Post-Divorce Scene

[dly64]

Hmmm. I think the reunion was pretty unusual for Ennis. It was a release after four f***ing years of loneliness and confusion and not knowing what had happened to Jack after that summer. And Ennis had time to anticipate the reunion, the whole time between when he got that postcard and when Jack showed up. We got to see Ennis waiting that whole day, flicking his lighter and drinking beers and waiting and listening and waiting some more. And presumably Ennis was thinking about the reunion long before that day arrived.

But would Ennis react like that again? I think Ennis was scared by the intensity of the reunion, by his own lack of control. For Jack, that reunion kiss seems to have been a dream come true, but for Ennis... it's a warning  that they can't be in public together. I'm not sure Ennis would have allowed himself to lose control again.

Mel - you posted this at about the same time I posted my note. I think we are on the same wave length.

[nakymaton]

"If this thing grabs hold of us at the wrong place, wrong time -- we're dead."

Yep. Exactly.

Now that would have been a great scene. From an artistic viewpoint, of course. 

Purely artistic. Of course. *hums. looks innocent.*

Diane: yep. Definitely thinking along the same lines.

[Mikaela]

Jack expected Ennis to greet him by slamming him against a wall and kissing him until he saw stars.

  What can I say? I'd love that kind of expressive artistic vision. The fact that we didn't get it is another reason to mourn Ennis's and Jack's cross-purposes in the post-divorce scene.


I've been following this renewed Post-divorce scene discussion with interest and I have a few add-on questions that I'd be happy to hear some opinions on.

One is, I've always thought that once Jack starts talking in that scene, Ennis is or rapidly becomes entirely aware that Jack has not come up there for a weekend, or for a week - but that he's in fact come up to *stay* or at least to immediately make arrangements for the "sweet life". I beleive Ennis understands that Jack thinks Ennis has changed his mind about them having a life together" following the divorce. However much he only talks of the girls and his inavailability that one particular weekend in shooting Jack's airplane down out of the sky this particular time.

Is that how everyone sees it?


Then some time ago I had a discusion with Ruthlessly in the "Alma and her box  of crayons" thread, concerning exactly why Jack would think Ennis had changed his mind and why he'd be so elated when he arrived - ready for the sweet life to finally start. I was hoping for a discussion to develop at the time, but other events occluded the discussion on that and other threads.........   So I'm hoping perhaps for some comments now.

Now what I was pondering, and still am wondering, is *why* exactly Jack would think Ennis had had a change of heart - why he'd arrive in such a state of high hopes like never before? He must already have known the divorce was in the works, so that can't have come as a complete surprise - and more importantly he (IMO) largely if not completely understood the significance of the Earl story in Ennis's life and so would be aware that a major impediment to Ennis agreeing to live with him still excisted.

Ruthlessly argued that Jack fullly believed that the marriage was the main impediment to him and Ennis staying together, and that he didn't grasp the significance of Ennis's fear of being outed until that white truck passed by.

Instead of trying to repeat everything posted back then in my own words, I'll link to the posts:

My initial post on the subject: here

and Ruthlessly's reply: here

I'd be very interested to hear what others think. 

[nakymaton]

I think the problem that you and Ruthlessly were struggling with, Mikaela, comes from the change from the short story to the movie. (This movie is really exceptional in that its translation to the screen left few holes in the logic, and may, in the minds of many (*hi Katherine*) have resolved problems in the story.)

So in the story, Ennis actually calls Jack, on the telephone, to tell about the divorce. And that's just huge. That kind of change in Ennis's typical behavior could very logically explain why Jack would think everything had changed.

But the movie changed that phone call to a postcard. And yeah, that moves the communication into the realm of typical Ennis behavior. And yeah, it does suggest that Jack really didn't understand Ennis very well. Which conflicts with my impression of the characters elsewhere in the movie. (Though I guess Jack misjudges Ennis's reaction to being told that the summer is ending early, there on the mountain, so maybe I'm badly overestimating Jack.)

Edit: I kind of like the idea that, somehow, Ennis let a bit of his loneliness out onto that postcard. I don't know what he could or would have said, though. It might not have taken much to have gotten Jack's hopes up.

Edit again... But I really, really like the idea of Ennis calling Jack, just that one time, and both of them being so thrilled at hearing each other's voice that a little of the energy of the reunion scene infused the call. (The emotional energy, of course. ) Though... well, I'm projecting. I've never been much of one to use the phone myself, but those few phone conversations I had with the other half of a long-distance relationship... yeah, I would have driven 1200 miles with no other invitation after them.

[serious crayons]

I see that I didn't contribute anything substantial to that discussion, but I remember disagreeing with Ruthlessly about this somewhere, too. Even if Jack took the Earl story at absolute face value -- Ennis saw a guy get tortured to death for living with a man, so he must be scared to do it himself -- you'd think that would be enough for Jack to realize that marriage wasn't the only obstacle to overcome with Ennis. And when you give it any deeper thought, you realize that's probably just the tip of the iceberg: Ennis was raised by a dad capable of torturing a guy to death for living with a man, so he's probably got a pretty messed up view of his own sexuality.

