Author Topic: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie  (Read 184261 times)

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #150 on: March 02, 2008, 11:55:42 pm »
Many Brokies have said they think the tattoo girl is too conspicuous -- especially as one of only a handful of people on the dance floor -- to be just some randomly chosen extra. In other discussions, we've tried to figure out whether Ang Lee meant to say something by casting her and, if so, what.

My favorite explanation is that she emphasizes Ennis' paranoia. Nobody is paying much attention to this unusually tattooed woman (never mind that in a real life small-town tavern, even today, she'd probably draw some glances). And if they aren't concerned about her, maybe Ennis is overreacting to his fear that people on the pavement "know" or even give a damn what he's up to. After all, nine out of 10 of them don't even know where he lives!

Other theories: 1) Like Ennis, metaphorically, she is wearing a costume or "disguise." 23) Her presence indicates it's kind of a dive bar. 3) She shows that times are a-changing, and people are becoming more accepting of differences.



Crayons, You have raised a good point that there are reasons to think that the tattooed girl is not an error on the part of the filmmakers.

I have to say that her tattoos are so obvious that it certainly is in the realm of probability that she was placed in the scene, tattoo's and all, for a reason by Ang Lee. I find it difficult to believe that a production company which got so much right, could let this glaring error go by. If she was placed there deliberately and meant to suggest either "Ennis's paranoia", or that the late 1970's were transitional times, then that obligates us to think of the scene in metaphorical terms, not in terms of a realistic portrayal of what such a dive would really have been like in 1970's Riverton, WY.

And that begs two questions:

1-when do we think about the production values in BM in metaphorical terms?

and

2- When do we fall back on relying on excellence of a realistic portrayal of that period?

The answer I come up with is that it is an individual judgement call based upon our own experiences and knowledge.

Part of the reason my sister and I  began appraising BM critically for continuity and verisimilitude errors back a year ago, is that this question about how to interpret film interests both of us, especially me. And because we both grew up in a rural area similar in many ways to Riverton and Childress, in the same time periods, my sister being closer to the time period when the story opens, I came along a bit later, we knew that we were able to easily spot inconsistencies. 

Last year, an excellent film : "Elizabeth : The Golden Age" was released from director Shekhar Kapur. For those who are not familiar with the film, it is a costume drama set in the middle period of the reign of Elizabeth I of England, during the time of the Babbington Conspiracy and the attack of the Spanish Armada. The film was released with a director's commentary that is very helpful in understanding the work habits of Shekhar. He explains that the film evolves from a straightforward historical drama into an "operatic" phase at the end. Much of the drama towards the last 30 minutes is beautiful stylization without a determined attempt to keep to verisimilitude. We are very fortunate to have the commentary of Shekhar as he explains his work habits as a director better than most director's commentary tracks do in other films.

I wish that Ang Lee would make a gift of a new released director's track on DVD to answer many of the questions that we have about the film.  Meanwhile, maybe like Freud said, "a cigar is just a cigar" or maybe it is an exciting metaphor about something else entirely.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #151 on: March 03, 2008, 12:40:19 am »
Quote
I wish that Ang Lee would make a gift of a new released director's track on DVD to answer many of the questions that we have about the film.  Meanwhile, maybe like Freud said, "a cigar is just a cigar" or maybe it is an exciting metaphor about something else entirely.
 

It is unfortunate that we do not have a director's cut with commentary from Ang Lee. or a book about the film with his writings. But, we do have a book about one of his previous films Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and from his writings in that book we can learn a lot about his thinking and how he uses film images and plot to fill in some of the gaps between movie and story. The book CTHD: The Making of a Film has several chapters that are enlightening. One tells about his spiritual beliefs, such as the Tao Te Ching, and another chapter talks about the choices of costume throughout the movie. I did not find it difficult to extrapolate Ang's intentions in Brokeback Mountain from the similar treatment of CTHD.

There are several characters wearing masks in BBM. In addition to the tatooed lady, there is, of course, the rodeo clown. More subtly, Lureen dons a mask of cosmetics after she is hurt and disappointed by society and her loved ones.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2008, 12:46:51 am »
 

It is unfortunate that we do not have a director's cut with commentary from Ang Lee. or a book about the film with his writings. But, we do have a book about one of his previous films Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and from his writings in that book we can learn a lot about his thinking and how he uses film images and plot to fill in some of the gaps between movie and story. The book CTHD: The Making of a Film has several chapters that are enlightening. One tells about his spiritual beliefs, such as the Tao Te Ching, and another chapter talks about the choices of costume throughout the movie. I did not find it difficult to extrapolate Ang's intentions in Brokeback Mountain from the similar treatment of CTHD.


Front Ranger!

