal order, and being punished for that, by paying with their own lives or losing those dearest to them. The punishment is usually administered in a symbolic or very dramatic fashion - suicide, violent death, etc.
"Argonautica" is an adventure, or epic poem, not a tragedy, even if it has its gory and tragic components. It's a collection of several adventures, with one (in this case) or more central characters at its core, like the Odyssey and the Iliad.
An epic is a long poem which tells a story involving gods, heroes and heroic exploits. Since the epic is by its very nature lengthy, it tends to be rather loosely organized. Not every episode is absolutely necessary to the main story and digressions are not uncommon. You will notice how different in this regard is the genre of drama, in which every episode tends to be essential to the plot and digressions are inappropriate.
*running for cover*
--- End quote ---
Not at all, mon. ;D I stand corrected. However, I will dispute that dropping any classic references, the Argonautica is not a tragedy. It is certainly not a happy-ending type of story/poem/adventure tale or slice-of-life adventure, so taken in that vein, the tale of Jason and Medea and his family is a tragedy.
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