Now, Jack hasn't seen as many Oprah episodes as I have (figuratively speaking). But he's probably spent more time thinking about Ennis than I have (is that possible? Yes, though only because Jack's been doing it for years and for me it's only been since January). So you'd think it would have dawned on him that divorce isn't the only thing Ennis has to deal with.

Mel has a good point; in the story, with a phone call, it makes no sense at all. After all, Jack would have reacted to the news in some way on the phone, and Ennis would have reacted in some way on the phone -- somehow there'd be enough communication between them to prevent the whole debacle. (To give Annie a break, this is such a throwaway line in the story that she may not have thought all the implications completely through, whereas in the movie it's much more fleshed out so they had to imagine how a phone call would work and realize it wouldn't.)

Nor can I really picture Ennis writing a postcard with no information on it but that, which would have made it seem more significant. So I think it was more like, "Fish should be jumping next month. Alma and me got divorced." Ennis thought he was just adding a bit of newsy info, Jack maybe thought it was code for, "Yay! I'm free!" The fact that it's in a postcard might make Jack think Ennis was deliberately being low-key and discrete.

[nakymaton]

Mel has a good point; in the story, with a phone call, it makes no sense at all. After all, Jack would have reacted to the news in some way on the phone, and Ennis would have reacted in some way on the phone -- somehow there'd be enough communication between them to prevent the whole debacle.

Actually, I thought it made more sense in the story. But you're right; presumably both men would have reacted in some way. (Though, I wonder... if they hadn't ever spoken on the phone to one another, would their excitement in hearing each other's voices have gotten in the way of the actual information being communicated?)

I figured that the reason that the phone call was changed to a postcard in the movie was to make the phone call between Ennis and Lureen more powerful. In the story, we don't learn about the post-divorce call except as a side comment around the (much more important and emotionally powerful) call after Jack's death. The movie had to keep the emotional power while showing most events in real time. (And it did an amazing job, too, with things like the punch and the post-divorce meeting.)

(And throw-away line?? Girl, those are fighting words... Sorry. That line in the story absolutely devastated me and literally kept me awake at night for a week. Seriously.)

[serious crayons]

(And throw-away line?? Girl, those are fighting words... Sorry. That line in the story absolutely devastated me and literally kept me awake at night for a week. Seriously.)

You're right. Sorry. I should have said "mentioned in passing" or "seemingly offhand" something like that. Of course, nothing in the story is really throwaway or offhand. Tell me, though, why did that particular line devastate you for a week? You mean because you were haunted by the image of Jack driving all that way, full of hope, for nothing?

And I know this sounds like a book-club question, but: What do you suppose Annie's reasoning was, from a storytelling perspective, for mentioning things like the phone call and the punch in such a SEEMINGLY offhand way, long after their actual occurence?

[Rutella]

The divorce scene pains me so much sometimes I have to watch it through my hands. And the line in the story (which I read after seeing the film) killed me too and it is one of the lines that after I read it I have to stop for a bit and recover before moving on.

I think in the story the mention of the phone call is painful because it comes in the middle of a really traumatic bit so it hits you again and again in the stomach with all the stuff you are suddenly seeing. And maybe its a bit how as people have mentioned that during the film there's often a feeling that you, the viewer, is spying on the boys, and in the story the reader is made aware only at the end that other stuff has gone on between the boys that hasn't been mentioned.

And just as you watch the film again and again to get all the stuff that you don't realise the first few times, so when you re-read the story that line which is almost lost in amongst all the angst of Ennis calling Lureen glares at you.

I'm quite tired so I'm not sure if any of this is making sense but I know what I mean. And now I feel so depressed I'm going to have to read some happy ending fanfic before I go to sleep......   

[dly64]

Gosh, guys. Don’t get me going on what I consider to be the most gut-wrenching scene … the post-divorce. This scene has always been the hardest for me to watch … and it hasn’t gotten any easier after numerous viewings.

I have always thought (maybe simplistically) that Jack thought Ennis had opened himself up to having a life with Jack by getting the divorce. That’s a bit wordy. But to break it down …. when Jack and Ennis reunite, one of the roadblocks Ennis puts up his is “life in Riverton.” Obviously, Ennis exposes the real reason why he won’t have a life with Jack … the fear of retribution. But now we are twelve years down the road. Ennis is finally free from his marriage. Maybe Jack sees Ennis as taking steps to extricate himself from a dreadful and lonely existence … the divorce symbolizing a new beginning. Needless to say, Jack finds out in an extremely painful way that nothing has changed. Everything is status quo. And it is then when Jack’s dream dies.

[Wayne]

I've somehow gotten the impression that Aguirre knows Jack's mother. I just think he speaks relatively respectfully there - as if he knows who Jack's ma *is*, and feels especially obliged to do her a service and convey a message himself after having talked with her. It's not entirely impossible that they knew each other once upon a time, is it?  As we later learn, Jack's mother *is* a woman who inspires respect and kindness even in quite gruff guys (unless they're her hubby). Aguirre knowing Mrs. Twist from before might be one reason why Jack was hired on the first year. Might even be the reason why Aguirre holds back from letting Ennis and Jack have it after he discovers them in flagranti.

OMG!!! Aguirre is Jack's faaather!