Thank you for that reference, I  have a DVD of CTHD that has an interesting director's commentary with additional commentary from the principle actors. We can hope that some day soon, a director's cut commentary with the deleted scenes will be released. Frankly, it surprises me that one has not already been released. There certainly is a market for it, and I hope that one was put together before Heath Ledger's death, I would certainly have been very interested in his thoughts on the movie, scene by scene.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #153 on: March 03, 2008, 05:08:48 pm »
I find it difficult to believe that a production company which got so much right, could let this glaring error go by. If she was placed there deliberately and meant to suggest either "Ennis's paranoia", or that the late 1970's were transitional times, then that obligates us to think of the scene in metaphorical terms, not in terms of a realistic portrayal of what such a dive would really have been like in 1970's Riverton, WY.

And that begs two questions:

1-when do we think about the production values in BM in metaphorical terms?

and

2- When do we fall back on relying on excellence of a realistic portrayal of that period?

Good point, Broke.

I can't see the tattooed lady as a "mistake" in the sense of an inadvertent slip that no one noticed or realized would seem odd. Spilled peanuts and anachronistic vehicles aside, the authenticity of other sets, costumes and casting in the movie is too well executed for me to believe they would be oblivious on this one detail. Therefore I think her presence is deliberate, that she's there for a reason. And because the movie is packed with other subtextual meaning, I have no trouble accepting the possibility of some symbolic meaning for her.

But it's worth noting, as you have, that she seems out of place enough to disrupt the realism of that scene. And normally in BBM the metaphors are not jarring. For example, I think the horse that we see Ennis carving and the horse-with-rider he later picks up in Jack's room are both metaphoric, but they are also both perfectly natural in their contexts. The bear that Ennis encounters is loaded with symbolism, IMO, but then again a bear is not unexpected in that setting. Now if Ennis had encountered a giraffe ...  :o

So in that sense, I can see calling the tattooed woman a "mistake." She's placed there deliberately, and probably for a reason, but by standing out as unlikely in that context she disrupts the realism a bit and, at the very least, draws more attention than a symbol is normally supposed to draw.

Then again, I can't imagine any symbolic subtext for the peaches and cereal we see Bobby eating in the Thanksgiving scene, and it disrupts the realism of that scene and is distracting and baffling besides. So maybe they did occasionally just screw up.

Quote
I wish that Ang Lee would make a gift of a new released director's track on DVD to answer many of the questions that we have about the film.

Wouldn't that be great?

Quote
  Meanwhile, maybe like Freud said, "a cigar is just a cigar" or maybe it is an exciting metaphor about something else entirely.

I almost always lean toward "exciting metaphor." Maybe I should think a little harder about the peaches and cereal ...  ;)



Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #154 on: March 03, 2008, 06:16:42 pm »
Another baffling thing is "those soup boxes is real hard to pack." I've never been able to figure that one out!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2008, 07:36:39 pm »
Is this in Annie's story too?

Quote
    "those soup boxes is real hard to pack."     

Or just in the BM movie?

Hugs!

Offline Fran

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2008, 08:03:29 pm »
Is this in Annie's story too?

Or just in the BM movie?

Hugs!

Artiste,

The short story includes the lines: 

The sheep trucks and horse trailers unloaded at the trailhead and a bandy-legged Basque showed Ennis how to pack the mules, two packs and a riding load on each animal ring-lashed with double diamonds and secured with half hitches, telling him, "Don't never order soup.  Them boxes a soup are real bad to pack."


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2008, 11:29:52 pm »
Another baffling thing is "those soup boxes is real hard to pack." I've never been able to figure that one out!!



Ranger I think that Aguirre's employee is warning Ennis about the size of the bulk of the soup boxes, I am assuming that the soup would be dehydrated soup packaged  into boxes. There could be deeper meaning to the word "soup", I know I have heard certain bodily excretions referred to as "soup". and the word "packing" can also mean something within a sexual context as well.  any thoughts? 

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2008, 11:36:57 pm »

I think the horse that we see Ennis carving and the horse-with-rider he later picks up in Jack's room are both metaphoric, but they are also both perfectly natural in their contexts.





good point about the symbolism in the "horse with rider" toy and the carved horse, perhaps they are symbolic of unfulfilled childhood dreams, also you have just prompted me into seeing another piece of the film's palindromic structure. Ive got to update that thread one of these days.

 ;D

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Production Mistakes I think they Made on the Movie
« Reply #159 on: March 03, 2008, 11:39:00 pm »
Ranger I think that Aguirre's employee is warning Ennis about the size of the bulk of the soup boxes, I am assuming that the soup would be dehydrated soup packaged  into boxes. There could be deeper meaning to the word "soup", I know I have heard certain bodily excretions referred to as "soup". and the word "packing" can also mean something within a sexual context as well.  any thoughts? 

Well, I am at a loss here, but this line of thought is very interesting and seems to offer some answers where I never found any before!
"chewing gum and duct tape"