Our BetterMost Community > The Polling Place
Your age and your favourite cowboy
serious crayons:
OK, Rayn! You're right, everyone sees it in his or her own way. To clarify, I don't mean to suggest that Ennis' decision was "wrong" in some larger moral sense of right and wrong -- only in the sense that it was wrong for him and Jack, however well-intentioned, because it led to unhappiness. To me, it's not a matter of "allowing them to make their own choices." I really don't have any say in it either way. But if I were able to scream at the screen and have them hear me and respond, I would have suggested taking a different course.
And yes, in my view also Jack's death and the subsequent snuffing out of hope is certainly a big element in that "central tragedy" concept. But I can't say that I was as optimistic as you sound in the time leading up to that terrible news -- seemed like things were going downhill for a while. Though I would also like to think they would have improved without the death.
And I totally agree with this:
--- Quote ---I don't think it was a black and white situation for either of them. There is much room for nuance in the story and for the subtle shades of grey that often make human existence livable.
--- End quote ---
Rayn:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 22, 2006, 02:46:03 am ---...if I were able to scream at the screen and have them hear me and respond, I would have suggested taking a different course.
--- End quote ---
I understand about the "wrong/right" now. I wondered, but I agree now and I agree because if I were one of the two men, I'd be Jack, all the way. He tried so hard and suffered, really, for his love, while Ennis called most of the shots on where to meet and how etc, because of his fears.
If I were a movie watcher and could scream at the screen and have them hear me, I'd be standing and screaming with you latjoreme! We'd be screaming so loud for Ennis to live with Jack. It just crushed me that he couldn't do it, you know? But there it is;we can't fix it, huh?
Poor Ennis, poor Jack.
Rayn
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Rayn on May 22, 2006, 08:23:36 am --- But there it is... we can't fix it... huh?
--- End quote ---
Yeah, so I guess we gotta stand it. But I can't! That's probably why I'm here -- trying somehow to fix it.
Brown Eyes:
About the issue of the "central tragedy" in the film... Well, clearly everyone will see this differently, but to me it comes down to lost time.
By not living together they lost vast amounts of time together and, clearly, once Jack was dead the time is lost permanently. So, now Ennis's motto, "If you can't fix it, you have to stand it" becomes his "life sentence" so to speak. The tragedy for me is that they didn't fix it while they could. And in the end Ennis has to "stand" living without Jack for the rest of his life now that the chance of fixing it has passed him by.
And, as I posted above, the idea that they went to such efforts to live apart to appease a homophobic society (or even the homophobic society in Ennis's head) is a big component of that central tragedy. In an ideal world, honoring their love for one another should have taken priority over living fake lives to conform to societal pressures. Conforming to those pressures compounded the tragedy because it then impacted the women in their lives.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on May 22, 2006, 09:10:48 am ---The tragedy for me is that they didn't fix it while they could. And in the end Ennis has to "stand" living without Jack for the rest of his life now that the chance of fixing it has passed him by.
--- End quote ---
Well put :'(.
I think all of the things everybody has said here -- lost time, Jack's death, appeasing homophobes, missing chances, standing rather than fixing -- all are components of the movie's central tragedy. In using the term, I didn't mean to limit it or restrict it at all. The movie is tragic in a lot of different dimensions.
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